subaru1988

Yea, it sure is frustrating . I wondered why there was silicone on the threads. At the time I posted that, I had no clue whether those bolts went into the "water jacket" or what. It was on ALL the threads, so that's what I'm going to do too for purposes of tightening the bolts. I guess you put just enough sealer to fill the spaces between the threads. I'll go about halfway up since 75% of the bolt is in the water pump and not screwed into anything. I'm not sure what's going on with that hole. I can poke the back of the hole with a toothpick, but I can't feel anything. It does bottom out. I'm just going to treat it like it goes through. It's right next to the channel for the flow @ 11:00. Maybe it's the way I put the gasket on, I just don't know. I'm going to clean it all AGAIN, and go from there. Since I'm using sealant, I'm just going to reuse the gasket that I put on dry. I evidently bought the last new gasket in town, and that Aisin gasket frankly doesn't look bad at all. It wasn't even on there for 5 minutes. If it doesn't work, that's on me. It's not like I'm installing all the parts and taking them all off. I have a way I'm testing it, as I stated before. The pipe O-ring is the only thing that goes on and off, and I'm dunking that in coolant before installing, so hopefully it holds up. It doesn't leak.

I had a little time today to give it a shot, and the 11:00 bolt is leaking. I put sealer on the pump and the block side of the gasket, and I let it sit for 24+ hours. I plugged up the bypass and put the water pipe on, and I poured coolant into the pipe to get the pump full. When it was leaking, I pulled that bolt out, and it was almost as if the bolt DID go in the water jacket. It was WET with coolant and like a little stream coming out of the hole. This has me wondering if there is a flaw or some person (not me, as I stated WAY early in this, the threads & pump were loaded with RTV) overtightened that bolt and put a spot in that blind hold where coolant can enter. That hole, which leaked the last time, is right next to the water pump flow hole. The other explanation is that I somehow effed the gasket up, which after looking at it, I just don't see it. There was NO leak around the perimeter of the pump at all, and none at the 12:00 bolt this time. The other bolts were dry. That said, I'm going to get a few sacrificial bolts to line this gasket up with by acting as studs. 1) I'm using Permatex #2 as the gasket sealer; I've had good luck with it in the past. This time, I could try it on the threads. How much should I use on the threads? I've never had the need to seal threads before in a repair, and that includes an aluminum pump into an aluminum timing cover. Does it affect the bolt torque? 2)I had the original AISIN gasket on for less than 10 minutes with NO sealer. Is it possible to reuse it after it was wet with coolant if I coat it with a sealer? It's not damaged, it just got wet. It's dry now. I really don't think it should be necessary to buy a 5 pack of water pump gaskets. The Fel-Pro was oK, but of course coating it and waiting for the sealer to set destroyed it taking it off. I put the AISIN gasket on dry, torqued it down (too much, yes - up to 9lbs), saw the leak, and took it off. Would you use it? Sucks, but it's one bolt and figuring out how the coolant is getting into the hole. I know this whole project should have been over with weeks ago, but it is what it is. It's literally all that's keeping the car off the road..the timing belt job works fine

I had an M6X1.0 bolt from something else that had a bad head, so I cut the head off, threaded it in the short bolt hole, and I used my awl in the other hole to try to line it up. It still moved enough even with the sealer to feel resistance from the moved gasket hand threading the bolts until I propped the pump/gasket up a little to get the bolts more centered. It actually looks easy, but it wants to move around and that makes it tough. This was with the rad out and the grille off! To me, it's worth the extra 15 minutes to have a straight shot at it. It's 2 screws and 2 bolts. I'm letting the sealer set up to give it the best chance, so we'll see.

There's just a little corrosion on the block, but it seems more staining than anything else. MAYBE a few pits. Nothing obvious running my finger over it. The pump surface is nice. It's looks to be a nice quality water pump. I tried to keep the gasket in the right spot by using some small awls in two opposing holes. As I said, I used the gasket dry, so I had to have a way to keep the thing lined up as best I could. With a sealer, perhaps I can get it to stay in place better. I looked at my old gasket and I don't see anything obvious. When I put the new one on today, I did have to move it a little here and there to line up the holes, so I hope the sealer stayed even. I know some cars have aids to line it all up like nubs and studs....? *Edit- Last time, I put 9 foot pounds on them to see if going from 7 to 9 would help, and they torqued down OK. I just used my old bolts again because they should NOT touch the coolant. The bolts may have been a little overtorqued last attempt. As a matter of fact, I think the reason why the FSM doesn't state anything about the water pump bolt torque is that they expected you to use the "Torque Chart" for the engine and transmission. That says that an M6X1.0 bolt needs 4.3-5.1 foot pounds, so I did a little over 5 foot pounds and called it good. Maybe that's why my old pump's bolts seemed "loose" when I took it off. I guess if a bolt needed a different value, it would show it as it does the water pump pulley, etc. Good to hear it should be an easy fix. It's on, and I hope it all works. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

You're probably right about the RTV on the threads. From my understanding, if you have big pieces of it where it's not supposed to be, that may be too much. The way I see it is the gasket should be the barrier between the coolant and the threads, and it's not doing it..yet No helicoils or any thread repair from what I see, and I know 100% that a mechanic did the last water pump at 178K. It must have been an OK job for lasting 80K. Sad part is the timing belts were done at 177K. The next timing belt was at 232K with no water pump AND no tensioners done- just the belts. I have the receipts for most of it, and pretty much everything else starting at 10K, and it has 258K on it now. I'm done with the timing belt part of this "project". It starts right up and seems to run OK for the 10 seconds I ran it a few times. All it is now is cleaning it up again, getting a good seal on that water pump, and putting it back together after verifying that it doesn't leak. I don't want any coolant on that belt.

Whoa..That is bad. Guess there's hope for mine! I wasn't going to overtorque new bolts, I was maybe just going to try some new ones. I was thinking the threads might just be a little worn. However, as Step-a-Toe suggests below, it's really a joining issue, not a thread issue. You said earlier that the threads do NOT go through to the coolant, and I verified that myself when I cleaned out the bolt holes. I saw in the Haynes manual I have that M6 is 6 to 9 foot lbs of torque, so I gave 9 a shot, and it helped some but not enough. Next time with a thin coat of sealant on either side of a new gasket, I'll be back to 7.5 or so as you suggested earlier. I don't think 6 is enough torque for a water pump, and 9 didn't work, and trying more isn't worth the risk. You're right. The bolts don't go in to any coolant, so somewhere the coolant is getting to the bolts from around the gasket. I wondered why the garage that last did the water pump had RTV on the bolt threads, and now I know. Not so sure they had to use so much when others can simply use the dry gasket, so I'll try the happy medium with the sealer.

The 9 ft.lbs I wound up trying came from one of the EJ videos I watched. They were still 10mm bolts, yet they looked different in that they had a wider head. I'm glad to hear that you've worked on some beat blocks and still had them seal up. I know I can get it, it's just getting the right combo. The paper gasket should have worked, as you stated earlier, but time for plan B. Other than that, I would be driving the car as of yesterday with the timing belt job, new radiator (not exactly a drop in fit, FWIW!), and new water pump done. I think you're onto something with the whole RTV smearing deal. I guess it's the whole trying to compensate for the "if a little is good, more must be better" attitude. If I do use the gasket AND the sealer, I'll smear just enough on to cover the gasket on both sides and that's it. The sealer by itself, I guess a 1/8 bead is enough. Thanks for the input here and early on, it's must appreciated.

Good tip, thanks. I've seen some bad ones with water pumps for other cars. IMHO, the one I received with the Aisin pump was a "Subaru" gasket or at least the equivalent. It looks exactly like the OE gasket, right down to the color. Unfortunately, it didn't work right. I watched a few Subaru water pump videos on Youtube, and it made me wonder. The EJ? and other engines use 10mm water pump bolts, BUT they are flanged bolts from what it looks like. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, but I'm wondering if new bolts are worth a try. Mine are OK, but the threads have a little wear here and there. Then again, as mentioned long ago in my thread, the bolts do NOT (well, should not) contact the coolant in any way. I did a search and I haven't seen anybody really say they've used just the RTV by itself with no gasket for water pumps. I know doing that seems out of the norm, but I can't be the only one who needs to compensate somehow for block "wear".

Thanks for the reply! I guess the Aisin instructions are for the best case scenario. I know about that Permatex water pump product, and I really debated about using it. I thought I'd defer to the actual instructions that came with the pump and on their "Aisin University" video, but that didn't work out so hot. I guess what I'll do is get a new Fel-Pro gasket and use the sealant together. I've always done well with Fel-Pro on other stuff. I know people say the OEM gasket is the best, but if I'm going to use sealant on it to make up for block imperfections, what's the difference. I can't get it right away, and frankly, I'm sick of waiting for parts to come in the mail. I can source the Fel-Pro locally.

So about those water pump bolts...heh . Now I know why there was sealant of some kind clogging up the threads. I have things back together (not the covers, thankfully yet), I know the car will run as it started right up, but.. I have seepage/leak from the 10:00 and 12:00 water pump bolts with the car just sitting after merely filling the rad. I torqued them all around 7.0-8 ft. lbs before adding coolant, and yes, I torqued them in a star pattern. I also cleaned the mating surfaces REALLY well. After adding coolant, and seeing the slight leak, I decided to give them a tad over 9 foot pounds (Haynes manual says 6-9 for M6 bolts). It improved a little, but they still slightly "leak", and I'm not torquing them anymore. I don't need that headache. The whole coolant + timing belts = snap is what put me here to begin with. This is why I decided not to install the front covers until I know for sure it's ok- just in case. I'm super glad I have that flywheel tool since it will make putting it all back together when it's right not so tough. Any suggestions for options to get these to seal up? I installed the paper gasket dry, as that is what Aisin specifically says to do. The gasket is a nice quality gasket, so I don't think it's that. I THINK I have a little pitting on the edge of the 12:00 bolt hole, but not the 10:00. Anybody use a straight RTV bead with NO gasket? I'll get a new Subaru gasket with/without a non-silicone sealer if necessary, but if I can substitute all of that with a gasket maker, that's fine too. Anybody done that? Thanks!

That $1 Allen screw I replaced the toasted original with was literally make it or break it...Believe me The positive part about taking the dizzy apart was finding a thread on here about the whole electronic guts/bearing of it being easily available for 1/4 of what a "new" dizzy would cost. I wish it wasn't dragging out, but man..Putting new parts with filthy parts would just be wasting my time. It takes longer to order stuff, but the cost savings is literally unbelievable. I'll take a length of time badge, too

Quick update- It started right up with barely a crank . I was a little worried about the distributor, because I had to take the rotor "holder" off to do some work on it, but I guess if the actual electronics were damaged in some way, it wouldn't have started at all. I guess the timing is at 0, but I DID move the housing to where the bolts were at initially too. It seemed smooth enough for now, but it was only 10 or so seconds twice. It looks like I need to figure out how to clean the corrosion off of the test connectors, too. They're looking a little shabby. Anyway, I finger checked the tension of the timing belts after I ran it about 10 seconds, and then another 10 seconds sans water pump/alt/etc. The tension doesn't seem much different to me, maybe a little more slack. The PASS side is not as loose as it was when I started this whole process with the old belt. It's a huge step in progress, and I REALLY appreciate the help I've received from everybody.

Thanks! The green connectors are on the PASS side in the engine compartment, IIRC. Also if I hopefully get to the point that it's running again, when I connect those connectors, the fuel pump will be clicking, and it's supposed to do that, right? I felt I needed to take out the dizzy to look at it after I had the mishap with the rotor cracking the cap. There was an issue there, and I'm glad I took it out. Step-a-Toe pics really help with this, as does his second comment. He says that when he puts his flywheel at 20 BTDC, that's how his (not mine, I have the one with the disc) dizzy looks inside. To me, that means he sets his flywheel mark to 20 BTDC instead of 0 when installing a distributor. That's what I was trying to get at, I guess. From my understanding, even at 20 BTDC, the rotor should still be pointing somewhere around the number one post. Anyway, to keep it simpler, I'll do it the FSM way, and I'll put the hold down bolts where they were when I took it off since that position is marked exactly. Hopefully, that will be fine to work with to at least start the car for 10 seconds, check the timing belts, fill it with coolant, move the car to a different spot, and warm it up to finally set the timing with a light to 20 BTDC.

I went ahead and took the distributor out of the car to check it out for peace of mind. The screw (M5X16X.8 FWIW) that holds the piece the rotor screws to to the actual distributor shaft has seen better days, so I replaced it with a stainless one with an allen head to make it easier to take off if I have to. Let me rephrase..If I put the distributor back in as the FSM shows with the flywheel at 0 (and cam sprockets show 45 degrees on both sides, I guess) and the rotor then points to number one like in Fox's video, I can get my timing close to what it was when I took the distributor out by doing the above and then simply putting the housing where the hold down bolts were to begin with? It would be the same thing as me simply putting the mark at 0 to take the distributor out with the rotor pointing at 1 and then removing the distributor, right?

Interesting.. I checked it before trying to start the car, and it was barely above 12. I was mistaken yesterday. I have a 10 AMP/2 AMP manual charger. I put it on 10 AMP, and it was in the "engine assist" area on the ammeter for about an hour or so until it made it's way to between the half and full battery icons about..5 hours later. Your time frame for a full charge is right on! I checked it this AM, and it's just under 13 volts. I hope this is the major issue, because I installed those belts to the TEE using the great instructions in this thread, and one would think it should at least sputter to life. When you do this start without the water pump and alt, it's OK to just leave the alt wires in the air, right? That doesn't send an error to the ECU? Never done it before on a "computer controlled car", so I thought I'd clear it up.

I have the battery on the charger, so I'll see what that does. I also cleaned the grounds and stuck the wire that was on the radiator on the water pipe ground so it too is grounded. I didn't have the water pipe on yesterday, I grounded it right to the bolt on the block. I also checked the fuel pump connector just because, and it was connected. I thought maybe it worked loose getting unloaded after the tow. I'll take a look at another fuse I found in a search here yesterday. After all this, I'll try a teaspoon or whatever of gas down the bore when my battery is charged. I turned the engine by hand again, and the alignment marks are basically like the pics I posted yesterday. It turns fine, no struggles, and the distributor rotor turns fine too. It really has no wiggle side to side, and the screw IS in. The rotor moves the instant I turn the crank. I see from doing a search that it's not always a "dead nuts on" proposition with the marks. To me, my marks look OK- one's up, one's down, mark in the middle of the valve timing marks.

My battery shows about the middle of the gauge on the charger when on trickle for just a few seconds, so I'll give it some juice at 5 amps when I can monitor what it's doing. I got about 12.1 or a little over on a volt meter. Is it safe to assume I can just take the boot off the throttle body and pour a little gasoline down the throat like a carb (which I'm way more familiar with )? There could be a little parallax error in my pics, but either way, they don't look a "tooth off" or anything to me..but this my first time doing an EA82 timing belt, so there's that. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

Well, I had some free time today and the weather is cooperating, so I put the belts on. I had to work with the LH belt a little, and it's as dead on to 12:00 as I could get it- maybe 2 mm off, if that? RH belt was much easier, of course. One mark is at 12:00, one is at 6:00 on each full revolution with the housing mark lining up with the center mark on the flywheel. I tensioned the belts with a tool I made from a electrical box cover and some 1/4 inch bolts. I torqued the center bolt down on my "tool" to 50 lb ft. so it wouldn't release with my torque wrench, and it worked. Too bad I busted my distributor cap in the process, though. I took it off and laid it on the hoses just to see the rotor turn, and damned if it didn't fall toward the rotor, get wedged between it and something else, and it put a huge crack in the stupid cap when I was turning the motor by hand! I don't think that would hurt the distributor...the cap is a lot less sturdy? EDIT- By a stroke of luck, I found a cap locally. Took each one of the old wires off, put them on the new cap. I thought I would do the "10 second run" for the belts without the water pump and alternator, and it's not starting. I'll post pics of where my holes/notches/flywheel marks are. I checked the firing order on the cap, and it's fine. I also looked at a few fuses that I thought the most logical, and those were OK. I'll try charging my battery tomorrow. When it conked out on me, I did try cranking it quite a bit, plus I used the starter to move the car off the road. There was also a little ground wire hooked up to the radiator that I didn't connect anywhere; I'll find a spot for that. Hopefully, it's something easy. Pic order- Driver Side, Passenger Side, Flywheel Marks Thanks!

Not sure what you meant by "bolt it in the opposite direction", but I get what you're saying about loosening the slide bolt and it pops into place. What I did was I used the top body of the water pump ( I tightened the bolts @ 7lbs, BTW) for a little leverage for my hands, pushed up with one hand and tightened the ratchet/socket I left hanging on the slot bolt with the other when I had it almost to the end of the slot. I really didn't want to pry on anything. Kind of goofy but it worked, and it looks like I have the clearance. I wonder if Kent Moore struck it rich with all of these "special tools" that the FSM and Haynes mention? I can see the flywheel stopper, but the other tools seem like luxuries? Anyway.. I have the crank pulley on and the mark on the LH side dead on, so I'm leaving the pulley on. I now can't really see the belt going into the oil pump sprocket ridges, but I guess I have to trust it is. I've been curious if anyone knows the torque for the pitch stopper bolts? I found 35/40 lb. ft. for newer Subarus. Does that sound right for an '88? That's one of those missing parts from the FSM that's online. Again, all the tips in this thread are much appreciated.

Quick update..I'm almost there. The mail order parts game is really great for saving money on these cars, not so much for saving time if there are order snafus, slow shipments, or crappy weather. In the meantime, I took the time to clean out all the bolt holes that I've used so I could thread by hand; it was worth the time, IMHO. The water pump holes were packed with a lot of RTV. I just couldn't see taking the time to do this job without cleaning it all up, including the much hated covers . I also flushed out the engine. Anyway, all I have left is to somehow raise the DRIVER side tensioner without that "special tool" to so I can get the belt on on that side. It seems like the PASSENGER tensioner is a piece of cake, so belt on that side too ASAP. I sure appreciate all the help. The FSM is great and all, but the tips I've received in this thread made a huge difference.

Yea, my passenger belt was in OK shape despite the fact that the pulley and belt wore a groove in the cover. Maybe that was before since this time the belts only lasted about 35K. It'll be one of my new spares. Believe me...I hear you guys about the covers. They've easily been the hardest (most time consuming) part of the job only in that that they needed to be REALLY cleaned out. I also had to work them with a Dremel to get the clearance back from them being warped. The pulley clears it fine now, so does the idler, and so should the belts. The shop who did the job last time more than likely cleaned nothing, and they put the covers on too damn tight. I was lucky nothing broke. The FSM says 3 pounds, not 10 pounds- the cover bolts were literally on tighter than the water pump bolts. I wouldn't mind leaving them off, but this car does winter duty with splashback from road salt, mag chloride, and all that garbage. I just don't know how the bearings and seals would hold up to all that corrosive stuff, not to mention the snow and water getting all over the belts and tensioners. I was lucky that I found an actual Kent Moore flywheel stopper to use. It worked GREAT, so taking the crank pulley off was nowhere near the worst part of the job, and it has me leaning to running without the front covers for a few weeks to make sure there isn't any funny business going on. I did the cam seals a few days ago, which was not bad at all. It looks to me they might have been done quite some time ago, because there were a few small scratches on the seal metal as if they'd been taken out. I used a screwdriver covered with duct tape to avoid that, and I saw the marks on the old seal. I used a 2.5 inch piece of PVC pipe to get the seals flush with the surrounding metal, and it worked nice. Looking to get out of a cold front here so I can flush out the coolant in the block the best I can, put the water pump, tensioners, and belts on so I can run it for 10 seconds or so to see where I'm at. Nice part is aside from the crank pulley and idler, I've taken everything apart with a 1/4 inch ratchet! Lots of room to work, too. Great pointers in this thread, I'm sure grateful for it.

Thanks.. Miles Fox's video shows him taking the seal out of the engine and replacing the actual seal on the engine over the cam. That's great if you have the engine out, but I don't think I can get enough hammer swing to "press" it in properly IN the car. Glad I asked first about using the bolts to pull the seal over the cam!

So after a shipping snafu put me behind, I finally received my cam seals. Quick question..Can the cam seals (not o-rings, obviously) be installed in the housing OFF the car? It seems to me like it would be easier to get them level with the surrounding metal off the car, and then use the bolts to draw the seal over the cam snout after tapping on the housing itself to get it started? Luckily, it just a matter of putting it all back together now. I know a lot of posters here don't use the covers, but I think I'll be putting mine back on. They are in OK shape, and I only had a few bolts that gave me any trouble, and I can use ZIP ties on that stuff. In the winter with all the mag chloride/salt/rocks and stuff on the roads, I just don't think I want to risk it. Thanks for all the tips.

Replacing a water pump every 15K seems odd to me. I mean, we have cars today that have oil change intervals at 10K. That's like doing a water pump every other oil change, AND you throw in the fact that the belts should last 40K? So that's two water pumps worth? I must be lucky, because I think my car is only on its 3rd water pump at 258K. I know one was done "because we're already in there for all this other stuff", which I understand to a point, but according to an old receipt I found, they weren't always $30 either. They did that, but I'm fairly confident I'm running the original cam seals. So much for "we're already in there" always being to the customer's benefit. After I swap out the cam seals, it'll be going back together. Two things I may also do "while I'm in there" are replace the dipstick tube o-ring and the o-ring on the radiator fan sensor. I sure am glad all these parts are cheap on the 'net, because this job would have been WAY more expensive parts wise locally. Now that I'm 60% through the job, I think the $350 paid last time for JUST a timing belt change with no tensioners or seals at all was a little much.

After waiting for my water pump and a few other parts, including a cheap tool that worked awesome for the sprockets (link below), I took the beltless sprocket off today to check the cam seal. I was hoping it was leak free like the passenger side, but it has signs of leakage, so I'll be going ahead and doing the seals and O-rings on both sides with the FelPro kit. The FSM shows a picture of the "pin" in the cam pointing to 12:00 (lined up with the head/valve cover) when you take the housing out. Is that what you guys do? Coat both with oil, except outside of seal, when installing, right? I'm hoping those bolts aren't TIGHT. I bought an Aisin water pump and it looks like nice quality and the hub height is right. Frankly, the gasket looks like the Subaru OEM gasket, so I don't think I'll use sealer on it, as the information paper with the pump specifically says not to. My mounting surface is in nice shape anyway. Anyway, here is the tool. Yes, you can easily make a version of the Y shaped tool. I made a sprocket turner with a piece of plastic pipe drilled through and 1/4 bolts. It worked great, but for $10 to hold the sprocket to take the bolts off, put them on, and maybe even take the slack out of the belts, how can you go wrong.. The smaller pins are practically an exact fit. I can probably use this for other stuff too. Sure, it kind of looks crude but feels like decent quality IMHO. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HFFR9RR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Thanks for all the tips!