RallyJusty

The realization... How much change can I do to the car before it stops being what it was, and starts being what I make? I have recently realized that I may have crossed that line. Granted, it started as a Justy, but has ZERO justy drive train. In fact it doesn't have anything Justy but the unit body from the firewall back. NO Justy interior remains at all, including the whole firewall and most of the floor panels. It has an Impreza engine, an '89 XT dual range tranny and rear end, double A-arm front suspension, and bits and bobs from about 8 other makes, and a roundy-roundy style fuel cell. The whole drive train and suspension are attached to the roll cage. I am using Ford Explorer Shocks as the base for all 4 coil-overs. The body is Justy from the firewall back, but forward of that it will be my imagination. The headlights I have for it are from a gen 2 Eclipse! What the hell do I call it? I am afraid that with the hardest part of the build behind me, this thing is going to be on the road sooner than later, and when that happens it will need a lineage. I want it to be a Justy, because who would dream of such a beast, But when did that end? For me, in hind sight, it was when the three cylinder made way for a four. I am rambling.. Am I building a Subaru hybrid, or should I leave this site and find a new one for junkyard beasts? This car is using mostly Subaru parts, but I doubt Fuji Heavy Industries ever saw this thing coming.

I do have autocad- send it on over, I'd love to see it. rallyjusty@comcast.net

The site is up, it just hasn't been updated for a while. you can find the address under my profile. All of the travel is 14.4 inches. Useable based on the rally tires on the car is about 10 to 12 inches. I have to set the steering toe-in and camber at it's final setting to get that number more firm. Things are very tight. I have been taking photos with a disposable camera since my digital camera Sh*t the bed. We picked up a new web cam so I can start using that.

In fact I put it on it's wheels today!, Of course they aren't actually supporting any weight, but thats only a little concern. See, it's now time to set the ride height. That's right, This thing is that far along! why only last july it was just a pile of parts. Now it's just a pile of parts that are slightly more organized. Anyway... Back end is easy, I am relocating the upper shock mounts and adding spring height adjusters. The front is kicking my arse! The whole thing is done now. the structure, engine and tranny, the upper and lower control arms, prop shafts, everything! In and done, and ready for action. Except the shocks.. No room. I thought it would be tight, but it is WAY tight. So, because I haven't done enough shade tree engineering (read sarcasm here), I think the only real solution is to cantalever the coil overs up front over the tranny, at the firewall (which right now is a big hole for all of the structural tubing). It does give me a chance to use all of the suspension travel because I can use a ratio in the pivot arm to shorten the spring stroke, but it means a bunch more welding and tubing. The other thought is to tie the shock to the lower control arm, and mount the spring on a hinged perch on the upper swing arm. It has to be hinged because of the short radius and long travel of the suspension arms. Cantalever or hinged perch...hmmm talk amongst yourselves, and then tell me what to do. I looked at the front end for an hour solid today, looking for options. Now it's your turn to say.. "Are you a freakin' idiot?!" or maybe.. " What the hell were you thinkin' when you started this?!" My wife says, " do whatever you want to dear." Do chime in, I am low on inspiration right now. If no one posts, you'll get my decision in next weeks update. Troy

Haven't posted an update in a while, so I thought I would do a bit of catch-up. Leroy is making slow but steady progress. I had to redesign ( again ) the upper control arms and tie points to over come a camber loss condition. I just finished building the new control arms, and will have them on tomorrow. I now have 14.4 inches of travel on the front without any camber gain or loss through the whole arc. I can dial in any amount of negative camber I want and it will be constant. That makes tire wear and traction very predictable, and will give very clear steering input and road feel. I also took the opportunity to relocate the steering rack. It should now give me nearly the whole suspension travel without any bumpsteer. In the end I had to back up a few steps to take 1 very nice step forward. The suspension has been a real drag on progress. I should have figured that out when I decided to build a new double A-arm front suspension from scratch. No easy task for me, but so far it's been damn fun. Next I am going to convert the shocks I bought into coil overs like I did to the back shocks. The mounting issues become so much more simple that way, and it's dead simple to do. I drew up a completion list and asigned time to each task, and came up with 910 hours remaining. I will try to pull it off a bit sooner. I filled up a roll of film on progress up to this point. When I get them developed I will post them on the web site. I made a new web page, but I haven't published it yet. Just waiting for new pics. no excuse now I guess. Except work, for some reason they want me to think about surveying, and not my car. Troy

Well, today I installed the second control arm and began to install the swing arms when I realized I needed the steering rack installed to get some of the geometry right. Turns out that the location of my new control arms, and the location of the left subframe conflict with the steering input shaft. Furthermore, the tie-rod geometry of the rack was fine for the strut style lower control arms, but is too short for the travel designed into the new suspension. The difference will cause some serious bump steer if I don't get the rack in just the right spot. It also means that until I procure a different style rack, that I will be limited to about 4 inches of total suspension travel up front. I know what I must do to fix the problem, but the solution just makes a new problem for my engine mounts. Still, the engine should drop right in when I get the steering rack problem fixed, the swing arms installed, and design some new space-aged way to mount the engine. On the other hand, my welding is getting sooo much better. Just needed to vent a bit.

What the hell is the deal with the Neon? Don't get me wrong, the posts have made me laugh. But big deal. A front wheel drive compact with a turbo. So what. Now I do think it is a handsome car. But stop a moment and close your eyes... Imagine that finest of the fine, the Justy. Simple lines, simpler drivetrain. The unassuming stance that belies it's thunderous 60 odd horses. It's one thing to talk smack about Chryslers finest, but throw down about the Justy and your showin' your colors! Let's not let this thread devolve into a tit-for-tat about weak domestic engineering verses a real giant killer in the Justy. Accept it folks, it's all about the Justy. Anything else is just a compact. Troy

Leroy has been under the knife so to speak just about every day. I have done a lot of CAD work to get the bugs worked out before I put any steel together. With the drawings and math all done, I have had to stand next to the car a lot. I walk aroung it and try to figure out how this part will effect how that part goes in. I have had to change the suspension because the starter motor was in the way. Little things like that. Sequence of construction is also important. Kinda funny how today I have to mount the racing seats to confirm some strutural tubing locations for the shock mounts. By the end of the weekend I think the whole front suspension should be in place, and the engine/tranny combo installed. Up to now it looks like I haven't done anything and so I haven't taken any pictures. Today I will and try to post them tonight. The drivetrain is tight and ready to fight. I decided not to turbo charge the EJ18 until I have the running gear all sorted. I have enough room to do it very easily after the fact and know the engine runs well right now. I'll fight the setup battle before I pick a fight with the turbo. Troy

I had no idea the justy was a controversial car. Just one more reason to love it. I have loved the posts however. needed a good laugh to end the work week, and begin the work weekend. The Rally Justy is coming along well. The new subframe is completely in and tied to the roll cage. The lower control arms are completed. I just completed the upper ball joint mounts for the stock hubs, and purchased new shocks for the front suspension. Will have about 10" of travel front and back when I'm done. It's really only a justy in spirit now. The drive train is from 2 different subarus,the shocks are from a dodge cummins and a ford explorer. But it is still a justy, just nastier. I haven't even bothered with the progress page in a month, but I should be getting new pictures up tomorrow. I have a goal to rallycross it in durango, co in the first part of april. If I do get it done, I need a raise. Troy

I was just floating through a few posts here bouts and read that some folks think the justy is an inferior subaru. I take issue with that statement. The justy is a fine little beast. Growth hormones at an earlier point in it's developement would have helped sure, but the runt isn't bad because it's small. The genes aren't all the best, but it isn't a chevette! Who would have thought of putting a lovely 3 cylinder in front of a magnetic tourque converter and a snowmobile tranny besides subaru? What it lacks in size it makes up for in small. They always win rollover contests because they don't even break the glass, and 2 people can pick it up or push it over. The justy is like that blonde headed cousin on the brady bunch. No idea where he came from, but there's no sense in kicking him out just cause he's goofy lookin'! Naw, I'll keep on playing with my justy. I think of it as my kinder, gentler subaru. and when I'm done with it, it'll kick the rump roast of any subaru silly enough to call it out... And it won't hold a grudge at all of the talk here, cause it's the nice car in the family.

thanks for the compliment! My engineering is very basic though. I made the adapter with a jig saw and my drill press! Nothing special there. I am going to get some pics of the work from this and last weekend up tomorrow. Look in to see the hole, the engine/tranny, and the subframe. It's all apart right now so that I can get the dimensions just right. It should start going together this week. Oh, I figured out how to get my CAD work onto the web page, that should show up this week as well. Troy

Just an update on the Justy. I cut out nearly the whole fire wall, and the whole tunnel. I needed to take out the old subframe, and all of it's related structural ties to build the new subframe, and the tunnel in order to make room for the seats. I want the seats to be lower and further back. The new gaping hole gives me great access to the engine bay components for proper connection to the rollcage. The new subframe is more like what you would expect in an off-road truck. It is very narrow. It runs just inside of the exaust header at the engine, just outside of the tranny, about 10cm under the front drive shafts, to a point about 15cm behind the tranny. It will tie to the front main hoop and dash bar of the roll cage and along the tunnel to the lower stiffener on the roll cage at the original bottom of the back seat. Should be very strong and have great torsional strength. I also picked up the upper and lower ball joints for the new suspension. I am using the stock XT lower ball joints, and four bolt type upper ball joints from a ford f-150. I picked up the bushings and bits to build the upper and lower A-arms, and now I just need to finish the geometry calc's for the scrub radius. I am not going to use power steering, and a near zero scrub radius should make it very easy to turn. I think I have been able to adjust the geometry just enough to keep the overall length the same as stock. Although the head lights cannot be stock, because they are too deep. The engine will be right behind the grill, so I will be putting in some ricer projector style lights and fog lights for driving. My goal is still to have it together and running by the end of the month. I hope I can pull it off. The first local dirt rallycross is in April. I would like to have a few hundred miles of testing under my belt before I unleash the beast on the masses. Long post, but I couldn't wait to share what I have been doing. My wife can fake interest for only so long before she says " shut up, I don't know what you are talking about, so just go out to the garage". Later- Troy

myxaplyx, The torque converter uses metal powder that, when emersed in a magnetic field, binds the drive of the engine to the input of the tranny. Unlike a standard torque converter that uses the trans fluid to make the power connection. Cooling the tranny fluid would have very little impact. Doesn't mean that using the ECVT can't be done. We brain stormed some crazy ideas, I mean crazy, to get the thing to take the power. Like taking out the torque converter and installing a regular clutch. You'd only need it at stops, and take-offs. Now talk about some crazy neutral dumps! The next problem is band slippage, and the eventual band breakage. I would like to crack one open sometime to see if a nice strong belt could be fabbed to take the abuse. If the belt isn't immersed in fluid, something simple as a snowmobile belt may just do the trick! Of course these are the ramblings of an insane man. Troy

My problem with the turbo'd Justy was the ECVT. It couldn't lock up tight enough to put the power to the ground. It would spin the bands on the pulleys, making an awful sound.That is to say from a neutral dump at launch, other wise I looked like a granny leaving the line. Once the tranny caught up however it was a riot. Just mash to go pedal and left foot brake the whole course! I actually would rather have an ECVT if I could make it work better. Staying right in the power band without shifting is perfect in a tight course. It's been a concept that racers have wanted for years, but the CVT is inherently weak. Audi has recently put one out that can handle the power, as well as several other big car makers, but that's more money than any Justy deserves. The electromagnet torque converter is another problem, it over heats under stress. The concept again is top notch, but for performance it would need a great deal of work. After all of this talk about real justys I feel a bit left out, since mine has become a monster. I guess now I'll have to go find another to play with! Of course here in Colorado the damn things are every where. Should be easy to find 1 or 2 to mess with. Troy

Rally cross is made for having fun. I had a blast in the justy EVO 1. The turbo was great, but the ECVT robbed it of any real power. Still, I had a great time, and the car was a hit. I didn't win a single fasted time in it against the open guys I was competing with. But I had a much bigger smile. AND, with a five speed I think that the turbo charged 3 cylinder would have won open easily! Why? because if I had the 5 speed, I would have had better power control. With better power control I know that I would have an advantage in maintaining and carrying speed, and getting through the course. With tight rallycross style courses, the key is maintaining momentum, and quick acceleration out of curves into any straights. I hope that my current justy EVO 3 will prove me out, even though it isn't a 3 cylinder any more. That leads me to my last point. Unless things have changed, and I haven't heard, no contingency money is paid for rallycrosses, so why let that stop you from having fun in an insane car? Troy

Now I have a bit of rastling to get the chasis re-oriented in my garage, so that I can put engine and tranny in place. That has nothing to do with my question, but it does, sort of. I needed to confirm the width dimention before I did the final install of the engine and tranny. I should be building the double A-arm suspension bits this week, and putting them together this weekend. One sadish bit of data. The wheelbase will be about 2 inches longer than the stock Justy's,no big deal, but the nose is going to be almost a half a foot longer than the stock justy's because of the engine orientation. I am keeping the drive shafts perpendicular to the tranny as a way to reduce shock damage to the tranny, and widen the inside tie points for the A-arms. This forces the engine out further in front of the front tires. A small price to pay for durability. Weight-wise it isn't a big deal because the radiator, battery and the fuel cell are in back over the rear diff. I am pushing the driver and co-driver seats back just past the B pillars for comfort and lowest installation. Cosmetically however the over hang is gonna look a bit strange I think. Haven't figured out how to post my CAD work yet to get your opinions. So I'll take pictures of some mock-ups after I get the engine in. In the end the car is going to be wierd looking, regardless. So maybe my moto should simply be "looks be damned, full speed ahead" or something like that. Troy

Hello all, I am going to start with a simple question, then go from there. I need the stock wheelbase width of an '89 XT, and how that is measured. From where to where specifically. When I get that, I may move on to a more complicated question. Troy.

My friends and I turbo'd a justy, and it went like a scalded dog. We put bilstien rally inserts up front and it cornered like a gokart. It made power up to 8k rpm easily. The drawback was the ECVT. Don't waste your time turboing an EVT justy. We didn't even make as fancy a header as they made. we just cut off the original exaust manifold about an inch off the head, welded a piece of 1.5" dom tubing and mounted the turb over by the tranny. As it turns out you don't need to modify anything to get it to fit up front by doing it this way. I put the radiator in the back because I though the turbo would have problems, they went with a smaller radiator. With some planning you don't have to do either. We plumbed it, and then checked for leaks and other problems. Then we drove it like we stole it.

you all are very kind. Fact is, I have been working on a way to post the template so that anyone who wants can make their own. I have gotten a great deal of help on this board and the template is an easy way to keep the giving going. Sounds corn ball, but it's true. this board rocks! anyone that wants to build these and sell them can give my portion to the board. Troy

In a word, yes. I did use a more tactile method for proving out the thickness required. I slid the EA tranny on to the EJ fly wheel and clutch, and it went on nearly all the way. I then modified the EA flywheel, installed it without the clutch, and slid the EA tranny on to that, and measured the gap. I installed the EA clutch and slid the tranny on, and again measured the gap. The measurement came out to about 10-11mm each time. On a previous thread another fellow hooked me up with info on a site that mentioned using a manufactured plate for just this conversion, and they mentioned the adapter depth of 10mm. I was sold. The end of the input shaft sits neatly in a hole in the center of the flywheel, and stops at a shoulder on the shaft, giving an exact dimension. Oh, I forgot to mention that the EJ flywheel is thinner than the EA flywheel.

Thanks, you scared the complete crap out of me! How the @#$% did I miss that. After a deep breath however... The adapter thickness was determined by the relationship of the new tranny/flywheel combination to the EJ block mounting face. The relationship of the throwout bearing to the clutch hasn't changed. just the tranny/ clutch combination to the engine. Does that make sense? Now that my heart is beating again....

I can't remember, I seem to recall it was a mitsubishi or dodge car (one of those cross brand breeds). You must cut off as much of the shaft (on the tranny) as you can, and whatever components make up the other hinge points. you will need them.

I posted the pics with some naratives at my web page. Check it out and ask questions. I was feeling lazy tonight and didn't take the tranny off to get pics of the adapter on the block alone. If what I have isn't clear enough I'll do it tomorrow. I have some ideas to make building the adapter even easier than the one I made. Bottom line is that it should be damn solid. Post comments here, I like public humiliation. Troy

That's very helpful, thanks. I'll just move on the measurements I have. Troy

The unit body isn't seam welded, and because all of the drive train and suspension are supported by the roll cage, I will only seem weld certain spots at the rollcage tie points, and other possible stress areas. The rollcage is already in place. It is tied at multiple points to the body, and I am in the proccess of building diferent style door bars. Leroy will ride near the XT's stock height. The supension travel question is to help determine final vertical suspension geometry. My concern is that I want the full usable travel to be taken into account. I want that to be determined by the safe usable travel of the axles. I don't want to get into a situation where the axles will bind or break. I figure the folks with lifted Subes will have experience. The Justy will have the Justy wheelbase length, and the XT width. Which is about 8" wider than the stock Justy. I will be posting new pictures tonight of the EJ engine to AE tranny adapter in place. http://petersontroylynda.home.comcast.net/wsb.html Troy