Wayne Boncyk

Very true. As it has often been said, reasonable, intelligent people, after being presented with identical information, can draw totally different conclusions. So, since we're both reasonable and intelligent - I agree with you! But without further evidence to the contrary, although I admit that I see the logic in your argument (that old well-worn transmission clutches may be held together by "gum" as much as anything else), since mine hasn't fallen apart yet (after nearly 2 years on the synthetic), I still think I did the right thing! BTW - I'm enjoying this discussion. Still, being a scientist, I'd rather settle the matter with a controlled experiment. Unfortunately I don't have a statistically significant number of old Sube ATs (which would probably have to number in the dozens, at least) in order to do it right!

I'm not intending to start a flame war here, but I do respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Part of what you said is exactly correct -- ATs and engines use "oil" for different things, and what is good for engines (ultra-slipperiness) is not what is healthy in trannys. However, what you want in ATs are consistent viscosity and friction characteristics, even after hours of punishing, high heat operation. According to my buddy, who is a chemical engineer and who spent many years doing development research with a major oil company (and they sell "refined" AT fluid as well as synthetics, so he does know the difference), the synthetic AT fluids now available will keep their characteristics far longer than refined mineral oils because they don't have the odd long-chain hydrocarbons left over from the refining process that tend to link together and "gum up" when exposed to heat and oxygen. I figured I had the best shot at diluting the existing "gum" when I put synthetic in my tranny, because it wasn't going to contribute anything that would add to the original problem.

Well, in the FWIW department, I had something similar with my '96 OBW when it was relatively new (~20K miles) and we lived in rural South Dakota. Turns out that it was dozens of dead locusts (no, maybe hundreds is more correct) that were all over everything in the engine compartment, and definitely in the air intake. It was a particularly bad year for grasshoppers there in the Summer of '97....

Well, back in 2004 I picked one up along with a replacement housing gasket for around $50, new, from one of the online Sube parts houses. I believe I got it from Courtesy Subaru in South Dakota, and I can dig up the receipt if you need more exact info.

Sorry to disappoint you, nipper, but the first thing I did (after I reconfirmed that all 4 tires were same circumference) was flush the tranny, and refill with synthetic AT fluid. Cleared the torque bind problem for about 2K miles, then it was back. That wasn't the first fluid change I'd done on the tranny, but it was the first true flush and refill with synthetic fluid, BTW. I suspect that the flush and new fluid broke free some gunk that had built up in the valve seat, but more gunk took its place in short order. Then the solenoid stuck in the closed position, and although I was able to pull it free with constant current supplied by the FWD fuse for a LONG time, eventually the solenoid stuck in the closed position for good. Still, I'm OK with the way things are turning out. John's gonna sell me his "spare" clutch pack assembly, which will give me one with a clean set of clutch plates and only a little gunk built up on the port valve seat. Should be better shape than my original, and his price is right.

Well, Tman, all I can tell you is what worked for me. You can indeed make a cam holding tool out of flat stock and a pair of sockets. Just make sure that you have some way of holding those sockets fast to the bar, or they will tend to spin free. My solution was to use deep sockets, and to use machine bolts passed thru the inside of each socket so the threaded ends stuck out like studs from the back of each socket. I put a lockwasher on the bolt before inserting it into the socket (star type, 'cause the split rings don't have anything to grab on to) and I torqued two nuts down on the outside (the lug end) in order to hold the bolt fast. For good measure, and since these were spare sockets, I poured a good dollop of long cure epoxy into each socket and let the whole thing set up for 24 hrs before I used them. Once the epoxy had set those lugs weren't going to move! I then added a lockwasher in-between the nuts and my bar, which I had drilled so that the sockets would be held at the proper space to grab each of the bolt heads holding the cam pulleys in place. Another lockwasher on the outside, followed by two more nuts (I like that jam nut idea for really locking something down, because you may want to loosen it up a bit to allow some adjustment later and just loosening one of the two nuts usually provides enough slip to allow you to make a minor adjustment.) It really was simple, and much cheaper than spending $130 for a tool that you'll maybe use two or at most three times per engine. The EndWrench article is too paranoid. If a cam slips, all that is going to happen is that the valves that were open are gonna snap shut. In the unlikely event that both cams slip in the "wrong" direction at exactly the same time, you will get valves that bump into each other. Not good, but if you are precise about the alignment when you crank everything around to the recommended belt install position, the cams are slightly biased in the "right" way, so the cams usually don't slip at exactly the same time, and valves don't bang into each other. If a cam slips, don't crank it all the way around, just back it up to the alignment position opposite the way that it slipped and you'll be fine. I know, because in the course of putting the new belt on I knocked my wonder tool off the cam bolt heads and first one, then shortly later the other, cam slipped. OOPS! But, no damage!! You do have to remove the cam sprockets in order to replace the seals, but it is my understanding that "newer" seals (brown, rather than the black colored originals ca. 1996-1998) are much longer life. I had my first timing belt replaced by a Sube dealer because all my seals decided to leak at once -- oil poured out of the engine faster than I could put it in -- and after they were replaced I have had no problems since. That's over 100K miles on the new seals without problems, and I opted to leave 'em alone with the timing belt/water pump job that I just did recently. I can't tell you about the oil pump, as I never touched mine, but I can say from experience that the old style tensioner is sturdy as a rock. Mine is still good at 218K miles. The new style isn't so much fragile as it is in need of a very precise, steady compression to reset the pusher -- or it will bend and never work correctly again. I'm glad that I have the old style in my 2.5. Good luck with the job! And don't forget to reward yourself later for saving hundreds of $$, and for learning a bit more about the finer points of the Sube 2.5L engine! Wayne B.

Well, I just did the one on my '96 2.5L Outback. I don't know if there are any differences in the two - I suspect not. First, if you've never done the timing belt on one of these before, then check out this site for loads of good info and pictures: http:///endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.5Timing.pdf If anything they are a little overcautious, but the article is still worth the time spent reading it. BTW - You don't need the special cam holding tools that they recommend. The left side tool (the only side that you really need to worry about holding fixed because the cams are under valve spring tension when the crank is positioned such that the pistons are in a "safe" position - so they won't clash with valves) will set you back over $100 -- unless you happen to have two spare 17mm sockets and a piece of 1/8" steel bar stock around 6 inches long and 1 inch wide. Then with a drill, some bolts, lockwashers and nuts you can make your own for next to nothing. Alternatively you might find it handy to have an extra pair of hands to keep those cam pulleys from turning when you install the new belt. The water pump is pretty simple, once you've disassembled everything down to removing the timing belt sprocket that is bolted to the pump housing and disconnected the hoses from the bottom, of course. Just remove the 6 bolts that hold it in place and give it a tap or two with a hammer/wood block and it'll pop right off. Check the unit for gaskets - there's a Z shaped one on the left side of the pump that'll probably have to be transferred to your new pump. Take care to keep the gasket on the new one carefully aligned when you install it. Unlike what the Haynes manual advises, you should not have to remove cam pulleys or the rear timing cover. Approximate time to do the complete job - 8 hrs if you've never done one before - 7-1/2 hrs messing with the crank pulley, the timing belt, etc... and 30 minutes to actually swap out the pump!

Thanks, ferret! You have more info about the details of these engines than anyone else I have ever corresponded with!!

John, Yes I'd potentially be interested -- depending on how much you'd want for it and how much I could get a new/rebuilt unit for. Send me a private msg with your asking price. For the rest of you guys, that means I'm still wondering where I should go for a price quote for new/rebuilt units. I'll give 1st Subaru a try, but I believe that it always pays to shop around so if you've had good luck with prices at other parts suppliers, please let me know. Thanks Again!

Thanks, John! Given the postings in your latest thread (which I replied to) you buy a lot of used Subes!! If you happen to have a spare '97 or newer clutch pack (undamaged) that you're willing to sell cheap (I'd like to avoid the port clogging issue by replacing what I have with the newer design) then I'd be interested! Wayne B.

I wasn't aware that any solid lifter 2.2's were in any '96 model year vehicles. Are there any?

The 2.2L are all non-interference -- only the 2.5's are an interference design. So I'd just stay with the one you have the most faith in. (IMHO, since you know the history of your '95 it's probably the best bet, and there's bound to be somebody out there who wants that other one!!)

Being the lazy $#!& that I am, and not wanting to mess around with trying to break free an exhaust assembly (I don't have an air impact hammer) that had been heat-welded in place with over 175K miles of use just to be able to get to the extension housing on my 4EAT, I decided back in 2004 to cure my torque bind problem with a simple addition of the FWD fuse. I read all the posts, both pro and con, about the issue here on this board, and I figured I'd risk it. Well, the risk paid off, I guess. It is now 2006 and I've been driving around all this time with just a 2WD Sube (but hey, I live in Southern California now and there have been only a very few times that I wished I'd still had the AWD). Finally, at 218K miles, the AT Temp lite flashes me the Solenoid C code, and I have torque bind once again. Guess now we all know how long a Solenoid C can last while constantly engaged! So, what do I do now? I actually have a replacement solenoid that I bought back in '04 and I guess I now have to do the work that I had been so long dreading, but I want your advice first. Since this is a '96, prone to valve seat corrosion and all the rest, should I just replace the entire extension housing/clutch pack assembly instead of trying a solenoid "band-aid?" Your thoughts are most welcome! Also, if you think that replacing the whole assembly is the best approach, where would you suggest I go to get one? Frankly I'm not happy with the parts prices quoted to me from the local Sube dealers here in SoCal. They appear to be consistently 75-100% higher than other Sube dealers who are willing to sell online to the public. But I have not been able to find an online source that has either "cluth pack" or "extension housing" parts in their online catalogs. Any suggestions? Thanks again for all your help -- this forum truly is the Ultimate for Sube info and advice! Wayne B.

Thanks, guys! It was possible to replace the water pump without pulling the rear timing belt cover, although, like you mentioned, it is a tight fit. Still, it went on without too much playing around and since I don't have any leaks I guess I got the gasket on right! BTW - thanks for the hint about the dog-leg gasket. It came off with the pump, and I never would have noticed if you hadn't said something about it. Anyway, thanks for the help -- I knew I'd find somebody on this board who had been down this path before. Wayne B.

Here's the deal - I distrust Haynes and all other second source "references" about Subarus, because they have at one time or another 1) given me wrong info, and 2) made me do far more work than I later found was necessary to do a job. My job today - replace the water pump on my '96 Outback, 2.5L engine. My question - Haynes says that I need to remove the two left cam pulleys and the rear timing cover on the left side in order to remove the pump. Is that so? I currently have the front of the engine partially disassembled (belts, fans, crank pulley, timing belt idler and tensioner, timing belt) all off the engine, and I have the left cams held in place with my home-made replacement for the $130 cam holding tool, that I made out of a pair of 17mm sockets, couple of bolts and lockwashers, and some steel barstock. Trouble is, I can't tell just by looking of I can get that old pump out without doing more disassembly. Anyone with some experience have any advice? If I have to pull the cams and the rear cover, how do I do that without the valves crashing into each other and wrecking themselves? Any advice would be welcome here!! (and of course I'm going to put on a new timing belt when I put it all back together....) THANKS for your help!! Wayne B.

Good luck! Let us know what happens....

Another thing to look for on your third problem (sticking climate controls) -- do the pushbutton indicator lights work properly when you notice the cc are stuck? I had a problem with my '96 sticking, and I realized after a while that whenever they were stuck, the button lights were out. Turns out I had a problem with some connector corrosion in the wiring harness, and it had nothing to do with either the buttons themselves or with the damper door.

Here's the thread that you want: 4EAT TCU Questions (96 Legacy Outback) You may notice that I'm the one who initiated it, so I'm pretty familiar with this transmission troubleshooting thing!

Hi, The latest poster here is indeed right - the flashing light indicates that the Transmission Control Module (a little computer similar to the one that monitors the way the engine works) has detected a fault somewhere. The fact that it blinks 16 times doesn't tell you anything other than a fault has been detected. You need to do some electrical troubleshooting to figure out just which error it has seen. There is another thread on this board that describes in detail (with some pictures), just what you need to do to read the exact trouble code. I can't remember which one it is now, but I'll poke around a bit and I'll post another message here when I find it. It is also true that one of the more common failures is the "Duty Solenoid C" which controls the All Wheel Drive transfer clutch on the back of your automatic transmission. Driving with this failure won't necessarily wreck your transmission, but it will excessively wear your tires, you will feel the car jerk around corners when you're turning a corner slowly (that's called "torque bind") and eventually you will wear out parts of the drive train, so something else will break sooner than it otherwise would. Your best option right now is to have the transmission fluid changed, and drive the car with care for a while to see if the blinking AT Temp light goes away. You should also get the trouble code that is stored on your TCM, and decide what to do next based on that code. Sounds like you've already changed the fluid, so all you need to do is retrieve the old code and watch that AT Temp light carefully for a while.

Bryan, Yeah, since I've been discussing parts of this "adventure in troubleshooting" over a couple of different threads, I forgot to explicitly indicate here that I DID get the Duty Solenoid C circuit fault message (24 out of the TCM) and I continue to do so whenever I feel evidence of torque bind. Here's what has happened in the past several weeks, just to bring you up to speed. I have driven the car with a fuse in the FWD socket most of this time. I have not yet swapped my duty solenoid, mostly because it will require some significant disassembly of the exhaust system in order to allow me to get to the transfer housing, and I'm saving all that work for later this year when I have enough money available to replace the catalytic converters, too. I have also recently been contending with a check engine error P0420, which inidcates that either my O2 sensors are not being read correctly or that the cats are bad. With 200+K miles on the car now and with both O2 sensors having been replaced within the past year, I suspect I need new cats. Anyway, I'll do all the mechanical disassembly at one time. Back to the Solenoid C problem diagnosis - I have noticed that the proper switching of the solenoid (i.e. "proper" working of the FWD light with a fuse installed) does seem to be a function of temperature, but I haven't yet been able to definitively determine if it is an electrical problem with the TCM or a mechanical issue with the solenoid sticking. I have tried a can of freeze spray on the TCM, and that didn't seem to have any immediate effect on the problem. By that I mean I sprayed the TCM and chilled it down to the point where there was external frost on the box on a day when the FWD light was not coming on, and that did nothing in the short term to alleviate the problem. But, when I went out to the car later that day (maybe an hour or so later) the light came on as soon as I started the car, and stayed on during the 30 minute drives I made down to the store and back. I can't say for certain if this means that I needed time for thermal soakback to occur, or if this was just one of those times when the solenoid correctly latched up and stayed there. Lately, it has been too cool here in SoCal for the problem to show up at all -- so I may not be able to continue the troubleshooting until we get another spell of really hot weather. I'll still probably replace my solenoid, now that I have the parts here all ready to go. BTW - given the amount of labor involved in this repair, I think you were quoted a very reasonable price. You have a good repair shop there -- too bad I live so far away!!

Oh, and Steve, I forgot to mention that you should try the fuse in the FWD socket as a diagnostic test. After you've checked the tires and are convinced that they are near the same circumference, and after you've changed the AT fluid, see if the torque bind goes away when you put a fuse in the FWD socket. If your FWD light comes on AND the torque bind goes away when the fuse is in, then you likely do have a problem with the clutch plates in the transfer case. If the FWD light does not come on, or if the torque bind does NOT go away when the fuse is put in, then that actually more likely points to a failure in the Duty Solenoid C. You still have to pull the transfer case to get to that solenoid, but it's a much less expensive repair than replacing the entire clutch plate assembly.

Thanks, Brian! Your description is far and away better than any I've read here -- and that includes mine after I found the connector!! Anyway, I've continued to work on my Duty Solenoid C problem. As you know I put a fuse in the FWD socket and the FWD light came on only for about 1/2 hour's driving; then it would go out and would stay out until the car cooled overnight. After about a week of this the FWD light refused to come on at all any more, whether there was a fuse in the socket or not. Cheapskate that I am, I had to try all the other inexpensive fixes before I shelled out cash for a new Duty Solenoid C, so next I tried new synthetic AT fluid and a friction reducing additive for about a week. I didn't have the AT "flushed," but I did do 3 partial drain/refills by pulling the AT pan drain plug, draining about 3-4 quarts, then topping off and running the car in all gears for about 20 mins in between each drain/refill cycle. After all that, the FWD light stayed off. I figured the Solenoid had to be shot at that point, so I ordered a new one. It has taken about a week to arrive, and in that time I've still been using the car for average commuting (about 40 miles each way, mostly freeway driving). Then, wouldn't you know it!!??!! The solenoid that I ordered arrived this afternoon and as I drove home from work today, before I had a chance to swap solenoids, the FWD light came back on (I'd left the FWD fuse in the whole time)!!! I drove the car around a little more this evening and the light is staying on. I pulled the fuse for a little bit and the light went off, but the torque bind on turns is now much less severe than before. I popped the fuse in again just now, and the FWD light is on just as it is supposed to be. Moral of the saga -- CLEAN and FRESH AT fluid is essential for proper operation of this transfer clutch assembly!! I'll probably still pull the transfer case and inspect (and possibly change out) the solenoid assembly tomorrow morning. I'd still like to know exactly what's going on in there!

Well, unfortunately I've has the new one in for about 1200 miles, so I think I'm stuck with having to change out one or both cats. @#*&! Anyway, does anyone have a suggestion as to which one to try first, or a diagnostic method that will tell me which one is really bad??

I suspect that you may have the now infamous Torque Bind. For a wealth of information on the subject, search this forum for "torque bind" and spend about 30 minutes reading up on it. Note especially that it may be caused by something as simple as tires that are not all the same circumference, or old and gummy transmission fluid! Or, it may point to a failing solenoid in the AWD transfer case, bolted onto the rear of your transmission. If it isn't tires and it isn't AT fluid, and it isn't the solenoid, then it is likely caused by scoring of the clutch assembly plates in that transfer case. That can be a relatively expensive repair, but all the other potential causes are relatively cheap and easy to fix. Good luck! It isn't necessarily true that "all of these" Subies with AT drive like that, but many of them do develop the problem -- usually from mis-matched tire diameters that result from not rotating your tires as often as the manufacturer recommends. BTW - The fuse in the FWD socket trick can be used to help diagnose whether you have torque bind, or some other problem. If you put a fuse in the socket and the problem goes away, it is definitely torque bind. Good Luck!

Well, I hope in your case that it is just an air pocket -- I was not so lucky. I went thru exactly the same process as you, and during the course of my "experimentation" with new thermostats and the like, the radiator core actually got too hot from the steam pouring out of the block (hot combstion gases really make some superheated steam!!), that I blew a seam on the upper radiator manifold. So new thermostat, new radiator, several fills of new coolant, etc., was all to no avail. But I don't want to scare you now.... Seriously, good luck. If you do find that it is a blown HG (and the most common failure point does NOT result in something that you can observe as a change in cylinder compression, so ultimately you'll have to pull the heads to know for sure), at least these heads are really easy to service. If you're up to the task, you can do the replcement yourself with the engine left in the car. Wayne