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No, your problem should be much simpler and relatively inexpensive to solve especially for the dealer familar with the car. Certainly not life threating to the running the car itself like failing HGs. Is your alarm Subaru/dealer installed or is it aftermarket? Get the yellow pages out and contact those shops that advertise that they specialize in alarm/electrical problems. Given the serious nature of the HG failure, I just felt it was worth spending a couple of hundred more to have a dealer do the job - someone who knows and works on these engines exculsively. Not to mention having the backing of the warranty and SOA if problems arise. Time will tell if I made the right decision to keep the car awhile longer and dumping the money I did into her. Since this HG problem started to be reported here and elsewhere on the web years ago, I've occasionally called the big dealerships thru-out Minnesota, to get ball park estimates and compare them, knowing that given the number of reports, it was only a matter of time before the problem showed up on my Subaru. They were all fairly close their estimates. The problem with independents is finding one who has seen or worked on a number of these engines. Would you really want a mechanic whose not familar with Subaru's to work on them? t - I've heard horror stories from friends and acqaintances about problems following them (on various makes/models) after major service was performed by the indy down the street. And others have had good success with independents - with the big 3 car makes at least. Yes, Morries was high on their charges, but more importantly it needs to be noted that this is an design issue with the engine itself, and it's a reflection on Subaru. You know, I wouldn't make too big a deal about the HG and expense if it appeared that it was just luck of the draw that this failure happened on my Subaru. Mechanical failures happen afterall. But the fact that there are a fair number of reported failures, and many more that we don't read about, and that the repair is expensive, it's important that I and other's share our experiences to inform and warn others. Forums like this are extremely helpful in educating people about these problems (HGs, oil leaks, piston slap, etc) and the associated costs and hassle. If it hasn't already, it will eventually affect Subaru's bottom line to some degree with regards to new car sales with the 2.5. Hopefully it will get Subaru to continue to make the necessary design changes, or drop this engine altogether. I do agree I've been lucky to get 140K out of her before this occurred. With all that said, I still like Subaru's, the overall quality, driveability, fuctionality, and up until recently, the value/cost ratio. For me at least, if I decide to buy *new* again in the near future, I doubt Subaru will be on my short list of vehicles I'll be considering. Certainly not any with the 2.5. BTW, the car appears to be running good, except for an occasional low idle at stops, ~300-400rpms. Morrie's will be looking at it tomorrow. Want to mention also that while my car was in for repairs, I did stop at the dealership to talk to service about their progress. Got to see the engine pulled out of the car, heads off of course, cams and other parts neatly laid out around it. Wish I had my digital camera at the time - would of uploaded a few pics for those of you who haven't seen one of these engines out of the car and opened up. Somewhat surprise at how much smaller it looks with it out of the car and the heads off. Got to examine the tips of the Bosch Platinums +4 still in the heads. They looked good after 80K, just a nice clean gray film on them. Still can't understand why others have had problems with Bosch plugs. Anyway, she has new NGK V-power copper plugs now. I'll let you know if I notice a performce difference. I did talk with one of the techs for 15 minutes while looking at the opened engine - facinating and educational. I feel like I could almost do the repair myself next time - oh my god, what am I saying... Paul

I'm not sure of the exact hours, but it meets the original estimate they gave me on everything before they started work. That was in line with another dealer, and a couple hundred more than some independents - but the indies only had warranty of 3 or 4 months or 4000 miles - so we went with the dealer. I wasn't thrilled that they had thrown in a new timing belt when the old one only had 35K on it, but I should'nt have to replace it again for the remaining life of the car. A couple of the independents also stated they would not do the HG work without replacing the Timing Belt. Another point I brought the car in last Wednesday and didn't pick it up until today (Tuesday) including the weekend which the service shop was not open. They did loan me a new Ford Explorer with only 3K for the duration, no charge. A nice ride, but boy, not the gas milage I get from the Subaru. I suspect some of the higher cost is to absorb the cost of the rental. Anyway, it's over with for now. I hope she hold's together for awhile ( a couple of years). In the meantime, I'm researching possible new vehicles...

Well, I got the car back this afternoon. Machined heads, new HG gaskets & seals, timing belt, coolant flush, oil change, new IAC valve, and front brake job. They also installed NGK plugs I brought in that I had planned to do myself, but, since they had to pull the engine anyway.... I would normally do the brakes myself, but since it was going in I just decided to have it all done and get it over with. Bite on a bullet when you read this, total, $2145. And that was with discounts. I'll let you know if there are any issues that arise. In the meantime, I'm not bashful about posting some pics of of the copy of my service bill. Hopefully, some of you can use it as a reference and do better on the bottom line. I hope this was worth it...

Congratulations on your new ride. Probably any of the name brand after market speakers (Pioneer, Infinity, Boston Acoutics, Polk, etc.) will give you noticeable improvement over the stock drivers you have now. You might want to start with giving the folks at Crutchfield a call - www.crutchfield.com Not the cheapest, but good selection for varying budgets, and the salespeople are usually very knowledgeable and should be able to make some solid recommendations for you based on the car, radio, and your expectations.

So what's the opinions on the lastest 2.5 engines in the 2004 and 2005 models? Has Subaru made the necessary design changes to the block, heads, and gaskets? What about the turbo models, etc. Unless there have been significant changes to the 2.5, I can't imaging why anyone would want to take the risk with either new or used. Too bad the H6 isn't offered in more configurations, and Subaru should just drop production of the 2.5 and bring back the 2.2

What happened?

Morrie's Subaru in Minnetonka is where I bought the car, and where it is being serviced now. Like the other dealers, they're a tad high on their service labor and parts, but they've done decent work for me in the past (the timing belt, oil seals, water pump, etc @ 103K). I called several independants on the HG work, but none gave me a warm & fuzzy that I would trust them to do the job right the first time. Luther's Bloomington Acura/Subau is where I have also had some work done before. Again, high prices but they did the work competently. This is the dealer that called me back on the 2005 Outback pricing. For new car sales on a Toyota or Subaru, I'd check out St. Cloud Toyota, ask for Bruce in sales. He was great on my Mom's 91' Camry, and he was very helpful when I was checking out the Tundra's and Tacoma's. They sell lots of Subies too. Unless it's major work beyond my ability or ambition, like the HG's I'm having done now, I always do the work myself (shade tree mechanic). All the dealers are high on their service prices, but I'm kinda at their mercy on this major stuff. I would think any of the authorized Subie dealers should be able to solve your issues though. Which one did you take your vehicle to?

Just an update: My 96 2.5 definitely had hydrocarbons in the coolant, so she's in the dealer shop for the next couple of days for major surgery. Also found was a sticky IAC valve, and front brake pads down to 2% material left, 60% still on the rears. Anyway, I'll have a nice repair bill greeting me on Friday. You can show me that club handshake now... On another note, another dealer called me this afternoon to say they just got the prices in for the 2005 Outbacks. I'm only interested in the H6, so, the base model is an L.L. Bean edition with leather only, no cloth, MSRP will be $32,777. I didn't ask about the VDC model, but I imaging it's a few thousand more. Anyway, given no base model with cloth is offered, and with a pretty good idea where dealer invoice will be, I'm afraid Subaru is off my short list for a new purchase. There are too many other manufacturer AWD models that offer some compelling features/performance/reliability/price ratios. And I wasn't really overwhelmed with a 2004 H6 I test drove last fall. I'm still curious what the new H6 with the variable valve timing and more HP will do for performance. So, I be driving my 96 baby for awhile longer at least, and bide my time researching the new vehicles.

If you have a local library, they may carry the Haynes, Chiltons, and others. That's what I do. Paul

Well, My 96 OBW w/138k is now showing the streaming bubbles in the coolant reservior - a sure sign of HG failure. Hasn't overheated and still get good heat in the cabin, so hopefully I've caught this early. I'll insist on a compression test and exhaust gas in the coolant check before going ahead with any work. Called several dealers and shops in my area (Minneapolis) and got estimates of $1200 to $2500 for HG kit replacement and machined heads (if needed). One independent stated they would rather not do it for fear it would come back knowing the reputations on these engines. I've got it down to 2 dealers that I have had work done before, one where I purchased the car. Both are in the $1400 to $1500 range. I'm ready to look for a new vehicle anyway, so I might try dumping it for a trade-in. I've got the 05 OBW with the H6 on my short list but other than what info I could find on the web, haven't much detail yet. I fear too, the price will be beyond what I'm willing to spend. We'll see. Anyway, please welcome and accept me into the brotherhood... I truly feel blessed... Paul

Steve, I have monitored the Edmunds Subaru Townhall forums for the last couple of years - specifically the Subaru Problems and Solutions and related. While there is often good discussion concerning Subaru issues, I'm suspicious that the forum's tone is often controlled by some of the regulars there who might have a vested interested in keeping the tone "positive" and the major problems "low keyed". Starting a couple of years ago, there would be posters that would "vent" their frustrations on these issues like the head gaskets, oil leaks, etc. only to be poo-pooe'd as a whiner or another car maker loyalist attempting to bad mouth Subaru reliability - which in some, cases, may be true. I've also seen such posts removed from the discussion threads - which Edmund's reserves the right to do as stated in their rules and regulations. But I think they over-attempt to protect the image of the products and car makers. Until a few months ago when the increasing number of complaints about head gaskets started to appear, these problems are now being fully acknowledged. Think about the whole main purpose of the Edmund's website, a marketing tool for auto makers to sell new cars. Car manufacturer's support staff such as Subaru's SOA are/should be actively involved in the discussions to promote the products, and provide damage control. Just be aware that I believe there is some bias in the discussions there at Edmunds... I do applaud SOA's staff like "Patti" for getting involved and providing the resources to help Subaru owner's with these issues. My opinions. Paul

Thanks for the replies. I checked with my local dealer and they want $18. I'll probably order a couple from 1stSubaru and replace the pressure side valve too. To make the order worthwhile, I may order a new bullnose protector. I lost my bullnose protector (Subaru's) tonight going through a carwash (through the blower/dryer). Tore the right side right off - 2nd one I've lost in the life of the car, a 96'. The first one I lost down in Texas on a single lane highway on a windy day and a passing semi-truck created such a vacuum that it just exploded the fiberglass/plastic? into a million pieces...all I could see was a smokey cloud of the bullnose falling to the ground in my rearview mirror. It was a cool effect but really pissed me off. Why can't the manufacturer design decent mountings for the side edges of the hood? - those clips just don't cut it and that's where the problem is. Anyway, I guess I'll be looking up/or calling about the bullnose price on 1stSubaru as well. Lemme see, where'd I put my wallet.... Paul

Is that filter part number correct? - I couldn't find it on 1stsubarupart.com. Also, whats the ballpark price on that item? Paul

While the 05 certainly looks very attractive in features and performance, I'm always leary about a new model/redesign - and the potential for new model/redesign problems to appear. My expectations would be that Subaru has their act together on this year/model in terms of solid reliability. But my biggest fear is that Subaru's final price point on this model may put it out of reach for many loyal Subaru owners, and that would be a shame. Guess we'll have to wait and see...

Josh, Yes, I know the dry specifics are on the website... I'm interested in learning about personal impressions from people who have seen, touched, driven the vehicle - less so from professional reviews and more from average joes like us... Like I stated, I know it's early yet, and I don't know when it will start to become available, but maybe someone will have an early opportunity to see this beast. Paul

My apologies if this has been posted before, just thought I'd share for those who may not know about it yet. From an email I received on information on the new 2005 Outback: http://content.subaru.com/mailings/02_04_Outback/index.html Also, I know it's kind of early yet, but if anyone gets a chance to look at and actually test drive the 2005, I'd be very interested in opinions/impressions: Engine performance, build quality, fit-n'-finish, dash control layout, "nifty" and "bad idea" new features, etc... Paul

Seafoam seems alittle more harsh on the engine than a good shot of MMO. -Brian [/b] ----------- Brian, That's interesting - I would say exactly the opposite. My car seemed to run rough with the MMO treatment, especially when added to the crank. I add a third to half a can of SeaFoam to the crank every other, to every third oil change, 500 or so miles before I dump the oil, and have had great results. Also, sucking up a can into the throttle through one of the vacuum hoses, twice a year, really smooths out the idling. Just to add, I have a friend who has had his single engine pilot license and has owned his own plane for many years. He was the one the recommended MMO to me, as he and his mechanic are both proponents of it, and use treatments regularily on his aircraft's engine, a Cessna 152. I guess it's just how each of our experiences go... Paul

I've tried MMO once and didn't like it at all. I use nothing but SeaFoam Motor Tuneup in the Gas, Oil, and Throttle Body. I use SeaFoam on all my small engine Equipment as well (Lawn Tractor, Snow Thrower, Wood Chipper, etc). Can't speak highly enough about it... Paul 96 OBW 2.5 Auto/135K miles

I test drove a 2004 OBW last fall with the H6. While it was smoother and quieter than my 96 OBW 2.5, I found the power did not meet my expectations. The 2005's will have the new H6 with variable valve timing, 245hp (I forget the torque number), and according to the sales people I've spoken to, it should have slightly better fuel economy. Also, while there aren't a large number of H6 owners hanging around these forums providing opinions and feedback, it does appear that the H6 is much more trouble-free than the H4 2.5s. I have not seen one Head Gasket issue, and only one other on a different forum speak of an oil leak issue. That alone, to me, helps justify the added cost of an H6 over the H4. Paul

You'll get some good responses here, but here's a link to an Edmunds.com discussion on the HG and "Conditioner" issue: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?14@231.wMMwcIuIjYB.4@.ef0d013/2598

Interesting discussion on HGs (again) - I'd like to ask a couple of questions regarding all this: First, what are the disadvantages of using a "stop leak" aka "conditioner", to the coolant? I've never had issues with HGs on any vehicle I've owned before (lucky I guess). Is it considered a temporary fix? Can it clog or harm other components in the cooling system? Second, while I agree with others who have commented that forums like this one, and the many others on the web, tend to magnify problems like these, Subaru's new directive does acknowledge that there is an ongoing problem with the HGs. It sure would be nice to know how many vehicles (actual numbers) are affected. So where do consumers go (in the U.S.) to report these issues so that someone is keeping score in case the numbers get high enough for the Federal Government steps in or a class action takes place? I'm reminded of the fiasco that Toyota is going through with "oil sludge" problems in certain model year engines. The problem was so extensive in numbers that Toyota appears to be taking care of it's customers, no questions asked, rather than damage their reputation and future sales. I have no doubt that the number of Subaru HGs issues is much smaller, percentage wise. Makes me wonder when will this problem be serious enough, that Subaru will simple bite the bullet and offer to cover the HGs indefinitly. -------- Since no other posts have appeared, I'll append the following link from Edmunds.com with some addition/interesting discussions on the HG issue: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?14@231.wMMwcIuIjYB.4@.ef0d013/2598

In my 96 OBW, I have replaced bulbs in the climate control (including A/C indicator), the cruise, defroster, fog, seat heater switches (both indicator and icons). Used the same RS bulbs #7219 for all of them and all work great. No big deal to do any of them yourself. Paul

That's a good point. I guess I should ask for those of us with model years 96 - 98 2.5's, which have more reported failures - just from age and mileage. Apparently, if this is true, and Subaru is acknowledging a problem with their HGs, they should cover all the 2.5's back to when it was first introduced (1996).

So what does this do, if anything, for owners of these model years who had to pay out-of-pocket for repairs because they were well beyond the mileage warranty? Will they be reimbersed I wonder?

Not trying to be funny, but,.... How about another dealership or independent...