pontoontodd

Well if someone offered me a decent amount of money for the Outback that would certainly change my thinking!

I really don't know how long the engine swap would take. Mechanically we could probably take out the four and bolt in the six in a weekend. I'd need either an H6 radiator or different hoses but I think the wiring would be the most time consuming. Worst case I know of a guy who can trim down the wiring harness from the donor car for $500 so I would only have to hook up a few wires. Six speed I'm not sure, I think the axles are different but I have to check. A donor car would probably be $1000-$1500, six speed about $1200. At this point this is what I'm leaning towards in case you can't tell. In the long run I'd like to do a few more desert races but I don't anticipate doing it for many years in a Subaru. There is a decent looking H6 Outback for sale in CA right now with 130k miles for $2500, so probably $3000ish for a decent car we could build up. $1000 just for cage tubing, we could use a lot of the parts from the 99 but then that would have to just be scrapped, or figure up to another $3000 for seats, harnesses, window nets, fuel cells, pumps, etc. The front suspension is the same as far as I know. The rear suspension in the 01-04 is completely different, so we'd be starting over there. I probably wouldn't do it a lot differently if we did another one from scratch. I think the main advantage would be that we'd have a lower mileage rust free car.

Trying to decide whether to swap an H6 in this car or just buy an H6 Outback and make that race legal. Either way I'm planning on an 01-04 OB H6 and a manual trans, probably six speed. In 2005 they went to CAN bus (?) which would make swapping engine/trans much more difficult. They also seemed to make a lot more 01-04 and they're cheaper. Long term plan is to get one for my wife, donor for engine swap, and a complete car for manual trans swap and long travel for me to drive to replace the Impreza. Pros/cons: Swap: cheaper, probably less work Race prep an H6 Outback: More solid body if I got a rust free car. No major wiring issues to figure out (mainly manual trans conversion). I really don't need two cars with cages, it basically makes the car a two seater except for small people or short trips, and can't recline the front seats. I could steal the fuel cells, pumps, and some other things out of the 99 and scrap it out, which seems like a waste. If I keep the 99, even just as a street car, I'd have to buy another fuel cell(s), pumps, etc. Probably close to $1000. If I wanted to race both, I'd have to get another pair of seats, harnesses, window nets, probably race radio, etc. $1500-$2000. Anything I'm missing? Would it be better to race prep an H6 rather than swap the engine into mine?

Is there any good way to compress the tensioner when installed? If you put everything together but one sprocket is off a tooth and you need to loosen the belt to move that, there has to be a good way to do it. I've pried up slowly with a prybar until I can get the pin back in. It works and I've driven the car since, but I'm afraid that might damage the belt. Not a lot of room or good visibility with the radiator in place.

Are you talking about the hoop we run in the back of the car for the races? That's so when we get nerfed the hatch doesn't get destroyed. Our limiting factor on travel and tire clearance is the springs. We're already pushing them almost to coil bind and they have no preload, so there's no good way to move the spring perch up without using a shorter spring and losing travel. Taller tires would be nice, more ground clearance would be good, should improve the ride quality too, but the current gearing is already barely tolerable with the tires we have. I wonder if we'd start to wear out or break axles faster too.

Engine was dripping coolant from the water pump area, so I got a water pump and new timing belt and we replaced those yesterday. Seems to have cured the leak so far. Might have just been the water pump gasket. Not too bad to do in the car.

Rerouted and replaced most of the fuel lines, rewired and mounted the pumps on top of the fuel cell. Put different color zip ties on each hose for future troubleshooting, that's already come in handy. Used Gates 225psi fuel hose which seems to kink more easily than other fuel hose I've used, but works. Any suggestions on a good 3/8" hose for fuel injection? The pumps definitely make more noise now that they're in the car, but once you're moving you can't really hear them over a little tire and wind noise. The power wire to the fuel pump that used to go to the top of the stock fuel tank is questionable, light gauge to begin with and slightly corroded now. I should probably run a wire from the fuel pump relay to the back of the car sometime. Ran it a bit, everything seemed good, then went for a test drive around the block and when I got back there was fuel spraying out the bottom of the car. It was coming out the gasket on the surge tank. My first thought was that the overflow hose from the surge tank was a little kinked and maybe that was causing the tank to build up pressure. Wanted to replace the gasket and shorten the studs so I took that all apart. Then I realized there's still a check valve in one of the bulkhead fittings designed to keep the gas from coming out the vent in a rollover. That must have closed and kept the fuel from going out the overflow. So I removed that ball and snapring. That might have been a small part of our problem before, the pump flowing through that little hole in the side of the fitting was probably heating up the fuel a bit.

Here is the best picture I got of how smashed the exhaust was. Not terrible but probably not good, and pressed up against the power steering lines. You can also see where I had to weld shut the hole/crack we got during the race. For the time being I picked up a header from the junkyard that was lying under a Forester. Cut out some copper gaskets for the flanges. Have small tubes inside of those joints as well to minimize leakage. This is all the exhaust that's on the car right now and it's quiet enough. Eventually I'll run it to the back, probably get rid of this muffler, and have one near the back of the car. Going to make a skidplate out of 1/16" 4130 under the Y pipe and crossmember. Got it mocked up out of cardboard and have the piece of steel, just have to get around to making it. Probably have some spacers under the crossmember to help keep the exhaust from getting crushed. Really leaning towards the H6 swap though, so no sense doing a bunch of exhaust work yet.

Most recreational Subaru off roading I've seen has been closer to crawling than high speed running. Rally / rallycross is probably more similar to what we're doing, but those courses are usually fairly smooth. So I think the market for Subaru suspension built for what we're doing and the number of people who will pay for it is pretty small. I know what you're talking about with the mid and long travel kits for trucks, most of the guys trying to do budget pre running or whatever you want to call it are used to doing that in trucks, not in cars. Is that because they're inherently better suited with actual frames, more ground clearance, and bigger tires, or just because that's how they've done it for decades? We just thought since Subarus seem to ride better over rough terrain compared to any truck or SUV we've been in (stock vs stock) they would be a better starting point. I think one thing keeping people out of that end of the market is that it isn't just making wider arms and selling shocks and springs that fit. You have to make struts, which are just inherently more complicated and specialized. Given the right volume the price shouldn't be much more than shocks, but it's hard to get there. Maybe with the increase in popularity of Subarus now and with models like the Forester, Baja, and Crosstrek, more people will start going what we're doing with them.

Back to brass tacks. We went through the struts, wheel bearings, ball joints, etc and they all seem good. Parking brake shoes are worn way down again, pretty sure that's just from sand and dirt getting in, we hardly ever use the parking brake. Since the battery has top and side posts and we had the positive cable come loose during the race, figured it'd be a good idea to add some short jumper wires to tie into the side posts: I had started to fabricate a new handle for the hatch when my friend suggested I see what the dealer wanted for one. Turns out it's only $25, if this one lasts 17 years I'll be happy.

Definitely wouldn't try an EA dual range. Apparently we don't NEED low range, but it would be helpful at times. During the race (with a flat tire) and in the UP in really soft sand, there have been a few times where it's nearly impossible to get started because of the gearing/tires/engine torque. With the current engine closer ratios might be good, there were a few times going up grades during the race that third was too tall and second was too short. Like you say though, more power/torque solves all of those problems. I've talked to a few people who build EJ engines and it sounds like it would be about $4000 for not much more power and torque than we have now. Our friend recently finished swapping an EZ30 H6 into his four seat street tube buggy (had a Rabbit 4 cyl) and tells me I should go that route. Probably the main question there is whether or not to upgrade to a six speed at the same time. Thanks for that info, unfortunately none of that was ever sold in the US, so they're hard to find with any ratios. I do have a line on a 4.11 with 1.59 low range though, if we don't do the H6 that would probably be the way to go.

Don't worry about jacking the thread, sorry I didn't reply to this earlier. Fox is such a big company making shocks for everything from bicycles to trophy trucks, if they think they'd only sell a few sets of Subaru shocks/struts a year (and they're probably right), why would they bother? I don't think we've ever seen any other Subarus when we go to off road parks or exploring off pavement. I think what would make them more willing to work with Subaru people is if those people actually bought parts from them, which it sounds like doesn't happen. I guess this guy was just doing donuts in their parking lot just inside the entrance and not trail riding. There are often a lot of people with trailers there so it might have been dangerous, I don't know. I'm sure if he was out in the park somewhere no one would care. I think you're right about just using a standard EJ low range trans.

Wow, it sounds like you have done a lot to your drivetrain. I'm not sure if the forks would be strong enough.

If the spring rates were a little stiffer you'd have more compression travel from ride height. Even if it doesn't increase your total travel, then you can keep the damping relatively soft and not bottom out as often. Also I like the rear springs stiffer than the front to give some oversteer since there are no swaybars on my car. Your English is 1000 times better than my French! I was joking about the tape measure (cinta metrica in Spanish, mètre à ruban in French?), it's weird to see one with just centimeters on it rather than inches.

Thanks for the pictures. It looks like there's something wrong with your tape measure... I'm surprised the springs are inline with the struts, rather than pointed at the hub like the stock struts. That caused a lot of friction for us, maybe that's why they didn't ride smoothly on the street. I know how to calculate spring rates, etc, I'm looking for a chart of available mass produced coil springs showing height, diameter, wire size, coils, rate, etc. Moog has one but it's the only one I can find. All of the aftermarket/racing companies sell smaller diameter springs than I need. It's interesting, your front spring rate is about the same as mine but your rear springs are much softer.

Thanks, glad you like it. I don't daily drive anything, but I usually drive the car a few times a week and the bushings we're using now seem happy and greased when I check them. Keep meaning to add grease fittings between the bushings but haven't yet. I figure it's a good idea to go through them after a race or major beating, the top bearings often need replacement and the rear boots keep getting torn up. So I just grease them then. How did you calculate the maximum possible stroke? We just mocked it up and moved the suspension until things hit or bound. Ours don't have much more travel than yours, maybe 10%. We did make the extended front arms, which definitely helped. The real limitation we've run into has been the springs. Again, if anyone knows of a good coil spring size chart, I'd love to see it. We've been talking about getting custom springs wound since we might make a set for my friend's Forester soon. It would be nice to have a stiffer spring rate, right now it sits about in the middle of the travel at ride height. I'd rather have 7-8" of compression travel and 4" of extension. Plus an inch or two more ground clearance wouldn't hurt. Since the spring has to hang over the top of the tire, at coil bind it has to be about 4" tall to get about 12" of travel. Otherwise we could probably have more compression travel, which would be great. And that's really pushing the springs (about 150ksi / 1050MPa stress at coil bind), I'm surprised they haven't sagged yet, normally you're only supposed to compress a coil spring to half of its relaxed height as a rule of thumb. Extension travel is limited by the CV plunge travel and the tie rods binding up, and again the springs, although you could probably let them go slack if they were retained properly. I'm sure the Dakar struts were sprung and valved to be driven hard over rough terrain, and I'm sure they didn't care what the ride quality would be like putting around on city streets. I would love to see some pictures of those, especially torn apart. Our struts ride pretty well on the street. At parking lot speeds they're a little harsh, once you get going it's a little stiffer than stock but really soaks up big potholes, speed bumps, etc. If all we did was desert race this car I'd probably go stiffer on the valving, it does limit our speed sometimes since we know it will bottom out if we hit things too hard. If we started running it harder we'd probably break other things though.

Video from our race in Nevada:

Please, please don't do this, I really hope you're joking. This is why they don't want to talk to "Subaru people". The guy told me they've had hundreds of people over the years ask them to make Subaru struts but then no one bought anything from them. If you were selling something and the Jeep and Toyota guys actually bought your product, and the Subaru guys just wasted your time, would you talk to them? It's like when we go to the offroad park and they hesitate to let us in because other "Subaru people" just go in and do donuts in the parking lot and don't go out on the trails. Please don't be that guy that ruins it for the rest of us.

Thanks, I'm flattered, glad you like it. Started out as a much cheaper hobby than offroad racing, just trail riding with stock Subarus, and has gotten a little out of control. The struts have been a lot of trial and error. They've never failed completely on us but we've made a lot of improvements in the last year. At the moment I'm not willing to just give away all of that, but you should be able to figure most or all of it out from what I've posted here. I don't know how much fabrication and machining experience you have, but you'd need a decent amount to make a set that will hold up. On top of all that, your XV has a multilink rear suspension, right? So that would be a totally different animal, although probably easier. Please, whatever you do, do NOT call Fox and ask them to make you a set of Subaru struts. They've had so many people call before I did and then not follow through that they almost wouldn't sell me anything and I can't blame them.

I got a laugh out of some of these comments: https://www.instagram.com/p/BKUaIoiAPe5/

I do appreciate the advice. I PMed the guy about the EJ dual range and haven't heard anything back. I have seen the dual range case kits on ebay for about $1000, is that what you're talking about? The six speed idea was mainly if we were swapping in an H6 since the five speed might not be strong enough. We usually have too much traction rather than not enough, so I don't think locking the diffs would help. The center diff was locked up for a while before we replaced the trans and the car still drove on the street OK, so I could see doing that on purpose. If we locked the rear diff also the steering brake wouldn't do anything and I'm sure it would make driving around town noisier. That's the only thing I see you suggesting that would "suck bootie" on the street. I would not be worried about shifting the low range on the fly. Just about any exhaust would be better flow than what we had! I am talking to a guy about building us a fresh engine too with pistons and cams. I know what you're saying about the dedicated race car thing, but we already have a race buggy. It is much faster than the Subaru but getting it to and from the races is a lot more expensive, slower, and more work. Plus the Outback is still the nicest car I own and I already don't have room for the cars and projects I have.

If you know of an EJ dual range for sale, let me know. The divorced transfer case seems totally impractical to me for what we're trying to do. Are you suggesting we put the stock struts back on? We'd be going half the speed with a quarter the durability.

Yes, the biggest benefit would be a granny first gear. The lower gearing itself wouldn't help much, but the closer ratios of the six speed would help. There were at least a few times where second was too low but third was too high or something like that. Still, there were probably a few times in the race we would have gone a little slower through rough or soft stuff if we had a lower first gear and weren't worried about getting stuck. And it was very hard to get going with a flat tire on soft ground with the stock gearing. I've heard the six speeds are much heavier than the five speeds though, so I have to look into that. Just read one person online saying it's only 20# heavier and another saying it's 100# heavier.

Another thing we keep discussing is the gearing on these EJ cars. I know you can get them with a low range but they seem difficult to find and I've heard they wear out fairly quickly, and I know the five speed gearboxes aren't known to be super strong. I have a low range mostly drawn up that would fit in place of the center diff that would allow FWDhi/4WDhi/4WDlo, but it would be fairly expensive to make and complicated. One of our friends has suggested making a granny first gear, which would be great, but the first gear on the shaft is already about as small as it can be, and making that whole shaft would be expensive. On the long ride back home from the race, we were thinking that a 1.2 or 1.3:1 low range would be great for racing. I don't think we've ever gone over 75mph. Then I was thinking the six speeds are stronger and closer ratio and have a larger spread of gear ratios than the five speed. We'd want to swap one in if we went to an H6 regardless. So I think the simplest and strongest solution would be a fixed gear reduction in place of the center diff around 1.5:1. We could also made sixth gear about 0.6:1, which wouldn't be too hard or expensive to make. That would give us a decent low first gear, about perfect gearing for racing in second-fifth, and similar highway gearing to what we have now in sixth. All with one shifter. The main downside I see to that plan is that we'd have no center diff, which would be kind of annoying around town, but having driven a Loyale for a couple years with the center diff permanently locked, I'd say a worthwhile compromise.

Can you put up pictures? Not sure how you'd support it from crushing the exhaust.