hove102

Update: checked radiator today, full to the brim with fresh, bright green coolant. Doesn't smell gassy or abnormal. Car doesn't run hot, and heat seems to work (checked it last night), so all signs seem to point towards something electrical unless there's something I'm missing.

I'm definitely being schooled on this, and that's not a bad thing! I'll check that first thing in the morning. I'm starting to think that it might not be bad insurance to check the t-stat and refill the car with fresh Subaru coolant & conditioner, just so I know what's going on in there. Also, is it easier to replace a clogged heater core or flush it out?

You are right about not checking the heat...it was warm on Sunday, when I bought the car, and I ran the AC the entire hour-ish drive home with no incident (no running hot). The fans didn't stick on that day even though they were functioning, even in traffic with the AC on. The receipt for the timing belt and water pump change, which was the most recent service (done back in April, IIRC) shows 2 gallons of premix on the materials list, so I know the coolant mixture is at least 50 antifreeze/50 water. I'm assuming the easiest way to check for a clogged heater core is to turn the heater on and see how hot it gets? You'll have to forgive me for not knowing a lot about cooling systems; I did my research on these cars before deciding to buy one but I've never driven anything where I've had to think about cooling this much!

Fairtax, I was thinking about that. The coolant isn't low, it was between the markers and I put a splash more water in it (just a tad) to keep it level. I haven't checked to see if the car has the original t-stat in it or not but it doesn't run hot so I'd like to think it's not a cooling issue, but some sort of electrical gremlin, mainly because the symptoms are erratic and not constant. That being said, I know it should have Subaru coolant & conditioner in it.

Update: tried tapping all the relays and the fan stayed on. It was the fan on the passenger side of the car, which, if I'm not mistaken, is the Sub fan. I know they both work because the main fan was running the other day, and the car doesn't overheat or feel like it's heatsoaking. Should I change the relays anyway, or should I check the grounds and the CTS? Or do all three?

Grounding totally hadn't occurred to me, I'll look into that as well. I haven't tried tapping the relays yet but if I can get the symptom to reoccur then I'll give that a shot.

1 Lucky Texan, where are the test connectors? I know they're under the dash on the driver's side but what am I looking for exactly? The only other electronic gremlin the car has is a speedo that will work for a while, and then stop working and then come back on whenever it chooses, but I know that has more to do with the circuitry in the gauge cluster. Grossgary, do you know which relays control the fans?

I just became the proud new owner of a Rio Red 1999 OBW, EJ25D, 4EAT, that's had a fair amount of work done by its previous owners, including the timing belt & tensioner, headgaskets, and a full trans service. So far, it seems to run pretty well, but the one weird quirk it has (so far) is that both the Main and Sub Radiator fans seem to be a bit overactive and will often stay on when the car isn't running, but the key is in the ACC or ON positions. The weird part is that when I drove around today in the heat (mid to high 80s) today with the A/C off, the fans didn't stay on, but as soon as I drove with the A/C on on my way home from work, the fans stayed on when I got home. Then, tonight, driving home with no A/C, the fans stayed on again. What I'm trying to figure out is what could be causing this. Bad/unplugged Coolant Temp Sensor? Is the relay getting stuck on sometimes? Are the fans themselves faulty? When I did research on these things before I bought one, I never found anything relating to this topic so I'm kind of at a loss here. I just bought this thing so I'm hoping it's not something catastrophic, as the car runs pretty well other than this weird gremlin. Any help would be appreciated, just go easy on me since I'm new to this whole "Subaru ownership" thing

I just wanted to have it reaffirmed for me. I do like that most of the Gen 1s came with cloth seats and not a lot of other frivolities...generally I like things as simple as possible because it means there's less to go wrong. I do like that Gen 1s seem to be a bit more plug and play when it comes to engine swaps as well, since it seems like dropping an EJ22 in is a common path people take.

I'm doing some thinking about my preference for the 00-04 Subarus, and I'm wondering whether it's right to be scared of the EJ25D motor...there are a lot of Gen 1 OBWs out there, some of them with manuals (which is now my transmission preference), and I'm wondering whether I should consider them seriously as an option. I know it was kind of already touched on, but do you guys think a 96-99 OBW with a stick is a solid investment? If I found one with a documented HG and t-belt service, would it be worth the cash? The time is getting closer to selling my Montero so I want to have a clear idea of what I'm looking for once I have cash in hand so I know which cars to pass on and which to pursue, and if I should expand or narrow my search. You guys have given me a lot of help, and I hope y'all keep it coming!

I'm jealous! I'd love to find a car like that down here...hopefully one will appear at some point. I keep trying to think of what else could do everything one of these Outbacks could do but there's just nothing else like it. I understand why you guys all like them so much!

That's what I meant. Used the wrong terminology

Also, I drove this OBW today: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?dealerId=75839&zip=92705&endYear=2016&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&location=Huntington%2BBeach%2BCA&startYear=1981&dealerName=Ocean%2BImports&searchRadius=100&listingId=398093766&Log=0 It was tired as hell, and definitely had been ridden hard and put away wet by its previous owner. However, I figured I would drive it, and let me say that you guys are all right about these cars...even with 204K on the clock and an engine that was doing some really odd things at idle (really violent vibration/shaking?), it still pulled pretty hard and the chassis felt way more solid than a car with 204K should feel. I pitched it into a couple corners and I was surprised at how well it just stuck, even with bad tires. I'm definitely sold on the OBW, especially the Gen 2, and I'm sure there's the right one out there. You were right about the automatics being less peppy...even though I haven't driven a stick yet, I could tell that it was hunting for gears and took a bit to respond to my input.

Makes sense...I spent some time in Oz and I know the regulations over there are pretty crazy when it comes to modding your vehicle, so I'm sure you guys across the Tasman have the same, if not worse regulations. I can't believe how much certification there is for modifications compared to the states! A lot of guys put the Baja springs (not sure if you guys got that vehicle in NZ) on their OBWs and it gives you another inch or so of clearance, so I'll probably just do those and a set of KYBs or Bilsteins when the time comes, and maybe spacers for a little more lift. Thanks for the input!

I did not know that Olnick, thanks for the tip. I put premium in my truck currently so I'm used to spending a bit more. By any chance, do you know if the rest of the EJ25x family runs better on premium as opposed to regular? And Todd GT5, that's the kind of personal experience I'm looking for. I'm not looking all the way back at the early Legacies, mainly because they're just too old, but good to know that you've had good luck with your Gen 2. Did you buy it from the O.O. or just another owner who also took good care of it?

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/5026457155.html This '96 just popped up today. I know I say I'm partial to the Gen 2s but this thing is gorgeous and the mileage is pretty low. Definitely keeping an eye on this one. Anyone have any thoughts? I'm also currently drooling over these Gen 2s: http://sandiego.craigslist.org/ssd/cto/5025562665.html http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/5011729619.html http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=92705&endYear=2008&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&mmt=%5BSUB%5BSUBOUTBK%5B%5DFOREST%5B%5DLEGACY%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&modelCode1=SUBOUTBK&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&makeCode2=SUB&modelCode2=FOREST&showcaseOwnerId=1361865&startYear=1981&makeCode1=SUB&modelCode3=LEGACY&firstRecord=26&makeCode3=SUB&searchRadius=100&listingId=398090551&Log=0 (probably going to go look at this one this weekend since it's at a "dealer") http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=92705&endYear=2016&modelCode1=SUBOUTBK&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=1361865&startYear=1981&makeCode1=SUB&searchRadius=100&maxPrice=4000&mmt=%5BSUB%5BSUBOUTBK%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=398784541&Log=0 (this one's at an auction place which I'm not so sure about, but I like the color & mileage)

You're right...I'd totally forgotten about that. That's that whole newb thing coming in to play...I thought I'd read about guys using Forester springs to lift their 00-04 Outbacks, but I think I might be lumping Forester springs and Baja springs together even though they're completely different vehicles and the Baja is actually related to the Outback. And I can handle oil leaks, everything I've owned so far has leaked a little bit of oil so it doesn't faze me unless it gets bad. Coolant leaks are what scare me. I noticed you have Kings on your Forester, would you recommend them for a real lift over just swapping to taller springs from another Subaru?

These are all good points...I suppose it all does come down to personal preference past a certain point. If I can avoid doing a full engine swap, I'd prefer that...not that I don't love getting my hands dirty, but that's a little bit (lotta bit?) out of my comfort zone. Based on that, I'll probably end up focusing more on Gen 2s unless I can find some unicorn-Gen 1 that I absolutely can't pass up. I know it's not the most popular opinion, but I really do like the looks of the Gen 2...I think it's because I grew up seeing them so they're what I gravitate towards!

Would a 2.2 be totally gutless with an automatic? For $3K I'd like to not have to do a lot of work off the bat though! Haha...and since we're talking engine swaps, how hard would it be to put a turbo motor in a car that didn't originally come with one?

Modernity, to be honest. The convenience features get better on newer vehicles, and I am a sucker for how the Gen 2 OBWs look too. That's not to say that a 99 OBW wouldn't be awesome, especially one with low mileage, but if I could find a 03 for the same money, I'd gladly choose the 03. Plus I've heard too many scary things about the EJ25D to be confident in buying one. That being said, there is a really clean 99 being sold by the original owner that I'm keeping my eye on. This one: http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/5017905902.html Any reason you'd choose a Gen 1 over a Gen 2?

That's a good point, and one I've thought about, but since I barely have time to off-road now it's not something I'm concerning myself with at the immediate moment. Down the, line, I'd probably end up putting Forester or Baja springs on my (future) Outback, or possibly even the King lift springs if I was feeling like dropping some serious cash. I've thought about Foresters too, but they're pretty hard to come by in this neck of the woods, especially in my price range, or without obscenely high miles. I'll still go drive one! Who knows, my opinion may be changed once I drive both of them. I do like the way Foresters look.....

Funny thing, I've actually been keeping an eye on both of those cars since they popped up on Craigslist! The red one just got its price lowered, which is nice, but it has two stereo head units in the dash, which kinda weirds me out. Little things like that make me more uneasy than they probably should. The green one is a stick, which is cool, but it's at the upper end of my price range and since it's at a dealer, I'm not sure how willing to haggle they'd be. And if I knew anything about SVXs/didn't want a wagon, I might be all over that! I do know that the EG33 motor in those is pretty awesome though. And AdventureSubaru, that's good to know. I'd always heard that the EJ22 was the superior engine of that generation, and since I need something that doesn't need the engine swapped right away, I'll stick with the 00-04s. Jeep Grand Cherokees of the mid-90s with the Quadratrac AWD system have a similar torque bind phenomenon when their viscous couplers fail, so I'm sure the sensation is similar in an Outback...kinda feels like you're driving with both axles locked, right? Tires chirp, engine bogs, etc? I would like an LL Bean with the EZ30 but most of those are out of my price range or pretty abused in my price range, so unless a diamond in the rough appears, I'll probably end up with an EJ251 car.

Hahaha I agree... And I'd say it's an amateur level. I can handle a lot of things, but HGs might be a bit much, especially since I don't have the space to have a car blown apart for as long as it takes to do that job. That's my biggest issue, along with lack of experience. I don't have the experience or equipment to surface the heads and the block before putting it all back together. And I've looked at the 1996-99 OBWs as well. I go back and forth on the looks (the early OBWs look a bit more rally-esque, which is pretty cool), but I've heard some iffy things about the Phase I EJ25s. All the clean 96-99s down in SoCal are about the same price as a clean 00-04, and given that choice I'll go with the newer example. If the HGs on a Phase I have been replaced correctly with the updated gaskets, is it likely for them to fail again? Also, is there any reliability difference between the DOHC heads on the Phase I and the SOHC heads on the Phase II?

Thanks so much guys! I knew I should have come here first to get advice on OBWs. Reading your posts has definitely given me a lot more faith in these cars, more than I already had. Something told me what that guy was saying about overheating issues was a load of nonsense. AdventureSubaru, when you refer to transmission issues, are you talking about things like like torque bind, slow shifting, etc? Also, what do you consider the difference between seeping and leaking? I'm assuming with leaking you mean seeing actual liquid coming out and not just a damp spot. If it were your money, would you buy an auto or a manual? I'm going to be daily driving this thing, so while it would be fun to have a manual, an auto would save my left leg a lot of work. Does the stick make the car any more fun or peppy?

Now that I've got your attention, time to tell my story/ask my questions. Like (I'm sure a lot of you on here), I've been a Subaru fanboy for as long as I can remember. Growing up I watched the WRC on TV as much as I could and I remembered, more than anything else, those WRC Blue and yellow Subarus screaming through stages and absolutely embarrassing everything else out there. From a young age, I knew I had to own a Subaru at some point. I also remember going to local auto shows and drooling over the brand new Subies on the show floor and sitting in any of the ones I could. Fast forward 10+ years, and here I am looking for my third car. First was a '94 Volvo 940 wagon that I kept for 4 years, but got rid of when it started to get old (and expensive). I'd also outgrown the car and wanted to get something that could do more. I was abroad in Oz for a semester and when I came back, I bought an '03 Montero Sport. Good truck, but abysmal fuel mileage and completely not what I was looking for in a commuter vehicle for school and work, and I can't find the time to actually off-road it like I wanted to. That's where I am today, trying to sell the Monty and hopefully buy a used version of those Outbacks I drooled over as a kid. I've done a lot of reading on this site, NASIOC, Edmunds, etc, and I've absorbed a LOT of information, so now I'm coming to you guys for your personal experiences. Ideally, I want a 2000-04 OBW (in a lighter color) that's been as well-kept as possible by the previous owners. Here are my questions for you guys (based on personal experiences, others' testimony, etc): 1.Is there any year of OBW, between 2000 and 2004, that's better than any other? I know my dad always abides by the "never buy the first year of anything" rule, so that's pretty ingrained in me as well. I also know that '03-on EJ25s have a decreased risk of HG failure; is this true? 2.How many miles is too many? Where do you make the cutoff as to whether a car is worth the money or not? My price cap is $3.5K, so whatever I find under that is going to have a lot of miles, and I know it depends on how well kept the car is, but when should I walk away? 3.Do any of you ever have problems with your car running hot during normal driving? I had a guy on another forum (not Subaru-specific) say that "any time the needle is past normal your [sic] overheated" and that "I would have to go into full temp management mode to climb a grade, even with new head gaskets"...he also went on to say that the design of the car led to poor cooling. I have a hard time believing Subaru would knowingly sell a car to the public with a cooling system that poorly designed. 4.Are there any items you guys would recommend I specifically inspect pre-purchase, and is there anything you recommend I should do shortly after initial purchase, just as peace-of-mind maintenance/care? Sorry for being so wordy, this was half an introducing myself post and half a OBW-specific post, and I could go on with all the other nit-picky questions I have. I'll stop now so you guys don't just ignore this! Anyway, I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say and hopefully adding to my Subie knowledge so that I feel comfortable when I go look at OBWs! Thanks!