Johngenx

I gotta say that I hope no one else does some of the things from this thread. Waiting until the low oil pressure light comes on to add oil is insane. The engine is down 3 quarts? It only holds about 4! That light is a "holy cow you're out of oil" kinda light, not a "think about putting some oil in when you wish" light.

Way I see it, the OBW is a great car, and with the HG done, it's probably got years and years of trouble free service left. Why take a loss on it now? Even if the HG fails again in the distant future, so what? Even if you buy a Corolla, you might have a problem with it. There's no way you can be assured that you'll have a perfect car, no matter who makes it. Other than the HG issue, the 2000+ models seem pretty bullet-proof to me. No major tranny issues, emissions issues seem minor to non-existant, the AC systems seem good, and I haven't found any debilitating problems so far. That 02 sounds like a keeper, no doubt.

I might not jump on an 05, since it's the first year. But, in 2010 our 01 OBW will probably be replaced with an 06 version, maybe a GT.

Yup. Both our AT OBW and Forester do it.

NO! Keep 'em U-G-L-Y! I don't mind the kindy ugly look of our 01 Forester, and if keepin' 'em ugly keeps resale low, those of us that love buying three year old Subies for a fraction of the new price will put up with homely looks!

Quite a few of my neighbours have had Caravans/Intrepids, etc. Everyone of them was junk. My wife had a 97 BMW 528i that she didn't like much (bought a 98 E300td, there's a story...) and we ended up selling it to one of our Intrepid driving neighbours. Over the last few years, they've been shocked at how little it costs to run the BMW vs. their now-gone Intrepid! One thing we didn't like about the BMW was it's high running costs compared to the MB's we've owned. I guess it depends on your experiences and perspective. My 98 Mercedes is pretty much one of the last of the "simple" MB's made. All 2001- models are filled with technology that the driver never really sees and does nothing more than add parts to break. Example? My ACC system uses four computer controlled "doors" to direct airflow. Pretty much the same system MB used for over a decade, only with updated digital controls. In 2001, they started using systems that had up to 30 electronic doors. The old ACC system worked really well. Change for change's sake. Even the newest Subarus seem like pretty simple and straightforward vehicles to me. I might be hesitant about the five speed automatic, but hopefully Subaru got theirs right from the get-go. Acura, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, almost everyone had problems with their first five speed designs. One thing I like about Subaru is the infrequent changes to things that work. They didn't revamp the AWD system on a yearly basis. The SOHC 2.5L engine wasn't a two year run. Also, sharing the 2.5L driveline among all models was pretty smart. Cut production costs, but also focus on one driveline, and get the thing right. Mercedes used to do this, and to a point still do. When David E Davis Jr. left Car and Driver to start his own mag, there was some hard fellings back at C&D. They wrote a piece that D.E.D Jr's new mag would only contain articles about Mercedes-Benzes and Subarus, since they were the only two brands D.E.D liked personally. I would have liked that publication...

Chrysler made tons of mini-vans and cars with bad paint, crappy auto-boxes, poor AC systems and numerous other faults. The killer is that they knew about them for years and never took one step to fix a thing. Ford has a long list of junk, including Windstars with junky trannies and failing headgaskets. Subaru has some minor faults and is not to be compared to the contant-lemon-making "Big Three." My hope is that GM does not allow it's culture of grbage to infiltrate Subaru. Since merging with Chrysler, Mercedes products have taken a huge nosedive in quality, now sitting at the bottom of the barrel. No surprise. The makes to watch are the Koreans. They have been toiling hard on improving their build quality.

It might be the LSD in the rear. When we were shopping for our Forester, I drove an L model and found it would oversteer much greater if the rear wheels got a big dose while turning compared to our OBW, which has rear LSD. The Forester we bought is an S with LSD, and it won't "donut" like the non-LSD models we test drove.

Our Forester is on all-season tires, so we've been leaving it at home lots lately. They're just useless. Even AWD can't manufacture traction, it's all about tires. Our OBW is on studded snows, as is the Mercedes. Even the RWD no LSD MB can haul away from AWD SUV's on all-seasons. The OBW is terrific, but the 3600lb weight is a bit of an enemy stopping on ice. The 3150lb Forester should be great next year when I can get tires for it.

Today we took our OBW out to help a friend of mine prep his cottage for sale. The road is not plowed in the winter and I led the way. The snow was two and a half to three feet deep and there was no problem. When we stopped, we had trouble opening the doors since the snow was so high! Studded snow tires, btw...

After doing lots of searching here, and other places, and talking to Subie fans, I have come to the following conclusions: 1. The 2.5L DOHC engine has a higher incidence of HG failure than some other Subaru engines. These tend to be "internal" leaks, meaning you must have them replaced to avoid damage. 2. The SOHC 2.5L engine has some issues with HG's, but mostly "external" in nature, and not as critical to have replaced immediately. 3. Either 2.5L DOHC or SOHC engine is awesome otherwise. I have now met some OB and Forester owners with huge mileages and their engines are bullet-proof. Even if you have the head gasket done, the engine is perfect otherwise. 4. Subarus have few other problems in general. They seem to have missed the flood of sludged engines that have effected others, have pretty reliable automatics and strong suspension systems. AC systems seem pretty reliable, and most electrical accessories hold up well. It seems to me that overall the failure rate is not something to get freaked out over, and if it does happen, it's not going to drain your account by having to be done frequently. Having only been a Subaru owner for about 13 months, I am not at all discouraged by the HG issue. They just have too many redeeming qualities.

The problem with forums like these is that you don't see posts describing the months and years of reliable service people have realized from their Subarus. Go to Edmunds and surf some of the Honda and Toyota forums and you'll think that they're the worst cars ever made! Subarus are considered to sit on a second tier of reliability right under the pair of Honda/Toyota, and that's probably fair. However, even the mighty Toyota has watched their Camry fall to "average" reliability as rated by CR. Wassup? Well, everyone is getting better. Cars overall are much more reliable. You can pine for the good old days all you like, but modern engines are bullet proof for longer, bodies no longer rust before the payments are up, and few cars need an hour's worth of ministering on a cold morning to get going. It's tougher for Toyota to stay far ahead. I belong to a Mercedes forum where we often compare "new" vs. "old" models. Newer cars are more complex and the gadgets break, but the drivelines last nearly forever, the AC systems never need attention, the bodies don't rust and in day to day living, they require a great deal less attention. Overall, I think that Subaru vehicles are robust. Even DOHC 2.5 engines that need head gaskets are good engines. They need a gasket, not a rebuild. Some of my friends have owned a series of Chrysler vehicles. Sheesh, what trouble! Trannies replaced constantly, broken AC systems, failing head gaskets, suspension and steering parts constantly being replaced, and so on. Junk. Subarus are light years beyond "Big Three" junk. Why is the new Saab a rebadged Subaru? Cause GM can't build a car to save their lives. If you want the most reliable car made, go buy an Echo or a Corolla. They're simple, well made, and unfortunately, BORING AS HELL. I love my Maytag applicances. They just sit there, unsexy, never breaking. But, I don't want a Maytag car. I want something well made, but it should have an element of fun and some spirit. Also, though Subaru has become more popular lately, either of our Subies is usually alone, or one of just a few, sitting in a parking lot next to a sea of mini-vans.

Beofre getting into the switches and wiring, make sure the doors are closed. No, this is not a wisecrack. On our Forester, the hatch must be closed VERY firmly to make sure the door-open light is out. There is a bit of play in the latch right now (I will solve tomorrow when I tackle a few other jobs on the Forester) and needs some adjustment. If all the doors are closed firmly, and no amount of "wiggling" makes the light go on/off, then you will have to investigate further.

I wonder if Japan has some sorta regs about low-volume whimpy horns? Both our OBW an Forester have pathetic horns. Our old Mazda was worse, and an Acura I had years ago was like something out of old Herbi movie.

All Mercedes models have had them on this side of the pond since about 1992 or so. They use one light on the driver's side that illuminates bright red, increasing visibility greatly for vehicles following you in poor conditions. I have used it frequently on my MB's in blowing snow, fog, heavy rain and so on. I know that Volvo also uses them, and probably most European makes. I prefer having a rear fog lamp to the mostly-for-show front fog lamps most cars/SUV's/Vans have now. I was disappointed to find that neither of our Subarus are so equipped. A company that markets it's vehicles as useful in poor weather conditions should have them as standard equipment.

Thanks! Sounds pretty simple. It's supposed to be nice and warm tomorrow, so I'll pick up the bulbs in the morning and tackle it. It's nice that the cluster comes out from the front without much difficulty. As an aside, on most MB models, you use a special ($4) tool that pops the cluster out in about 10 seconds. Our old Mazda had you practically disassembling the entire dash. Yuck.

Yeah, I searched, but only found info on the OB. Was hopiung to find some Forester specific info...

The bulb that illuminates the left hand portion of the cluster, namely the fuel gauge is not working. Does anyone know how big a job it is to access the cluster bulbs?

Ah, so that car uses a hot-film sensor system for measuring incoming air charge. Yes, those little wires wear out over time, and with most makes, cleaning is a short term solution. What does a meter for a Subaru cost? The one for my Mercedes is not too bad at about $400. I have seen some makes at $1300.

I'm not sure about Subaru systems, but a fuel trim malfunction indicates that the FI system cannot fully compensate for either a rich or lean condition. On many cars, they use O2 sensors post combustion and some sort of either airflow rate meter or air mass meter pre combustion. How does the car in question determine the incoming air charge? That device would certainly be suspect. Does the OBD-II system on Subarus store adaptation values for fuel trim? If so, read the adaptation values to determine rich/lean condition and start digging from there.

Overall, Subaru's are pretty simple. I think both our 01 models are very simple and have few gadgets or overly-complex systems. Even the AWD systems are simple in comparision to many makes, even the AT version. They seem quite simple to work on and while parts can be pricey, the cars are well made and pretty reliable compared to most everything save for a base Corolla or Echo. No one would buy a 1990 Legacy if it were marketed today. While the newer cars have more stuff that might break, consumers have demanded more features. Makers have simply responded to pressure.

Our 01 OBW has side airbags, but only the "Limited" (not sure what it was called in the US) trim level has them. It included an upgraded sound system with window glass antenna, leather interior, dual sunroofs, gold trim wheels, and some other minor things. I wanted to find a Forester Limited, but thay are rare birds indeed in my parts. It was tough enough finding a cherry "S" trim model. I think off-lease Subies (3-4 year old models) are bargains! We bought our OBW last year, and at barely three years old, we paid about 40% of MSRP, and that was from a dealer. I could not find a private sale Limited version, unfortunately. The AWD system in the Subaru is not inexpensive to produce and they have struggled with currency fluctuations trying to keep MSRP's in line. I don't think the 2005 Legacys are all that good value wise, with a 2005 Outback Ltd. striking well into the $40K's, and coming hard on $50K. (Canuck bucks) I know in three years it'll sell for 20K tops, maybe even $16-18K. I'm not willing to take a $10,000 per year depreciation hit. Thankfully, there are those that do, and then bail just as the depreciation "cliff" is levelling off. One thing I do like better on the Forester is the door handles. They're a pull-type instead of the flip-up levers. But, the Forester doors are no more robust than the OBW doors. Now, in fairness, the CR-V/Rav4, etc. doors are no better, and none of the Japanese products have the same body strength of the European makes, especially Mercedes and Volvo. I just haven't seen "bank vault" doors on any Japanese make, even their luxury cars. The value of the current Japanese makes is their reliability, especially with respect to elelctrical components. My Mercedes' four cylinder engine has massive bearings, forged steel crank-shaft and pistons (no cast parts!) and a monsterous double row timing chain. Those engines easily go 500,000km's without having any work at all done. However, you get $1000'd to death with other repairs, mostly electrical parts. Power windows, AC/ACC systems, audio components, Air Mass Meters, and for some years entire wiring harnesses. A drive-by-wire system repair can be $3000 on some models, and replacing an evaporator on many MB's is a $7500 job. The driveline will last decades, but your bank account is drained by other parts. My Father-in-Law is a Volvo nut, having owned a 245 that he bought new in 78 and finally retired in 96 with about 600K on the odo. He bought an 850 and it was pretty much worn-through last year with only 170K on it. No driveline problems, but thousands in suspension, AC, and other repairs. He bought an S60AWD this year, and has had no problems, but he never drives it, either. The relative simplicity of my current C230 has meant that it has been very reliable and inexpensive to operate, but it lacks a great deal of the technology contained in the newer cars. The new cars integrate many systems into single "busses" and complex units, where the Japanese makes use discrete systems for the same purposes, meaning simpler components, but more of them. This seems to work better. I don't know why MB needs a super-computer to run the power windows. My perfect car would have the structure designed and manufactured by Mercedes with a Mercedes driveline attached to a Subaru AWD system, Toyota electronics and Hyundai warranty.

I love both our Subies, but truthfully, I find the doors tinny and the entire body structures flexy. There is lots of wind noise, tire noise and the frameless doors don't do a great job of insulating sound. I find the steering too light, brakes need too much effort and the pedal is soft and the interior switchgear feels plasticky and hollow. Now, to be fair, this is in comparision to my Mercedes. But, when new, our OBW was just about the same MSRP and the Forester not far behind. Why do I love the Subarus? The AWD system is awesome, and to get an MB with 4-matic is a huge jump in price. Also, overall reliability of the Subarus is the equal or better of the MB. Both the Subies have more interior space, better stereos and some off-road capability, unlike the 4-matic MB sedans. Also, Subaru models do well in crash testing and despite missing some safety gear (no standard side bags, no ETRs) they are very safe. The other thing I love about Subaru is the dismal resale. We bought both our three year old Subies for less than half of MSRP and for far less than I could pick up a similar German AWD model.

Just checked our 01 OBW, and the green is the colour everywhere but on the lower cladding and bumpers.

Runaway Audis had nothing to do with DBW. User malfunction. Mercedes has used drive-by-wire since roughly 1990, and since about 1997 on all it's models. It's quite reliable, provides excellent "feel" but if it breaks, it's VERY VERY expensive to fix. The little motor that moves the throttle is about $2000 on it's own. If you're concerned about expense, you might ask the parts dept. how much a new throttle actuator for a Forester is. BMW has used similar systems for many years as well, and on some models (M models with individual throttles) it can cost thousands and thousands of dollars to repair. The DBW systems in MB's and other makes have fail safe systems to make sure cars don't take off on their own, and as far as I know, no one has ever had the throttle "accelerate" on it's own. Failure always means that you can't drive, not that it drives "too much." The nice thing about DBW systems is that you can have the throttle system tied into the trans controller, cruise control, and other functions. On my Mercedes, the cruise control is incredibly accurate, can shift gears to help control speed (some systems do it withour DBW, but not with the same fine tuning) and the idle control is very accurate. After having owned three different Mercedes models with drive-by-wire (95 C36AMG, 98 E300TD and 98 C230) I haven't had any problems, but the slight benefits are probably not worth the added expense and complexity. With German cars, the V-8 and V-12 models fry their systems with regularity and it seems to be related to engine bay heat. My own gasoline four, diesel six and gasoline six had no failures, even in the high performance C36. The one thing about Japanese makes is they make much better electrical systems. German cars have tons of gadget problems. I would be more inclined to trust a DBW system made by Subaru than one made by MB, BMW, Audi or VW.