Hank Roberts

Edited to get the details right. Shawn, please review, some of your comments were not on point because I hadn't clearly summarized things. The engine has 750-800 miles or so on it overall, I can check exactly. Much closer to 1000 than 500 total. I said it doesn't shake on idle --- that means I don't feel the shaking in the gas pedal that I describe (and the mechanic has confirmed) in first gear 2wd up a steep slope. But you read what I wrote and took it wrong. The car idles rough -- I expected that in the first thousand miles. Yes, I can hear the unevenness in the exhaust as it idles when it's cold, rm-rm-rm-PT-rm-rm-rm-PT-rm-rm-rm .... and feel it holding my hand over the exhaust. All that's consistent with a little unevenness, from my long ago experience with 1960s cars. None of that was a big deal. But you took it to mean the engine runs smoothly. It doesn't. I didn't expect it to. I did expect it to get better not worse as it wore in. It hasn't. The other possibliities remain, but see next post about trusting the mechanic-- the rebuilder picked the mechanic for me to go to because they've trusted them before and sent new customers there since. ---- details above added on later edit. Oh -- does this have anything to do with blowing a big cloud of white smoke, just once, the only time I took a tight descending 3/4 turn entering a freeway (Ukiah from N. State Street to 101 north, one of those that really throws you left while you're going down turning right). I thought maybe that was new=engine behavior too? The engine first arrived late last summer -- didn't get installed, because its heads hadn't been properly ground and it was leaking oil into the engine and water into the oil -- the shop confirmed they had a bad employee who hadn't properly reground the heads. They fixed that. Engine went in in the fall and I drove it maybe 300-400 miles, some long mountain trips. Then it started leaking coolant (big white misty cloud on starting) and the engine went back for reseal of cylinder heads and cam housings. While it was away last time the front axles were replaced; the engine was put back in. It began shaking in first uphill then. It hadn't shaken like that the first time. So I suspected everything else (listed above). I ran it another 340 miles last weekend and brought it back in -- still with the pronounced first gear uphill shake and a brake noise. So they'll have a new set of compression numbers tomorrow AM -- and those will be at around 700-800 miles since the first rebuild, and around 400 miles since the second rebuild. Does that make any more sense to you? From what you say I better understand why they'd all send me out onto the road -- I knew the engine needed some wearing-in. But it got worse, not better, over the last 400 miles. These things don't get worse while they're wearing in, do they? I stayed under 4000 RPM, drove normally, didn't 'baby' it or drive like I'd stolen it either one. I also think it's smart to get a baseline measure on anything though -- see no problem with the mechanic recording compression (I now understand why they told me it was ok to drive at 500 miles with those numbers -- they would agree with you and the rebuilder that it just wasn't worn in yet). I've told them exactly where I drive it, the long run in 4wd low first gear climbing into the mountains -- and the rebuilder and mechanic both said that's ok to drive in the wearing-in time. they know this is why I bought the car). So -- at over 700 miles on the rebuild, would you expect compression-related shaking to be developing and getting worse? I'll post today's compression numbers when I get them. And I agree with you, I don't have what it takes to own one of these cars bought second hand. I do in fact have the John Muir book and used it, and checked all the records -- and knew it was a gamble for a 1988 car. I lost the gamble, at least financially. Experience is what we get when we didn't have foresight.

Check the 'Older Generation' forums, if your 5-speed comes from a 1988/9 or earlier 4wd wagon.

Talked to the mechanic, who says he used new not rebuilt axles from a company with "MH" in its name -- he's got the flu, didn't remember. That worries me. Anyone recognize that as a brand name? Not Subaru parts. But -- but -- but But the mechanic just told me -- now! -- that when he got my engine back from the rebuilder -- on April 14th! -- he'd measured compression at 150/175/165/165 psi. And called the rebuilder then, to say send a replacement -- the rebuilder told the mechanic that they didn't have another engine to send, and the car sat a month while they weren't talking to each other. A week ago he gave me the car because I had gear to take out to the mountain, still without an answer from the rebuilder. They thought it might be okay. I hadn't a clue about this or wouldn't have taken it out. Duh. The mechanic says now the vibration going uphill in first gear is because of the weak cylinder. He said "but this only happens going straight up a hill, can't you go around?" I reminded him I got this car to climb 3000' in first gear, there is no 'around' to get to my site. He said, duh, he knew that. He's remeasuring the compression -- with 400 miles I put on the engine -- and calling the rebuilder back right now. This was never "my" engine -- the rebuilder sent me one they did for some European hovercraft guy who didn't take it back; my original got rebuilt for the next person, going on 9 months ago now. It already went back once before and the rebuilder agreed their employee had screwed it up. I wish I know who got my old engine. I bet he's happy. Dang. ----------------- I'm going over to the New Subaru forums; got offered first dibs on a 2003 Forester with 20k miles (not til July, though). I hope that comes through, maybe I'd have better luck with that.

Ack. There are six topics mentioning piston slap in the list at the bottom of the page. How serious is this? We just got offered a 2003 Forester, does Subaru's warranty go with the car or end when the first owner sells it?

We used a long narrow Yakima box for years on a Toyota Tercel wagon -- filled half the width of the roof exactly, leaving plenty of space for tools, hang gliders, or other gear. It stuck out about a foot over the passenger side front window, fine extra sunshade. Opened wide from the side (stick a LED light to the inside roof, you'll need illumination sometimes). When I went camping by myself, I usually rolled in somewhere late, pulled out gear and tossed it in the wagon, put the camping pad and sleeping bag in the pod and slept there quite comfortably. It's just above the altitude mosquitos fly hereabouts. It's possible to pee off the side without getting up or getting the car wet, too. It got stolen along with the car a few years ago, sadly. If anyone sees an old style Yakima "Rocket Box" -- boxy back end, narrows like a wedge to the front -- that has circles of gray-green lichen growing on it, especially a big round patch on the back side -- that's mine. I'd put another on a Forester for sure, looking at one now.

I'm bumping this up because we have been offered first dibs on a 2003 Forester -- friend's mother is going to sell it before moving for retirement living. I'll be back with mileage and model once I know them! We're in No. Ca. and pretty sure we want this one -- just starting the checklist to know what to watch for. Does Subaru allow transfer of the 6yr/60k powertrain warranty, or does that evaporate with a used one?

Or get it rebuilt, CCRinc@aol.com (Colorado Component Rebuilders) is mentioned lots of places in the forums here.

Yeah, our local police say always use a steering wheel lock ("Club") with older cars, that the regular joyriders and serious thieves have a handful of keys nowadays that will open and start almost any 1980s Japanese car. And there's not even a search bulletin if your car's stolen -- if it turns up being ticketed for sitting somewhere that's the first time it matches up in the system with theft reports. Nobody looks for it.

Okay, I'm an idiot. Differential mounting rubber explained here: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?p=469763 Mechanic called and said the same thing you all said, that rubber mount looks OK, and it's normal to be able to see right through the holes. That clunking noise I developed in the last 50 miles on the way home was the left rear brake falling apart -- backing plate banging on the wheel, I think he said? It didn't affect the braking performance, no pull, fooled me completely --- it just clanked with every rotation. Good thing I crawled the last few miles, I guess. Brakes just do that? (shudder!) Still no answer for sure on the vibration in first gear uphill in 2wd -- but he'll drive up the big hill and test for that, after the brake parts come in tomorrow. And he'll look into the creaking/groaning right front strut on big bumps and when the steering's fully left or right.

A mechanic I know tells me he's started being very, very careful buying refrigerant -- every relatively inexpensive container he's had for the past few years he's had tested and found all sorts of crap in them that didn't belong. Propane, industrial waste gases, just nasty. He's having the same experience with his auto parts suppliers -- anything relatively inexpensive is very unlikely to be what he paid for these days, lots of fake parts in convincing packages. Apparently it's easier to copy the packages perfectly (sigh). Oh, this guy repairs big Dodge firetrucks and such -- where he really has to get good parts.

OK -- I'll find something the mechanic can put on display, like a "thank you, I'm an idiot" card (wry grin). He deserves it.

--------- Question answered in the first few replies, thank you all -------- Ok, I was tracking this question in the "vibration" thread I started earlier. *And I've done an hour of web searching and not come up with a description or picture of what I'm asking about, so ... help? Give me a sanity check, someone who knows parts? --the mount for the rear differential, at its front end, where the U-joint connects -- does it have some openings all the way through it so the rubber can flex and the bolt move a bit? So a flashlight can shine right through the big ring mounted on the body of the car, from which the differential is hanging, past the bolt and washers on either side of that ring? The thing shouldn't be solid rubber at all? --I'll go apologize to the mechanic if so. Meanwhile-- The clunking that developed getting home turns out NOT to be any of the above: Mechanic called. Part of the left rear brake had broken off and was causing the clanking that I drove it in with. (It didn't pull at all when braking, though I noticed a bit more whooshing than usual with brakes applied -- go figure). He says he's looked at the area I suspected -- where the front of the rear differential hangs from the body -- and he says it's normal to be able to shine a flashlight through that opening alongside the bolt, that the rubber piece there is not solid, it has gaps in it to let that connection move around. Ok, I can believe it. But the car did have the mysterious shaking when going uphill in first gear 2wd all along. I assume it still will when the brake is repaired. I asked him to go drive it up the steepest road in town [straight up Marin from the "Bears" fountain circle for those who know Berkeley] once he gets the brakes fixed. The 'vibration when going up hill in first gear' was variously thought to be U-joints, engine/transmission/differential mounts, struts -- is still is an open question. To be addressed after the brakes are repaired. And should I still ask him, if the vibration is still there, to drop the driveshaft and check the U-joints and that mount?

Well I have had a lot of repair done this past year, or not done, based on what the mechanics believed could and couldn't be possible and didn't look at -- sounds like you have too. I'm still suspicious on mine, I'd bet that after all this I've got other bad rubber mounts -- even though I asked the shop to check each of them while the motor and transmission were out. I have a steep street for them to test it on next time that requires first gear to get up. And will insist. I'm slow to get pissed and I'm getting there. The motor has been out twice -- the first rebuild engine I got came bad, got sent back, came back leaking coolant, got sent back, and I've got about 450 miles on the second rebuild. So it's not like there wasn't time to check all these mounts. Heck, I asked the current mechanic to check the mounts and shocks at the back while the differential was just recently out. Three mechanics I've had this car to in the past year didn't check -- or don't know how to recognize a good mount. After 230k plus miles I new the rubber would likely be bad if it was still original.

Sounds exactly like the what my 1988 GL did with a slowly degrading Throttle Position Sensor. I don't know if yours has that item -- it's a solid state device. Once I had mine replaced I was just amazed, I'd been driving the Subaru for a year off and on between repair and replacement vacations, thought I knew how it felt. I drove it over 300 miles last weekend after the TPS was changed. It was completely different. Smooth, predictable increase and decrease in RPMs with gas pedal motion, instead of the ratchety jerky sometimes delayed response, and far more of a range of motion/RPMs than I had ever known these engines were capable of. The throttle used to basically offer just 'sputter along, roll along, try to go fast' -- it's now a whole smooth range of motion. It's the one thing I've gotten fixed on the, well, third try. First try the mechanic didn't believe there could be a problem. Switched mechanics. Second place just "cleaned the TPS" without testing it, didn't believe me. I brought it back and insisted they do the test by the book and it failed completely. They found one from a junkyard and at my insistence they tested that before putting it in, instead of just swapping parts and pretending it was a repair.

I'm not even sure the U-joint is bad, it looks fine close up once I cleaned off road dust. I think the front end of the differential was just bouncing an inch or so up and down and front and back, and the clanking is the crossbolt that's now floating in the opening where the rubber used to be as the U-joint rotates, it'd thrash up and over and down with each rotation. They replaced the differential about 400 miles ago.

Ok this is different. Under the car, looking at the differential from the right hand side. The front end of the differential, before the U-joint, hangs down from the body. There's a big round metal ring it hangs from, by a bolt through the ring. I can see daylight all 'round the bolt and washer -- nothing around it to hold it from bouncing around. Looks like there used to be rubber in there and it's all gone. I wonder if the shaking in first gear, and now the grinding noise, was just the metal pieces rattling around loose? There's a good half inch of air around the bolt that looks like it should have been rubber. Guess I'll find out tomorrow.

To clarify --- he put in the clutch plate no charge; charged about $80 for the part. He had everything out of the engine compartment at the time anyhow, paid by the rebuilder, under their warranty. All I can say is, thank God for companies that honor their warranties..... but I wish one rebuild was all it needed. I crawled under and looked last night. The U-joint (between drive shaft and rear differential) is powder-white shading to blue metal. Looks like it got hot. That's different. Nothing else obviously changed from the day before. I suspect I better put some oil on it before trying the 10 blocks to the mechanic, if it turns at all Tuesday AM. Well, the last freeway miles I drove, it's either bridge or traffic lanes between barrier dividers, couldn't have stopped without being rear-ended in holiday traffic. Just as I got off I passed a mother goose followed by two tiny babies, hiking along the exit lane, they had only about 150 feet to go to where there was a grassy shoulder and some space to escape into the median. Must've tried to cross the freeway from the Bay side a mile or two back and hit the barriers in the middle. Hope they made it.

Very helpful, thank you. Well, front struts and the section between the differential and the transmission) are all I hadn't so far replaced or rebuilt. Figures!

I seriously can't work on a vehicle myself (well, I'm fixing the inside of the 1969 Dodge camper van, but have a competent Dodge mechanic for anything else). The Subaru, I am afraid, was just worn out by neglect when I bought it. Clarify for me -- the shaking problem is most noticeable (going uphill in first) in front wheel drive. Are there U-joints involved at all in front wheel drive system? The noise in the rear is in 2wd (haven't been in 4wd since it started earlier this afternoon). When the 5-speed dual range is in front wheel setting, how much of the drive train to the rear is even turning?

[oops, duplicate post removed]

350 miles later .... I got to the first long uphill -- a series of switchbacks (paved road) up from the north end of Potter Valley. That's the end of the pavement. I'd driven about 120 miles of freeway and 20 miles of paved road, with about the same shaky-in-first as before, figured I'd chance it. On those paved switchbacks, a long steep climb in first gear --2wd-- the front end shook badly the whole way up. Well, OK, I was committed to back roads at that point. I drove on in on the dirt road in 2wd, about the same; bit of pavement near Lake Pillsbury; then onto the mountain road climbing, gravel and dirt and steep. Much less shaking while in 4wd in first gear -- both high and low range, I drive the last 9 miles climbing about 3000' in low first. But there's a whole lot more noise than before in the right front wheel -- groans at full lock left and right, creaks on bumps. Same noise I complained about before the mechanic replaced both front axles/joints, and that was before the shudder started. I decided I didn't trust the car to poke around more in the back country, slept over -- stars!! -- cold but worth the trip to see the stars. Got up, packed and drove home this morning. After the long drop down to Lake Pillsbury (engine braking mostly) the middle part of the trip home was by a different route -- long stretch of dirt road to Elk mountain, not steep, curvy; little noise from the right front again, usual shaking in first --and now in second gear - while accelerating. Getting worse. Pavement starts with a long series of S-curves and switchbacks off Elk Mountain. Creaks from right front. That was all engine braking, no hint of any vibration ever while going downhill or coasting or sustained speed. Back onto the freeway for the last 2 hours. And dang. In the last 60 miles I picked up a new noise, from the rear end. Did I mention the mechanic replaced the rear differential (junkyard part) and rear wheel bearings a while back? One of the four bearings was a ball of orange grease and rust particles, that was a correct diagnosis. By the last few miles today coming home what had been just a 'noise' has become a chatter/clunk rotational noise in the rear end -- unrelated to the shake in first gear that still happens near as I can tell. Something's very broken. I'll go under it with a flashlight once I settle myself down and unpack -- but it's going back to the mechanic Tuesday Am. It might make 10 blocks downhill from here to there, or might not. Scary noise. Brake part loose? (Braking is very noisy in the rear but perfectly even, no jerk or pull or shudder, just sounds like normal drum brakes very magnified.) Axle or differential or wheel bearings? 12 days from now, we take the niece and nephew camping for two weeks. That's the two weeks per year I need a vehicle capable of ten percent grades in 4wd low. And the road's a mess this year, up there. What do you all think of the new Toyota Land Cruiser they just came out with? I may have to buy something. Remember I'm coming up on age 57, and the failed carpal tunnel surgery left me pretty unreliable handling tools without dropping them. So if I buy a vehicle, it's the last one I'll probably ever buy. I'd been hoping the Subaru would fix up well enough to last me, but without a mechanic locally who really knows these cars, it was a fool thing to hope.

It's in the gas pedal or the floor right at the pedal. I asked them to look at the motor and transmission mounts and replace them if there was any doubt; they said they were OK, and I was emphatic about wanting them checked. I don't know what to look for (don't have a lift or garage at home) re engine stabilizer, wouldn't recognize it. I'll try to look. Disappointed to find several of the insulating boots were off of various wires that would've had to be handled reinstalling the engine, just hanging down on the wire instead of covering the connector. And the battery terminal plastic covers, positive was hanging loose, negative was sitting loose on top of the battery. Someone there (Autometrics is the shop) is just not paying attention or doesn't give a damn about the work being finished, that tells me. Bad sign when the little stuff isn't finished right. I guess I'll try driving it -- I'LL BE on the highway for a few hours and if that seems ok, take it up into the forest roads and hope to get back tomorrow or Monday.

This is not the mechanic in Palo Alto who screwed up the prepurchcase inspection so badly. This is not the mechanic in Berkeley that made me yell SOS for many reasons. This is the mechanic in Berkeley that the (distant) engine/transmission rebuilder suggested for some warranty work. They are an independent, longtime local and I see quite a few Subarus and Toyotas in there, few as old as my 1988. He said he noticed the clutch pressure plate was worn while he had the engine and transmission out (also replaced transmission shift bushings that the SOS Subaru place forgot to fix). I wondered, because I thought normally a whole kit of clutch parts get replaced at the same time; he said that's all that was needed. I have a 1988 GL 5-speed 4wd wagon. Vibration is not noticeable coasting or idling. Vibration doesn't show up in the steering wheel (rearview mirror, seats) -- it's specifically in the area of the gas pedal. Vibration is most noticeable (in city driving, all I've done so far) in first gear specifically, accelerating uphill from a stopsign. Less noticeable on the flat, in first gear starting out from a stop. The throttle position sensor has just been replaced, which fixed 'bogging down' at various places; the old one tested bad, the replacement from a junkyard they say tested good. So, yeah, it could be one of the replaced front axles. In full steering wheel lock in a turn, the right one sounds funny, louder now than when they fixed it. Hmmmm. Kind of a groan. I'm about an hour from taking it on the road -- unless anyone wants to warn me about anything really nasty that this could lead to on the highway or on mountain 4wd forest roads, where I need to take it. I'll check back one more time, and if it's not smart to drive it like this, I won't.

EDITED -- partly solved maybe completely solved, see #37. Bad steering knuckle at bottom of right front strut, that the prior places hadn't noticed. Way bad, worn well beyond adjustment. ===== Original post and long chronicle of possible suggestions follows: My mechanic pulled and replaced an engine (a rebuild that had failed under warranty sent back and returned). While doing that, he told me later, he 'found the clutch pressure plate worn and replaced it' -- no charge. It's also had both front axles/joints/CV boots replaced, both were clicking. Since then the car's had a vibration during acceleration -- felt most strongly in the floor at the gas pedal. I've read the prior threads -- lots! -- on vibration/tranny/clutch. Mechanic claims they were aware of the alignment marks and that isn't the problem, has driven it, says there's nothing wrong. Nevertheless it has this shake. I'm wondering: -- could this be they messed up the alignment? -- or could replacing just the pressure plate leave things shaky? -- how bad can it get, can it cause a clutch failure? -- is this why I hear you should replace a whole clutch kit, not just a worn pressure plate? -- will I be back to read answers to this on Sunday night, assuming I really take it to the mountains this weekend as planned in a couple of hours?

Hmmm. My '88 GL started doing this after the rebuilt transmission was put in; the mechanic said he'd replaced the clutch plate for me because it was worn. It could have been the bad Throttle Position Sensor that they did replace, I haven't gotten it back yet. And I'm going to twist his arm to really test drive it this time, including up onto dirt to check the 4wd, because it was popping out of low a year ago when I started trying to get this car safe to take to the mountains. It ain't yet. Just in case, I took a reprint of your quote above in to the mechanic last week. He said, "Oh, yes, we know about that, a lot of shops don't but we do. ..... Can I keep that?" Hmmmm ....