Hank Roberts

So -- Yeah, they should have just kept the rebuilt they got at first and replaced the rear differential to go with it. I know that now, but it's way too late, it's been shipped back to the rebuilder many weeks ago. I'll ask them one more time to look again at the bushings and linkage. They have been doing it each time, and each time told me those are good, not worn. Odds are they were replaced by an earlier owner, they don't look like they're worn or sloppy. But y'all keep saying this is the cause, so I'll ask him again to look again. So is there anything that _can_ be wrong inside a used transmission that makes it pop out of first and third gear? Or was this all a complete waste of time trying to replace it?

I have not asked clearly enough to be understood, yet. I did not have the problem with all four transmissions -- popping out of gear. The problem happened with #1 and #4 but not #2 or #3. So -- I don't see how a problem on the _vehicle_ could be so correlated with the transmission that happens to be in place -- go away for 600 miles and come back -- whether it's bushings or mounts. I'm willing to believe, but how can you make a problem disappear by changing transmissions? Yeah, I'll try to get someone else to look at it. But I don't get the logic here. I had popping out of gear start with my original tranny -- 230,000 miles. I did NOT have that problem with replacement #1, driven 300 miles (it was the wrong model, missing a switch -> ECU problems, removed) I did NOT have that problem with replacement #1, driven 300 miles (it was the wrong model, wrong gearing, removed) The problem of popping out of gear happens again with replacement #4. All have been used Japanese of unknown mileage. #4 is the first exact model number match replacement, and has no electrical or gear ratio problems. Popping out of gear _did_ go_away_ with replacement trannies #1 and #2, and _happens_again_ with replacement #3. Can a bushing or linkage problem go away and come back like this: #1 -- popping out, original tranny, 230K+ miles #2 -- not popping out, used Japanese, electrical switch mismatch #3 -- not popping out, used Japanese, gear ratio problem #4 -- popping out, used Japanese, right model/type -- unknown mileage. I can't do this work myself -- carpal tunnel, failed surgery, can't hold onto tools, and don't have a place to work on cars. Yes, I may just have had the worst luck yet -- someone had to. Why not me? **it happens. At least I can serve others as a horrible example (grin).

Let me try asking the question I'm hoping for help with, one more time. The mechanic says there's no problem with the bushings or linkage. It's the people emailing me who say otherwise. Facts are this: Four different transmissions have been recently in this car: Original, since 230,000+ miles. Started popping out of first gear in April. The car has had regular maintenance, a Used Japanese engine 60k miles ago, no sign of slop in the gearshift lever at any point. Replacement (three Used Japanese Mystery transmissions) put in so far: #1 -- did not pop out of gear even once in 300 miles. Removed -- wrong model (missing switch connection, engine control codes, grinding into 2nd) #2 -- did not pop out of gear even once in 300 miles. Removed -- wrong model (wrong ratio for rear differential, hard shift and tire damage) #3 -- Exact match for original model number on the tag, finally. No problem shifting. But it started popping out of first gear within 15 miles and did so repeatedly the first 30 miles. So -- the mechanic says the bushings and linkage are OK. -- Logically, it makes sense to me that if they were worn, the problem would have persisted, but I was able to drive rough conditions, 4wd, putting upwards of 300 miles on each of two different transmissions WITHOUT either of them ever popping out of gear? If I had a bushing wear or bent linkage problem, could it disappear for 2 transmissions, driven for 600 miles, and reappear when the third "used Japanese" transmission was put in? I figured by now I could be sure that my old original tranny, and the replacement they just put in, both were worn internally? What else do I need to do, to rule out the possibility that it's a bushing or linkage problem, if anything? Look at them? Take pictures? Get them replaced regardless?

This has never happened to me when braking, for whatever that's worth. It has happened (with the original and again this latest transmission) when the car was in 1st gear (2wd or 4wd) and coasting on a downhill, using engine braking. The mechanic said they also got it to pop out of 3rd gear once. The car did get a transplant engine, and as I said has had repeated transmission transplants lately -- so while I'll go look, I am fairly sure (shudder) that the mounts would not have been ignored if worn out. But, again -- is the shifter (bushings) and linkage something that could have caused the problem on the first and last transmissions but not caused any problem on the two in between? Or can I rule out the shifter bushings and linkage since for 600 miles on the second and third transmissions, nothing popped out. NOTE -- I use this on Forest Service roads --ten percent grades in places, where low-low-4wd is _required_ for going up, and engine braking is required for long descents. So the 2 that did NOT pop out of gear got pressed hard in those conditions. And the first and latest that do pop out, do it on city streets as well as in the woods. Help me narrow this down -- the transmission rebuilder who's responded to me is a LONG shipping distance away, and has told me it's possible that the transmission might not need rebuilding, because it could be bushings or linkage -- but I haven't heard back from them in trying to settle the question addressed in this topic yet. I'm still trying to use logic and deduction and observation here. My mechanic has started to say that the car has been cursed. But I hope thinking this through gets him back to looking at it straight. It's a machine. It's wearing out. It's old. I just need help knowing how the worn parts affect this problem to sort out WHAT is worn out in this case.

Ok, you're as sick of this as I am, but .... I've been advised by a couple of people now in email that "popping out of first gear" could be due to wear on the "shifter bushings" or a "bent linkage" -- and not a transmission problem, after my four attempts at a replacement tranny. But I don't understand -- I thought the the "shifter bushings" and "linkage" stay on the car side and stay in place? Do they get changed each time the mechanic tries another transmission? Original tranny, 230,000 plus miles -- popping out of first and third gear, both 2wd and 4wd, mostly while coasting to a stop, engine braking. First replacement -- did NOT pop out, went 300 miles. Threw engine codes, lacked one wire hookup, taken out. Second replacement -- did NOT pop out of gear, went 300 miles, had the wrong ratio for rear end, wore out tires, hung up in 4wd and lurched badly when finally forced back to 2wd. Taken out. Third replacement -- first replacement, finally, that actually matches the transmission model number on the tag from my original transmission -- same one I got on another USMB thread. Does not throw any codes and shifts smoothly. DOES pop out of first gear, after the first 30 miles of driving, in 2wd, while decelerating. Same as my first tranny (which I still have, in the back of the Subaru -- thinking I may yet send it to CCCR for rebuild!) All the replacements so far are "Used Japanese" -- and I figured the current one is finally the exact right part number, but is worn out like my own was. ---> Is there any way that worn shifter bushings would a) not have been caught by the mechanic, if he's been awake? not have been fixed if they were a problem, and, c) NOT cause problems on two transmissions then cause trouble again on the third one? I am in over my head here. I thought I"d eliminated this as a possible cause and am still confused. If it weren't for the carpal tunnel, I'd go back to bicycling, but that beats my wrists up. Maybe a unicycle .... or a recumbent. Or just a deck chair.

I don't see how either, but I saw it happen on one of the four recent attempts to replace my transmission -- one of the four they tried had one fewer wire connection than my car has wires -- so maybe just a bad connection on an existing wire could do the same thing. -- it threw all kinds of engine codes; the other three transmissions didn't blinkenlight even once. No explanation how. But it can happen.

So, I dunno -- either gas tank water remover (alcohol), or a fuel injector cleaning cycle (however one does that) or both? I assume water's coming through it might carry gummy stuff past the filter that would mess up the injector for a while, but maybe evaporates or dries overnight? Remember -- I have NO idea what I'm talking about. I've owned my 1988 Subaru for gong on 4 months now and never owned any vehicle so complicated before in my life. It's all gizmos and gadgets ....

Any chance you have moisture in the fuel tank that gets stirred up by moving around? It gets in whenever you have a partially full tank, and the night air cools and contracts and sucks moist air in and it condenses and sinks to the bottom. Then gets stirred up a bit when the car's moving.

Do a quick search for EGR and engine light threads since April, I'm in a few. It took two different garages to finish finding the problems causing my EGR code -- the actual paths in the engine that carry the exhaust gas out from the combustion exhaust side, to the EGR valve, and back to the combustion intake side were packed solid with carbon. Someone had crimped the hose shut way back when. My experience says these older cars are developing new and different ways to fail, and that mechanics who rely on their vast store of experience and knowledge (instead of looking with both eyes and brain) miss the new failure modes because they don't believe something new can be going wrong with the cars they know so perfectly. Just like old men who don't believe new things could be going wrong with our bodies after all these years, I guess.

Google is my friend. I don't know if this is a real clue. But I told the mechanic about it and he said -- if by some chance this is the problem with my car, and it could be, since the brakes were done by the previous owner -- they shouldn't have missed something like this. But, he thanked me and the Internet for the idea and they'll look tomorrow. As well as looking for an internal leak in the power assist. By the way, the brake pedal has a new sort of chirp as it goes down. He did suggest it's possible there is a curse on the Subaru, also. But he also agreed that the older vehicles are -- like us older guys -- going to be inventing new failure modes not seen earlier in life. So, I am going to give them another shot at it. -----> The possible clue, as found searching the Web <----- http://forums.corner-carvers.com/archive/index.php/t-4097.html QUOTE: "... The pedal is firm until I start the car and then the pedal will go soft and almost to the floor. .... ------------ " I had similar problems in my Subaru. Primary cause was ... I installed my calipers upside down (put 'em on the wrong side) and there was a pocket of air above the bleeder nipple. .... " END QUOTE I don't know whether to hope this is the problem, and has been missed for the past three months, or that it isn't the problem. But, it's a possibility. I'll let you know.

> started the car .... no change in [brake pedal height Well, if you have a car with a vacuum booster working -- that's the specified test. You should notice a slight drop in the brake pedal, per the manuals, for a vacuum assist that's working normally. And there are several other steps for testing that. None of the vacuum booster results allow that the "little decrease" in pedal height then continues slowly down to the floor though. > bet she took them to that shop and ended up with the same results > but actually belived the bull they are telling you... The woman who insisted the brakes are fine, just like in her car, is the office manager/bookkeeper for the mechanic shop. She's the one I picked the car up from Saturday. Berkeley has this problem with self-esteem. Way too much of it around. Yeah, I plan to tell the owner that she's probably at the same risk of brake failure in her Subaru as I am. It's apparently temperature-related -- I had the car out at 7 am this morning in the cold fog and the pedal still sinks when held down, but not as rapidly, and doesn't reach the point of going 'clunk clunk' on the stops at floor level in 30 seconds at a stoplight. Yesterday when it was hitting bottom fast and repeatedly, it was 80 to 90 degrees. It definitely gets worse when the car's heated up and the brakes have been used for normal driving for half an hour or so in hot weather. So -- anyone able to recommend a competent Subaru mechanic in or around Berkeley, California?

The fourth transmission replacement is now in the car. It's the first one that actually matches the part number -- all but the last two letters, which I have read several places don't matter. The local shop (finally) wrote down the number they found on the transmission that was originally in my car (the one that had started popping out of first and third gears) -- TW75F9A2... and found one of those, in Sacramento, and got it in last week. I just drove it 30 miles, from Berkeley through the hills of Tilden Park to Orinda and back. It popped out of first gear, three times, first in Orinda (on a city street, as I let it roll toward a stop sign in first gear using engine braking) and then twice more on the road downhill from the crest at Tilden going back into Berkeley, again while using engine braking. Same symptom. Dang. Supposedly that was the last available used Japanes transmission this side of Sacramento with that part number on it. Anyone got pointers to another? I'm trying to contact CCR again, about rebuilding the original one, which is here in the back of the Subaru. Brakes don't feel fixed either. Discouraging three months of Subaru ownership, I start to wonder how y'all stand this. It gets better? ------ Meanwhile -- when you posted the actual correct Subaru transmission part number, I'd taken it in the next day, and the mechanic told me that day they'd actually found the number on the transmission I originally had come in with (made me wonder if they read here, but apparently it was coincidence). Now that their first replacement found matching that number is also popping out I searched the web, and found a match in only one place --- rsgear.com -- makes bearings, and lists this among a huge list of part numbers. ..... BK406 85-90 TY75F 5spd 4x4 D/R 1800 BK407 85-90 TW75F9 5spd 4x4 D/R 1800 .... The second is the one that matches what was posted earlier. The exact number, on the original transmission for my car: TW75F9A2BV (for the non-turbo 5-speed 4wd dual range). My speculation is the "TY" is for the Turbo, but I'm only guessing that.

So the good news is -- after 3 months, there has been no further problem with the engine check light related to the EGR. Cleaning out the actual clogged ports in the engine (that lead gas from the exhaust side back into the combustion side to reduce level of oxygen in the mix, when the valve opens) solved that problem. Took two mechanics (first in Palo Alto, second in Berkeley) to find and clean both ports! You'd think that when there's an "in" side on a valve it would suggest also looking for an "out" side. But, apparently not at the first mechanic's shop. They'd carefully cleaned out only half of the path the gas travels through and left the other half plugged solid with carbon. That's one thing the second place did correctly. So, something to check if you have that code and swapping parts doesn't help. It can be a physical obstruction.

Still hoping for a response. I have the original transmission, and have no better alternative than to send it there for work, but need to hear back from someone to figure out why there has been so much trouble, well, communicating about transmissions already.

Could the booster diaphragm 'balloon' without actually leaking? So when the engine is running, it makes the total space available for brake fluid larger? Old machinery discovers new and unexpected ways to fail. I know that. Mechanics who are sure they know it all are most likely to be surprised by new failure modes that develop when materials start to degrade -- or new parts are made with new failure modes out of the old spec. In other words , help!

Mine is not losing fluid -- no wet spots according to the mechanic, and no sign of low level in the reservoir. Eye also said his is not losing fluid.

NOTE there are two different people describing the same problem in this thread, me and Eye Wh. NOTE, while it's been three months and three master cylinder replacements and seven or eight bleed and fluid replacements for me, I'm not being charged for these -- the shop in Berkeley charged me once, the first time, for finding the problem -- and is still trying to find the problem. I can't do this myself -- my hands don't work. Carpal tunnel, failed surgery. So I keep trying to figure out what's going on. A few more hours of searching, and I find over and over, for all kinds of cars and years, that "pedal sinking to the floor while at a stopsign" is always described as indicating a master cylinder failure. I can imagine three bad ones in a row. Heck, I've seen so much manufactured junk for sale the last decade that I am never surprised when the first three or four of anything I buy come out of the box as crap. So I guess I just go back to the mechanic on Monday and say try again.

So, did that fix yours?

>gallon of gas and a match Yeah, I listen to Car Talk myself. Well, I just went to pick up the car. Only the front office/bookkeeper was there to give it to me. It's exactly the same. I got flat denial from her, she said her Subaru brakes (an automatic) are exactly the same. It's like this. Engine off, pedal is firm and high. Turn the engine on, the pedal starts to sink, and in about three or four seconds is way down below the gas pedal reaching a firm stop just half an inch or so above the depressed clutch pedal. It comes up when I pump it, and goes down again when I hold it down firmly. When I drive it, it's firm at each stoplight or stopsign, at first. If I'm on a slope, the pedal slowly sinks down over a few seconds. If I lift up my foot and press down again it's still very mushy and low, and pumps up in three or four presses-and-releases. This does not feel right. This does not feel like it did for a few hundred miles, a couple of times, in between the several times this has been bled, and the two times the master cylinder has been replaced now. They told me yesterday (when they called me too late to pick it up while the mechanic was there and said I could get it from the bookkeeper today) that this last round had been a defective master cylinder, the new one they put in last week was bad. Each time this has taken a few days and a few drives. Now -- as long as I am very light on the pedal the car will stop fine, with the pedal fairly high. If I don't PRESS DOWN on the brake pedal, am real light on it, it stays held properly. The pedal only goes down if I stand on it a bit -- as I would on a 4wd road, or sudden stop, or on a steep hill. So -- give me a sanity check. I never owned a Subaru before this one. It's been about 1000 miles in 3 months, been in the shop over and over for this problem, and others. Am I missing something here? As far as I'm aware, once the vehicle is halted by the brakes, there should be nothing left to compress -- the pedal should have maybe a slight bounce to it but not any further motion down to the floor. I am supposed to now take the vehicle out for 500 miles and really test this fourth attempt at replacing the transmission -- which means going up onto the forest service roads. Do I have anything to worry about with this brake pedal behaving as it is? It scares the hell out of me to imagine a bad situation on those roads and these brakes. But the woman today tells me hers are just the same on her GL (automatic). Of course she also says they never hold the brake pedal before starting the engine -- hers is an automatic, but she refused to do that, so didn't feel it suddenly lose pressure and sink as soon as the engine started. Not the little 'step down slightly' of the vacuum assist, but like it starts to leak or get bubbly as soon as the engine turns on. Right now, I believe I have to take it back in Monday. But when I do the work order --filled out by the woman who just tested it, the front office/bookkeeper -- is going to say "customer claims pedal sinks to the floor but I could not make it happen." Each of these go-rounds makes me late to work, too. So it's not going to be fun. Is there any way what I'm describing can be normal on the Subaru?

Hillholder -- now this car also has its fourth and I hope finally correct replacement used transmission, not yet tested by me (the brakes went flat the most recent time when I went to drive it away from the mechanic with the 'new used Japanese' transmission in it). How's the "hill holder" connected up to the transmission and brakes? What could they have forgotten to do, or done wrong? As to leaks -- the mechanic's proclaimed there's no way there could be a leak that didn't make a big puddle. I tend to believe the posting earlier that it's possible an O-ring is leaking inside a dust cap and letting air in, rather than a lot of fluid out, and making a hard to see or hidden wet spot. I'm going to present THAT printout to the mechanic tomorrow and see if he says he knew it all along but was sure it couldn't be happening - his usual answer when I show him suggestions made online here (sigh). And he hasn't yet seen the eye doctor to replace his "dime store reading glasses that he's been blaming for trouble seeing things. I get, kinda, frustrated .... but he promised to have a young coworker with good eyes look for leaks, so, I'm hoping for better news tomorrow. Hill holder? First I"ve heard of that possibly being involved. Say more?

Ever solve this one???? Happening to me, found this thread belatedly after starting a new one, in the Older Generation area (1988)

again .... 1988 GL 4wd SPFI. Brakes have been done, and bled. And went flat, and bled. And went flat, and bled. And they found an internal leak in the master cylinder and replaced it. And they went flat again. And they bled them and found more bubbles but no leak anywhere. And they went flat again. The mechanic is, unfortunately, apparently a theorist. He's done Subarus for so long he knows exactly what could be wrong. And he says he can't see any sign of a leak. So it has to be the new master cylinder they put in is bad. Well, I figure -- these old vehicles may be inventing new ways to go wrong, that the expertise of the mechanic is blinding him to. I asked him to promise swear to God cross your heart hope to die if I catch you lying, to have his youngest assistant with the best eyes look very carefully along all the lines for any sign of a little leak. I can _imagine_ that there's a crack somewhere that is letting a bit of air into the system but not making a big puddle of fluid. Anyone with experience got any other ideas where to look? This has been the car from hell, now -- three months and still in and out of the mechanic's -- first Subaru I've owned.

Hmmm. The mechanic from hell who's been torturing my 1988 GL (hey, I'd only owned it a week, what did I know? not enough ....) diagnosed an oil leak and convinced me to do all the gaskets. It had suddenly gotten very bad after being checked over "for any possible problems" - - lost 2 quarts in a 300 mile trip I make fairly often. 1988 GL, the one that's getting its 4th attempt at a replacement 5-speed dual low range 4wd transmission tested out tomorrow morning. No difference -- still losing oil -- after replacing gaskets down to the head gasket. I asked several times about the rings/pistons and was assured they looked great and could not be a problem, before they put the engine back together. Drove it and it still lost 2 quarts per 300 miles. Still had a puddle of oil on top of the flat cover over the steering gear on the right front side. That mechanic went on vacation and his boss found a cracked valve cover was leaking. Replaced that, now it's losing a quart and a half per 300 miles. That's three hundred, as in three zero zero. Current story is that when they did the head gasket they increased the compression and it must be losing oil through the cylinders. Mechanic claims a compression test would not prove anything about where the oil is going and sort of goes blank when I say "leak down test" -- he's French, originally, and, well, communication is at best marginal by now. So, anyone got ideas on what can be checked? The mechanic has flatly refused to do the ultraviolet additive I am used to using in older cars (alas, the mechanic I trusted for 30 years retired a few years ago, throwing me into this strange new world). So -- is it really true that there are "oil rings" behind the "compression ring" on each piston, and that they can be overwhelmed somehow by the slight increase in compression when a new head gasket is put in? And is it really true there's no way to find out where the oil is going by testing either compression or leak-down, whatever the latter is? Or did they just figure I looked old enough to bamboozle?

Emily, are you still reading here? Are you getting my email? I've been trying, again, to ask questions by email and not getting any response, and I can't tell if I'm getting through to anyone there or not. I've been asking for copies (faxes) of the paperwork so I can show it to the local shop -- right now we have what you remember your mechanic telling you, against what the local mechanic claims he said. They don't match. But as far as I can tell nobody on either side kept an actual paper copy of an order or invoice -- like you'd get from PayPal or Amazon, or any other purchase made at a distance -- that actually says what was ordered and what was shipped. Whatever you wrote down there, please, fax me a copy. I've emailed you my fax number. I really need to figure out where that transaction went so wrong. With only he-said-she-said disagreement, I lose badly here. Please respond.

Well, I'm glad I didn't take it back to abuse it more over the weekend. (Can I be a rock crawler if I never get it out of low-range-first-gear 4wd? Maybe a junior creepie-crawler ...) This weekend I go set up insect traps on the mountain, and mail what I catch to the Santa Barbara Beetle Survey ....