EVOthis Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Before I start I know this question prob. would be better suited for NASIOC or something so I may post there also...That being said, I am installing the AEM meth kit in my 02 WRX and had a question about tuning...I am told by a few tuners I should be safe running the system without a tune for a little while ( I know the performance gains will be substantially reduced). I was thinking the other day, without a tune when the meth sprays would it be rich enough of an AF ratio to wash my cylinder walls? I asked a Subaru tuner about this and he replyed "that I was not adding more fuel to the combustion chamber so no it will not wash my cylinders." I know my wideband will prob. be reading like 8:1 A/F...Any input here guys. I know there are some seriously smart people on here..someone has to have some info... ...New fully built motor in there so I'm taking every precaution possible and asking every question I have before I start to spray...lol...thanks in advance for any input.. * I will be running a 50/50 water/meth/alcohol mixture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Yes, I was smart enough to find the info on Nasioc :-p http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=-1&f=145 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Thanks man I was looking at that thread earlier, however It really didnt give me any acurate answers...:/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Thanks man I was looking at that thread earlier, however It really didnt give me any acurate answers...:/ You can always ask the questions you posted here in that forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMac Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I have been running meth in my baja with an avo500 turbo for some time now but it's only as a precaution so it was tuned with 30/70 meth/water (windshield washer solution) and you don't see a spike in hp on the dyno when it goes active at 12 pounds of boost. I don't think I'd run any more than that and only with the smallest jet supplied with the kit without tuning for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Thanks man thats what I was thinking Or I may even start off with straight distilled water....I called AEM today and they assured me that even if I was untuned It wouldnt wash my cylinders..So thats kind of a relief.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I wouldn't run it untuned. Any gains you would see are lost when it runs pig rich. What's the point in that? With a small jet and 50/50 you won't hurt anything, but won't gain anything, it might even be slower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Thanks for the opinions fellas..Just trying to get a broad spectrum of input from all over the web.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobywagon Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 With only a bit of experience with blown, alcohol-injected big blocks I would offer this.... Alcohol is a solvent for petroleum. Water isn't, but it really doesn't do much good either, unless you're under high boost. Amsoil and Redline both recommend more frequent oil changes when using M85/E85 or higher. This is because the alcohol will eventually cut down the oil in the crankcase. That is to say....they recommend that you change your high-end synthetic motor oil at roughly twice the interval of your dinosaur juice (i.e. 4500-6000 miles) when running high concentrations of ethanol or methanol. Your car is running FAR less methanol than this, so I just don't see it being a problem. Really, I doubt that you're running more than M25 even at full throttle and high boost. If I had to guess, its far less than that. M10 maybe? I just wouldn't worry about it so long as you're running a decent motor oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 thanks for the input man, That gives me peace of mind, It sounds like you know what your talking about, yeah the motor couldnt be running better..fresh fully built EJ257 hybrid with 15,000 miles on it.....Thanks again man.. when you say m25 and m10 and such are you explaining the kinds of meth? I was told to use m1 only fore apparently others have oil in them which would wear out the seals in the pump.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobywagon Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I'm using the alt-fuel terminology. M10 means 10% methanol. M85 means 85% methanol. M100 means 100% methanol. Generally, the balance of the fuel is gasoline. So M10 is 10% methanol, 90% gasoline. In your case, the fuel you're injecting is half water, half methanol (Strictly speaking, still M50). However, by the time it all gets mixed, I suspect that this mixture makes up no more than MAYBE 10% of the total air-fuel charge. So, in theory at least, the engine sees not more than 5% methanol fuel or M5. As I type this, a thought occurs. Methanol is a legal street fuel. Why not add it to the fuel directly and add water injection for high boost? Just asking. Never done this sort of thing on a street vehicle. I'm thinking that if I was going to build an engine to run on alcohol, I'd run a dual fuel system. High-octane premium gas in the large primary tank and nitro-methane in the smaller secondary tank. It'll run REALLY poorly when switching back and forth, but the ECM could be given one fuel/spark/boost map for nitro and one for high-octane gas. Thus...pull up to the track, throw the fuel selector switch, let it idle a minute to get the fuel rail charged with nitro and then go racing. When you're done, throw the switch again, let it idle to charge the fuel rail with gas then go home. Maybe run sistered up fuel lines and return lines all the way up to the fuel rail with appropriate check valves to prevent back flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Ah! that explains things..thank you...I'm just looking for something simple to install at the moment and water/meth injection from AEM seemed to be pretty straight forward..wires, lines, tank, nozzle, controller..I'm pretty mechanically inclined.. that is some serious thinking though I know a few guys who have actually put nitromethane through there alky system and had good results however I wouldnt try that yet..lol... One more question here while I have your brain to pick..lol.. So If I install this thing and decide to run straight distilled water do I even need a tune? I would think not? You mentioned The engine should be fine running 50/50 meth and water until I have time/coin to get a tune? or the knowledge to tune meth inj. myself ( still tweaking around with romraider).. Thanks again for your input man I'm sure you have more experience with this stuff than I... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 It's not going to be that hard to tune for the meth with ROM raider. In the areas of your fuel map where you are spraying the meth, set the afr leaner than what you actually want so the actual afr with meth is what you want. Watch the 02 sensor or wideband if you have one until your actual afr with meth matches your target afr. Then when you have that squared away you can add a bit of timing in the areas of your timing map where the meth is being sprayed. Really the hardest part will be figuring out at what load the meth kicks in. You'll have to do a bit of logging to figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Hey thanks for the tips subaru360.. I will prob start out with just straight water and see what I have in terms of logging parameters...than move onto the 50/50 meth water..I just installed the pump and tank today..trying to make it look perfect lol I'm extremely meticulous..lol..I'm assuming your referring to the primary open loop fueling table? Ive flashed quite a bit with my WRX making small adjustments here and there however Ive never really messed with the timing tables...I will say If Ive learned anything from self tuning is adjust in small increments and log the change....Just throwing this out there..have you ever heard of/seen a meth/alky pump fail and the engine burns a valve or piston or something? I personally have never heard of this happening..just seeing what the likelyhood is? thanks again for the input man... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Right, primary open loop fueling and base timing is where you would make your adjustments. I've seen problems with meth kits, yes. I just did a version 8 sti swap for somebody and his meth kit was acting up afterwards. The pump would come on randomly when it was not supposed to and the connection at the nozzle kept coming off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Right, primary open loop fueling and base timing is where you would make your adjustments. I've seen problems with meth kits, yes. I just did a version 8 sti swap for somebody and his meth kit was acting up afterwards. The pump would come on randomly when it was not supposed to and the connection at the nozzle kept coming off. Thats what I was thinking..thanks man.. We shall see how the rest of the install goes.....Appreciate your insight as always.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobywagon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 So If I install this thing and decide to run straight distilled water do I even need a tune? I would think not? I'm a little fuzzy on the goal here. My understanding is that water injection is used on street driven vehicles so that they can have REALLY high boost under racing conditions but still be drivable. I think the idea is that the water does two things. First, its not compressible so it sort of artificially increases your compression ratio. The other thing it seems to do is slow down the flame front in the cylinder so as to provide a more complete burn of the available fuel, thus creating more power. Do I have that right? That seems useful to me only under REALLY high boost conditions. That implies an entirely not stock engine to me. If that's the case, then why not simply run a better fuel? Why play around with mixing pump gas and methanol and water? Why not a custom blended fuel of high-octane pump gas and methanol all the time? Or, if you're already going to the time, trouble and expense of a heavily worked over engine (and I assume everything else in the car), why not let it run pump gas on the street and nitro at the track? I'm not knocking your choices. I'm just a bit confuzzled with regards to the application. The high-powered engines I get to play with don't use water injection. But they only run a few minutes at a time. I just want to be sure I understand the intended application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Yes, the goal is get a little higher power, Personally I would kind of feel uncomfortable mixing nitro methane/gas fore Ive heard if you run alcohol or anything other than fuel through your fuel system it will slowly deteriorate all your rubber in the fuel lines/system... Yes, the engine is fully built though however I'm kind of reaching my threshold of the STI block ( at least where I would like to push it to ) fore I didn't have it sleeved. I figured I could grab another few PSI with the water/meth injection. I'm at 27 PSI now. I appreciate your help here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobywagon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Again...just to make sure we're clear...Nitro and Methanol are two COMPLETELY different things. And, yes, if you run Nitro, you'll DEFINITELY want to change things like rubber fuel lines and fuel line o-rings. You'd also want to go to stainless hard lines. These things are also advisable, though not strictly REQUIRED, for Methanol. Remember that many manufacturer's (including Subaru, I think) offer vehicles designed to run on Methanol/Ethanol-based fuels. Generally, the only difference between a "flex-fuel" vehicle and an otherwise equivalent NON "flex-fuel" vehicle is the type of rubber they use in the flex lines and the fact that most of those engines get stainless valves of some variety. But that only becomes a concern for high concentrations of Methanol/Ethanol (M/E85 or higher). Most of the gas you buy at the pump these days is actually E10. So you could cut pump gas with a LOT of alcohol before you start having problems with fuel lines and o-rings. My assumption here is that your're want to run Methanol rather than Nitro-Methane. That would definitely be the sane thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOthis Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 +1 ^ I dont think Im going to go the nitro methane route..First im going to do a pull with straight water and log it and see how the car reacts...than well see with the meth... Thanks again for all the advice and knowledge.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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