zanedp Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Recently I tore my wife's '94 Legacy apart to change the head gaskets, valve cover gaskets, (gaskets, more gaskets, and even more gaskets), altenator belt, and timing belt. Well, after getting the heads off we discovered one of them had a burnt valve. So I of course had to special order the valve which took a week and a half to get it and during that time it started raining. Now, the car and all its parts was in the car port and not actually getting rained on. Well, reassembly went really smooth up until the final moment. Turned the key and it wouldn't start. I of course immediately started hunting for a wire or hose that I might have forgot to connect, but I couldn't find anything. The car just turns over without starting. From time to time it acts like it is going to fire up but immediately goes back to turning over. Well, I checked the resistance for the coil and the primary resistance is at 1.4 ohms but my repair manual reads that primary resistance should be between .63 and .77 ohms. The secondary resistance looks fine as does the resistance for each sparkplug cable. Could it be that the primary resistance being wrong is my culprit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 the most common error is using the wrong timing marks on the cam and crank pulleys. do not use arrows , hash marks only. review the articles in the link below. TIMING BELT ARTICLES HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanedp Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Yes, I understand timing is a common mistake. I've gone back and checked my timing belt several times, but everything appears to be good with it. Appears... But what I'm wanting to know is if the primary resistance on the ignition coil being at 1.4 ohms when it should be between .63 and .77 ohms can cause a car to not start. I know very little about resistance and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcniest5 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 If my memory serves me correctly (which may not), I believe you have to turn the engine twice to get to the correct one. I think you may just be on the first turn, so turn the engine one more time, the timing mark should come back to the same spot, which should be the correct one. But like said, my memory may be completely off, but it's worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Yes, I understand timing is a common mistake. I've gone back and checked my timing belt several times, but everything appears to be good with it. Appears... Be certain that you are using the correct marks on the sprockets -- it's the ''lines'' or ''hash marks'', not the arrows. Using the wrong marks is a very common mistake. Here are links to the EndWrench 2.2L articles: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2SingleOverWin01.pdf http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2Liter.pdf http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/TBeltEWWin05.pdf But what I'm wanting to know is if the primary resistance on the ignition coil being at 1.4 ohms when it should be between .63 and .77 ohms can cause a car to not start. I know very little about resistance and such. The coil is actually a coil ''pack'', with two primaries and two secondaries. If the manual indicates 0.7 ohms (plus/minus 10%), that's for one coil primary. It's possible you are measuring across the two primaries, and 1.4 ohms would be the expected reading in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanedp Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Well, I am lined up on hash marks, or lines, or dashes, or what have you. I don't even see any arrows (except the arrows on the timing belt itself that point in the direction it is supposed to turn). So maybe I'm a lucky one that doesn't have arrows or they have worn off. Then again maybe I'm extremely unlucky and the arrows have worn to look like hash marks and the actual hash marks have completely dissappeared. But I am lined up on the only hash marks I can see. Now, needing to give it another full turn... That very well could be it. I'll give that one a try. I understand the coil is actually a "pack" with two primaries and two secondaries. What you're saying is making a little sense considering both primaries are reading at 1.4. The two primaries use three contacts. To get the first primary I have to connect the ohm meter to the middle contact and to one end. To get the second contact I have to again connect to the middle contact but switch to the other end contact. Since the middle contact is shared between the two is that causing me to measure across the two primaries as you said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 You are testing correctly and I doubt that is the problem. Surely it is something you have done... it always is! Are you sure your fuel pipes are the right way around? Do you have fuel pressure? Do you have spark at the plugs? Are the plugs getting wet with fuel? Do you have compression? Check, check and recheck all your assembly work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcniest5 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Remember that the left and right timing marks (located on the left and right camshafts) have to line up with the notches and the main one (located on the crankshaft) with the one directly above it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 See page 5 of http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/TBeltEWWin05.pdf . The relatively prominent ''Piston position mark'' is the ''arrow'' (don't use). The less-obvious ''Alignment mark'' is the correct one for timing belt installation. I understand the coil is actually a ''pack'' with two primaries and two secondaries. What you're saying is making a little sense considering both primaries are reading at 1.4. The two primaries use three contacts. To get the first primary I have to connect the ohm meter to the middle contact and to one end. To get the second contact I have to again connect to the middle contact but switch to the other end contact. Since the middle contact is shared between the two is that causing me to measure across the two primaries as you said? The way you're measuring it is correct, and you should read about 0.7 ohms. I wonder if the meter isn't ''zeroed'' -- what's the reading if you just touch the two meter probes to each other? By the way, it's unlikely the coil pack has suddenly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 I think I would expect a bad coil pack to read infinite resistance. Double check all the connections. Make sure all of the fuses are in tact. I've had them blow before when reconnecting the battery. Could have just been the car though. Make sure you're getting fuel and spark. Another thing to remember, you did have the heads off, it could be that the cam timing is 180° off on one or both sides. Remove the rocker covers and verify that the proper valves are opening and closing in the order they're supposed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 If the timing belt installation is correct, verify that the cam sprockets aren't reversed in position. The left (driver's) one should have reluctors on the back for the cam position sensor. Also, a bad connection at the cam sensor and especially the crank sensor should be checked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanedp Posted September 26, 2009 Author Share Posted September 26, 2009 Yes, I am getting spark, fuel pressure, and the rest of things that had been listed. I've done test after test on this thing. My ohm meter was not propperly zeroed, as suspected. I should have thought of checking that. Frustration gets the best of us sometimes though. Touching the ohm meter's rods together gives me a reading of .6 ohms, which explains why it appeared the primary resistance was higher than the book suggested. Thankfully I can now completely rule that out as a problem. I didn't suspect the coil pack of just going bad all on its own. My worry was that with all the rain there was too much moisture in the air and moisture got inside and caused some corrosion, thus bringing the resistance up and not allowing it to give enough spark. My worry was uncalled for. As for all the timing suggestions... well, after my wife gets home later today and can watch our son I'll get out there and try everything that was suggested. Thank you all for the help, and once I get finished with the car this evening I'll post again to let you know if it worked or not. Hopefully it will. I want my truck back from my wife.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanedp Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 I know a lot of time has gone by since my last update, but I was out of town for a while due to my grandmother passing. That took more importance than the car.... Now I even have a computer down. Why do all the bad things happen at the same time? Ok, so we made another attempt at the timing belt following suggestions that we had received here, but received no change in the way the car acts while trying to crank it. So, My dad, who is helping me with it, decided to yank the drivers side head off again. (I have no clue why.). When he did this he ruined the gasket so since there is no auto store in the area that will carry the gasket I had to special order it.... again... So we got the new gasket put on, the head put back on, timing belt, and so on. But this time we didn't connect the exhaust to the heads. For the hell of it I put two brand new spark plugs in on the drivers side. When we tried to crank it we could hear the drivers side trying to fire with the new sparkies, but nothing from the passenger side. So, I ran to the store and bought four new plugs. I installed them all and they were all firing great, but the car wouldn't start. It acts like it wants to start, but then stops and pops back through the intake. That sounds like a timing issue to me, so I double checked my timing and all my marks are right on. I have only one mark on each pully... No arrows or anything like that that has been mentioned. I got a flash light and magnifying glass and carefully inspected each pully trying to find maybe worn marks that are barely visible but I still could only find the ones I used... We even, while we had the drivers side head off, checked the cylinder itself to make sure it was in top dead center..... and it was. Appeared to be anyway. The only thing I'm left with is the temptation to pull it out into the field and use it for some fun and stress relieving target practice. If anyone has any better ideas please feel free to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 [...] We even, while we had the drivers side head off, checked the cylinder itself to make sure it was in top dead center..... and it was. [...] Your description still reads like you're using the wrong marks. Before you give up in frustration, please describe exactly where the marks are that you're using on the crank and cam sprockets. Better yet, if you can take pictures and post them, that would allow us to see what might be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 nice catch ob99. he's right, when the crank is in the correct position for the timing belt, none of the pistons are at the top. the crank timing mark is designed to have all pistons at the halfway? point. that way if the cam slips, the valves will not collide with the piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 [...] the crank timing mark is designed to have all pistons at the halfway? point. [...] Yes, the pistons should be halfway between TDC and BDC. The crank is at 90 degrees off TDC, and the cams (which of course revolve at 1/2 the speed of the crank) are therefore 45 degrees off TDC. Valves not colliding with pistons is certainly important if dealing with one of the interference engines. The procedure that Subaru uses for timing belt installation on the SOHCs ensures that cam lobes are positioned so that the cams aren't prone to rotate due to valve spring tension, helpful even on non-interference models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanedp Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 Well, the car finally started. Problem.... Well, we were going for "top dead center" as the manual instructed and, as everyone already knows, Subaru Legacy's do not go on actual top dead center. See, we are both used to have to line up TDC for timing and for some strange reason Subaru has a mark on the sprocket for TDC. I guess its a mark anyway. Its so faded I reckon it could be a scratch, but it looks more like a mark. Anyway, I figured it out while looking at pictures. I noticed in the picture in my manual the keyed notch thing that makes it so you can only put the crank sprocket/pully on one way was facing straight down, however on my wife's car when lined up for TDC it faced straight to the drivers side. A quarter turn difference. So, I asked my Dad about it first and he said "No. You always set timing by setting TDC which is Piston One all the way out." I said leave it to me to end up with a car that is different than what we are used to (GM and Ford) and gave it a try anyway. She started beautifully too. Oh, and there is nothing marking the propper position for the crank on this car other than that keyed notch thing pointing straight down. So, lesson number one. Don't just read the words. Look at the pictures too. They can help. And next time someone has trouble lets just tell them to make sure the keyed notch thing is pointed straight down. I am a bit disappointed, though. I wanted to get some target practice in. Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Oh, and there is nothing marking the propper position for the crank on this car other than that keyed notch thing pointing straight down. So, lesson number one. Don't just read the words. Look at the pictures too. They can help. And next time someone has trouble lets just tell them to make sure the keyed notch thing is pointed straight down. there is a mark, it is not on the face of the crank sprocket, it is on one of the "TABS" on the back of the crank sprocket. this is also in one of the pictures. not a bad idea telling newbies that the keyway goes down, but with the alignment marks on the the cam and crank sprockets and the marks on the engine housing and with multiple people telling them the timing is off and to read the articles on how to do the timing belt and with pictures included....... anyway, glad you got it running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySchmitty Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Glad you got her going. Had a similar problem with a Plymouth Duster 3.0 V6. Timing belt snapped, non-interference so I didn't have busted valves. Set the timing, no starty. Went back and looked... What appeared to be a timing mark was just a scratch. It had this weird indent on one of the teeth that you could only really see if you used a flashlight. Changed the timing and it fired right up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanedp Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 there is a mark, it is not on the face of the crank sprocket, it is on one of the "TABS" on the back of the crank sprocket. this is also in one of the pictures. not a bad idea telling newbies that the keyway goes down, but with the alignment marks on the the cam and crank sprockets and the marks on the engine housing and with multiple people telling them the timing is off and to read the articles on how to do the timing belt and with pictures included....... anyway, glad you got it running. It is "supposed" to have a mark. This car does not have a mark. I'm not saying it was never there. I'm just saying it is not there now. The marks on the cams are barely visible. There are nicks, dings, and scratches more visible than the timing marks are. The car didn't have a gasket on the timing belt cover. It doesn't have the arrows that the articles talked about either... Except for on the crank sprocket. The best I can figure, based on location, the "mark" we lined up to must have once upon a time been an arrow, but faded to just be a hash mark. I say this because one of the articles showed a picture with the crank sprocket having an arrow on it with the arrow pointing to the drivers side. When I turned it for the keyway to face straight down my "hash" mark was straight to the drivers side. I carried my laptop out to the car with me to compare pictures with the car. After careful examination the only thing I could find to indicate timing being off was the location of the keyway. I don't even know what to expect with this car anymore. According to the Haynes manual it should have an EGR valve but it doesn't. Maybe the previous owner did away with it, but I can't find where it would have gone. That is the number one reason I normally don't purchase pre-owned verhicles. Never can tell what the previous owner was like and how they took care of the car. But I can't complain. My wife only spent around $300 on it and it has lasted her for close to four years. Anyway, thank you everyone for the help. I'd buy a couple cases of beer to share with everyone if we wasn't scattered all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanedp Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 Glad you got her going. Had a similar problem with a Plymouth Duster 3.0 V6. Timing belt snapped, non-interference so I didn't have busted valves. Set the timing, no starty. Went back and looked... What appeared to be a timing mark was just a scratch. It had this weird indent on one of the teeth that you could only really see if you used a flashlight. Changed the timing and it fired right up! Scratches suck. My very first timing job was on an old Plymouth Duster. But it was a chain rather than a belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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