what up with these engines?

[logic23]

Has any one else noticed the increasing number of phase 2 engines with thrown rods? I have replaced three 2.5s with bad lower ends and i've seen several craigslist adds for either cars with bad lower ends or people looking for "good lower ends". Is this the curse of the phase 2 engine? Whats going on? Any thoughts?

[idosubaru]

yep, we've been seeing Ej25's with lower end problems for quite some time. not hard to find them with rod knock either, i'm sure Dave will post up, he's got a garage full of them and sold me one (knowingly!)

[bdecriscio]

Add mine to the list, 99 Outback with 103 thousand miles. Very frustrating!

[davebugs]

yep, we've been seeing Ej25's with lower end problems for quite some time. not hard to find them with rod knock either, i'm sure Dave will post up, he's got a garage full of them and sold me one (knowingly!)

 

Hey - you make it sound like I didn't warn you....

 

Anyone coming for a 2000 2.5 SOHC with bad bearings?

 

I have a lady coming for front body parts in the morning.

 

GG is correct. I have about a dozen 2.5's here with bad bearings (to varying degree's) that I use for parts. If it's just HG's I usually fix them. I also have a few 2.2's with HG issues where oil/water mixed or were overheated so I simply replaced them. Also a 97 2.2 that checked out fine in the car but had too much oil sludge for me to put in a car to sell. And a 96 2.2 that I never heard run that I pulled where the car had a fuel delivery problem I got tired of trying to solve that I had a thread about several months ago. Also a good running 95 2.2 in a car on the trailer.

 

But I've done enough of them now and have enough repeat customers that they learned to ask for 2.2's in the Outbacks.

 

Gary - it went pretty smooth this evening - better than expected.

 

Also I may have another shot at a Blue 97 OBW on tuesday - probably needs an engine and I'm full up with cars and getting buried in real work. May you be interested?

[logic23]

OK so what happend to the 300,000 mile 2.2? A thing of the past? So to be safe do we pull the engine at 100,000 miles to do the belt,seals and headgaskets? I have many customers that i've talked into buying subarus because of how little work has to be done on them. Now I feel like i've lead them astray. Are the lower end problems symptoms of headgaskets>>> oil burns up>>>engine locks up or water into oil>>>bearing wash out. I can replace engines all day but I need to stand behind the product.

[davebugs]

Learn to do the bearings. You can buy them all day long with bad bottom ends and HG's. If I had more expertise I'd consider it myself. But it's a hobby for me.

 

From what I've seen the 95-99 2.5 DOHC's are bad with HG's probably leading to the bearings. Piston slap aside (it's just annoying).

 

My only experience with 2000 2.5 SOHC was way bad. Took a few engines to get one with a good bottom end.

 

Heck - you're in Columbus. I do probably have a dozen 2.5 DOHC's that could be split and fixed. If you're up for it, know what you're doing, and reasonable, and I have the time to do the swaps, I can probably give you one a week to do.

 

I've got some here if you'd like to tear them down "for science sake".

 

I'm buried with work but would gladly host a "redoing the bottom end" GTG here - I even have engines for folks that don't. But I don't know of anyone local that has the knowledge. I'd actually love to do it.

 

A local VW tech wants to tear one down. He's thinking of doing his wife's bearings in a 2000 2.5 SOHC while he's doing HG's so he doesn't need to basically ever yank it again. I have a bad 97 2.5 for him to play with - it may actually be beyond repair.

[ericem]

the 2.2 should be fine. I know what you mean though feels like i cant recommend a older subaru unless its 90-94 or 05+.

[Fairtax4me]

And I was considering a 99 GT 2.5 wagon until reading this thread...

[subaru360]

I've done 3 phase 2 2.5 engines with bottom end trouble this year. A knocker, a siezed up one and one with a rod through the block.

[bheinen74]

long live the ej22 please bring it back.................enuf said my point real and valid. i will gladly take a ej22 with 135 reliable hp over anything. It will run a liftetime. Subaru proved it in the land speed endurance record. but they now fail, this is so true. Truth is the ej22 is the best they made truth is the ej25 is among the worst they made. Subaru beter straighten up. They better give us a good engine again.

[logic23]

As far as the 2.2 being fine thats what scares me. I've seen three posted on craiglist that are bad (phase 2).

I've been toying with the idea of doing the lower ends. The only way to keep it reasonable would be production style 5-6 at a time. I've been wrenching professionally for 13 years. I was trained and still work with a 75 year old blind mechanic. We used to do a ton of old air cooled vw stuff including complete engine rebuilds. Those were a huge pain: line boring etc. I think a subaru engine would be way easier. I have two phase 2 2.5 engines neither are rebuildable. One has a burnt piston which took out the cylinder and the other has a rod out the top. Seems like doing the HG at 100,000 miles would be fine for preventative maintenence especially if the updated HGs are a "fix". With the recent findings I dont know if the phase2 2.2 is any better replacement for the phase 2 2.5. Out of the frying fan into the fryer. Sorry to scare anyone but as mechanics we are only seeing the sick ones there are many many more that are well and will continue to run problem free for a long time. Its all about knowing what the potential problems are and trying to prevent them. I am just trying to avoid the worst case of engine blows up in the middle of kansas in the middle of winter. That is the whole reason I quit driving VW's long distances.

[ericem]

I think it is important to do coolant flushes atleast every 2 years, and oil changes at proper intervals. I wonder if people who did coolant flushes ever encountered HG issues?

[davebugs]

2.2's are sturdier and have less annoyances anyways (piston slappers and oil pump screws as well as HG's and Rod Knock come immediately to mind).

 

I still drive a VW TDI everyday(181k uneventful miles) and have 7 air cooled's - in the middle of putting the engine back together for my 71 bus and am now tied up with "real" work.

 

Been years since I totally redid a VW air cooled. This one I left the case, jugs, and heads together. It was just such a pain to pull. I was originally just gonna replace the fuel tank, leaking rear main, and clutch kit. It was such a PITA to get out of the bus that I figured I'd reseal it, clean it up after years and years of a rear main leak. The fan and shroud had about 1/4" of oil residue/dirt on them.

 

Then I have several others that need minor maintenance.

 

I also have sold 3 VW MARKIII's in the last month and have a 98 Golf 5 speed for sale now and perhaps a 97 GTI 5 speed(haven't decided to fix or part it). The 2.0's are bullet proof(I can get one delivered for 85.00 with a warranty), the auto tranny's and 5 speed's reverse not so much. Nothing rides or handles like a VW in my opinion. A much heavier car than even the luxury Jap cars in my mind including Acura, Infinity, Lexus - that's why I drive one. 40mpg in an automatic and expected life of 500k doesn't hurt either. I always get 200k out of Chevy's. Haven't had a Toyota or Honda in a while - but of the 2 I prefer Honda's. Just a crappy ride and handling.

 

If you'd like some other engines to do and have an idea of the cost let me know. I'm in no hurry. After I pick them clean of most parts/sensors I scrap them. I should probably be thinning the heard anyways. ABout the time of the year to try and stuff too much stuff into the garage for the winter. Last year I had to let a wrecked 73 bug set outside that had been inside for probably 12 years. But it may be worth the trip to bring a few engines over if price and workmanship is good to see if this makes sense.

[idosubaru]

not too long ago folks on Subaru boards were suggesting all the time that EJ25's don't have issues or that they were "normal" or minor. where are they now? was kind of following those comments with a craiglist link showing 5 bad ones for sale in one week, :-\.

 

anyway, they aren't all bad, it's not like everyone has problems. Dave and I are in Subaru rich areas, so there's plenty around that don't have problems. but it's not one of Subaru's shining stars.

 

EJ vehicles really are less reliable in some ways than older ones. wheel bearings, struts, head gaskets, lower end bearings, piston slap, and even torque bind are far more prevalent than older models. kind of sad to go backwards.

 

dave - i gave him your phone number (sorry i didn't ask first?) but have not heard back from him.

glad your meeting went okay, wow!

Edited September 26, 2009 by grossgary

[rweddy]

It is a sad state for subaru. I have owned 11 roos, model years from 1976-1996 and have thought about upgrading from time to time but after the airbags blew on my 96 from a slight 2 mph hit I went back to older models.

The best thing about roos have been their dead reliability that they don't seem to have anymore. I have taken many over the 200k mark but don't think I would touch any think after 1995 except maybe the H6??

 

I used to rave to everyone about how great roos were but then my dad's 02 and my brother-in-laws 03 were total pos. Both had external HG leaks, one at 42k, steering rack issues, wheel bearings, brake issues, etc.

 

I am missing something here, where has subaru gone wrong??

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

Here’s my take on it, just some thoughts. It’s a defect by design on Subaru’s part. Just like the situation with the Justy oil pump. This definition describes what I mean.

 

"Definition 1. General: Frailty or shortcoming that prevents an item from being complete, desirable, effective, safe, or of merit, or makes it to malfunction or fail in its purpose."

 

Years ago I found out the EJ has open decks. At the time I was sure, this can’t be good. It’s aluminum and there’s a saying about used aluminum engine parts. “If it’s aluminum, it ain’t straight”. I even thought maybe It was the influence of General Motors, cheapening the product to save production costs and all. A move toward the disposable car.

 

Long story short. I bought a Justy many years ago. Had low miles, around 60K. I drove it another 70K before I even knew they were problematic. I had 130K+ plus when the oil light started flashing, especially after a hard run, at idle. I’ve read where Justy’s only lasted 70K miles or so. I attribute the miles I got out of mine to keeping the oil clean, something I’m compelled to do anyway.

 

What I’m saying has been said here. Any of these cars with the proper maintence probably fare much better than the others. Oil, antifreeze, no overheating. The word that comes to mind, they’re delicate... handle with care. And when one blows, it’s more than “just gaskets”.

 

Now I know these cars are very useful transportation to folks in many parts of the world. The AWD alone is a good reason to own one.

But I really don’t want one. Interference engine, no 4WD, no HiLo range, no thanks. I just don’t “need” one that bad with all the baggage they bring with them. Just not worth it to me. Well, unless they were real inexpensive.

 

Doug

[nipper]

My 2 cents. Subaru itself admitted that the 2.5 (when it first came out) was pushed to the design limits. Since then they have beefed them up. I have found that a 2.5 that suffered from over heating and had not had the oil changed when the condition was corrected was asking for trouble.

 

Personally I think the 7500 mile oil change interval is just too long and needs to be reduced to 5000 miles if you want to give the car to your children someday. Very few people change thier oil early, and most change it later then they should.

 

Also any engine which has a reduced oil capacity (less then 5 qts) really should have more frequent oil changes. The more power increases on a small engine, the harder it has to work, the more frequesnt the oil changes should be.

 

And yes i had one throw a rod on me too, rather spectacularly. Mine was due to the owner chaining the oil once a year "whether the car nedded it or not".

 

nipper

[logic23]

Yeah it seems like the 95-98 2.2 is still the most reliable in my experiences. The 2.5 DOHC not so much. Now it seems like the "redesigned" phase 2 engines (both 2.2 and 2.5) suffer from the same HG problems. Seems like the best thing to do is to get early 95-98 2.2 and figure out how to get them to work in the phase 2 cars>>>adapter plate so that the later intake will fit it... I don't know.

My last watercooled VW was a 94 golf.... vw started using lots of cheap plastic parts, plastic water pump impellers. They are fun to drive but I'm to paranoid of having to fix them. You need too many special tools to work on them: super torex special holders to do timing belts. I have a buddy who used to work at the dealer I send my watercooled VW stuff to him.

I have a 57 bus 60,000 miles unrestored original paint, 71 bug that is in process (slow process) of restoration, 79 convert fuel injected 74,000 miles and a 79 bus daily driver with a 78 912 s engine in it.

Rebuilding some subaru engines might be a good winter project. I'll keep it in mind. Right now too busy swaping engines and getting some legacy wagons ready for some friends.

[davebugs]

01 TDI Golf daily driver 181k.

 

62 sedan (VA car - low miles - been apart and primed for 15 years?), 62 single cab 24k?, 71 deluxe bus pushing 100k?, 79 triple white convertible - pushing 100k, 69 bug 22k?, street legal Blue metallic dune buggy, wrecked 73 bug. I think I'm forgetting one. May be getting a 74 Thing(local) and 64 bus(from Maryland). They even have their own "house".

 

I've been working on too many Suby's to play with them for a few years. But I just started working on the bus recently. Now I can't get any Suby's into the garage!

[logic23]

I'm in the same boat...too many paying jobs to justify taking up the space for restorations etc. Luckily they all run and drive but the 71 bug. Have you messed with the subaru engine in an aircooled vw? Thinking of doing it with my 79 bus. I really want to take it on some trips but I really dont trust VW engines anymore too many breakdowns or near breakdowns.

[davebugs]

A suby tech that I know thinks I shoudl throw one of the good 2.2's I have setting around into the buggy. It needs rebuilt/engine swap. 40 PSI in all cylinders and blows oil out of the engine due to the pressure. Like now a quart of striaght 30 weight every 30 miles?

 

I figure Kennedy makes an adapter.

 

But it's the plumbing and radiator that I really don't want to mess with.

 

It's a pristine Blue Metallic (molded into the Gelcoat) so I certainly don't wanna mess with the body. The wrecked '73 I'm expecting to be the motor donor for the buggy. I also have 2 NEW longblocks that I've had since they announced closing the factory in Mexico probably better than 10 years ago.

 

With a decent VW 1,600 it's got plenty of power. Perhaps if I find easy swap instructions I'd reconsider it. But in order to move onto the next project I'll probably jsut swap VW engines. I'll crack this one open first to see if jsut jugs/rings may be all it needs.

 

I assume you saw the thread here where someone is putting an old style Suby engine into a 59 bug. Looks like a lot of work but he's basically done with the mechanicals. And it's looking good.

[nipper]

A suby tech that I know thinks I shoudl throw one of the good 2.2's I have setting around into the buggy. It needs rebuilt/engine swap. 40 PSI in all cylinders and blows oil out of the engine due to the pressure. Like now a quart of striaght 30 weight every 30 miles?

 

I figure Kennedy makes an adapter.

 

But it's the plumbing and radiator that I really don't want to mess with.

 

It's a pristine Blue Metallic (molded into the Gelcoat) so I certainly don't wanna mess with the body. The wrecked '73 I'm expecting to be the motor donor for the buggy. I also have 2 NEW longblocks that I've had since they announced closing the factory in Mexico probably better than 10 years ago.

 

With a decent VW 1,600 it's got plenty of power. Perhaps if I find easy swap instructions I'd reconsider it. But in order to move onto the next project I'll probably jsut swap VW engines. I'll crack this one open first to see if jsut jugs/rings may be all it needs.

 

I assume you saw the thread here where someone is putting an old style Suby engine into a 59 bug. Looks like a lot of work but he's basically done with the mechanicals. And it's looking good.

 

 

There is an entire yahoo list dedicated to this conversion and they have (no pun meant) all the bugs out of it. Plumbing is nothing compared to the wiring.

 

nipper

[davebugs]

There is an entire yahoo list dedicated to this conversion and they have (no pun meant) all the bugs out of it. Plumbing is nothing compared to the wiring.

 

nipper

 

 

I'm a bit ashamed to say that I don't know what a Yahoo list is.

 

Last time I really played with the VW's was probably more than 10 years ago and the 'net has come a long way since then. Only site I even really know of is thesamba and I'd say it's onle fair. Haven't relly spent much time looking though.

 

If you have any links I'd appreciate them. Looking like the buggy may wait until next year. Perhaps I can start with a 97 2.2 that I have setting here and get to work on it, the wireing(I HATE wireing), etc. I don't currently have an ECU but I have a running 95 to part on the trailer.

[nipper]

I'm a bit ashamed to say that I don't know what a Yahoo list is.

 

Last time I really played with the VW's was probably more than 10 years ago and the 'net has come a long way since then. Only site I even really know of is thesamba and I'd say it's onle fair. Haven't relly spent much time looking though.

 

If you have any links I'd appreciate them. Looking like the buggy may wait until next year. Perhaps I can start with a 97 2.2 that I have setting here and get to work on it, the wireing(I HATE wireing), etc. I don't currently have an ECU but I have a running 95 to part on the trailer.

 

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/subaruvanagon/

 

thats one of them, there is another in there too someplace.

 

They have tons of info in the files section.

[edrach]

Has any one else noticed the increasing number of phase 2 engines with thrown rods? I have replaced three 2.5s with bad lower ends and i've seen several craigslist adds for either cars with bad lower ends or people looking for "good lower ends". Is this the curse of the phase 2 engine? Whats going on? Any thoughts?

Hopefully this wasn't mentioned earlier, but I'm late to this party and I'm too lazy to read all the posts.

 

I think it has something to do with faulty design of the oil pan; under hard cornering (and who doesn't "play" that way on a winding road), the oil shifts away from the oil pickup and the engine can run dry for a couple of revolutions. Over the long haul that can certainly have something to do with this issue.

 

I do know that Subaru has added extra baffles (or changed the design) in the later oil pans to prevent this type of failure.