Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) Picked up a 1996 Impreza Outback Sportwagn (OBS) 2.2L with just under 90k on the clock (automatic). Got it for cheap, knowing it was having some binding issues. From what I had read on here it sounds easy enough to diagnose and I banked on it hopefully not killing the bank account. Car has the flashing AT OIL light ... so here goes ... Last night I went ahead and did the pin#5 jumper on the connector under the dash to check the codes. AT OIL light flashed two fast, four slow, for a code of 24 then. According to my searching and the PDFs I downloaded this appears to be the duty C solenoid. Right? Here goes my questions.... #1 - Based on this code, and the binding/pushing feeling on tight turns, would those knowledgeable agree replacing the duty C is the right way to go? (sounds like it is $90 in parts) #2 - I'm not super great at wrenching, and may pay a mechanic to do the work. How many hours should it take, or better yet, what is a typical dealer (and non-dealer) cost for this repair? #3 - Is there any other testing or research I can do to better make sure it is just the duty C that is the issue? Or until the trans is open and inspected for grooves, is there nothing else really to do? #4 - Most important is ... since I dunno how long it was driven like this I plan to keep mileage off. But I need to drive to work/back 5-days a week. My drive to work is <40mph, and about 10-miles each way. If I don't get this fixed for a week or two and put those miles on the car, do I need to worry? Any other thoughts on the matter are appreciated. Beyond this issue the car is solid as best I can tell from my "intermediate" mechanical over-view of the car. Thanks in advance for any replies or help ... Edited September 27, 2009 by Shaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 make sure all the tires match in tire size and tread depth/wear. and change/flush the fluid. no point in repairing it only to have those things screw it up again. put the FWD fuse in place and drive it like that as long as you like. if it doesn't go away with the FWD fuse then indeed your Duty C is bad. you can remove the rear half of the driveshaft (only 8 12mm bolts) and essentially drive it as a FWD vehicle as long as you like. Impreza wagons are called OBS (Outback Sports), not OBW just so you don't get confused with Legacy stuff (which are OBW's) later. good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 grossgary -- thanks yeah I had read-up on the tires, but I don't have any "metal bands" as suggested on some write-ups I saw to measure. Best I was able to do was check the tires which are all the same OE correct size, and appear approximately the same wear. No digital measurements or anything, tho. Fixed/edited thread to make it OBS -- thanks for the clarification. One more question -- this whole FWD-fuse bit. What is that all about? I'm assuming there is a fuse you install or swap somewhere that fools the AWD computer to only use the front drive of the car? Since this car is 13-yrs old I didn't get any sort of owners manual, and searching yielded me no "good" fool proof data to explain how/where to do this fuse-swap. Can you point me in the right direction? Sounds like that would be a good way to test for the duty c, right? Swap fuse -- if results are unchanged (binding still present) then duty C is indeed most likely culprit eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 pop hood - passengers side strut tower is a small box receptical that accepts a standard automotive fuse. place one in there. if torque bind doesn't go away - you have a bad Duty C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 YAY FOUND IT!! Does the fuse size matter (wattage)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 no, it's just a simple circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 no, it's just a simple circuit. I meant amps, not watts. Sorry about that reply above, it is late and I was sleepy. LOL Anyhow ... using a 25amp fuse there was no change. Was there supposed to be a light on the dash? I thought in my searching I saw some people talk about a light on the dash. With the 25a fuse in the holder, I saw no dash lights (after my AT OIL light flashed 16-times the dash was light-free). So how do I know I'm really properly closing the circuit? Any way to check? A short drive (<1 mile) showed no change in the binding behavor. I presume that is all I need to do (I got to 30mph) ... or did I need to drive it more/farther for the "changes" to take place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 Was there supposed to be a light on the dash? I thought in my searching I saw some people talk about a light on the dash. With the 25a fuse in the holder, I saw no dash lights (after my AT OIL light flashed 16-times the dash was light-free). So how do I know I'm really properly closing the circuit? Any way to check? A short drive (<1 mile) showed no change in the binding behavor. I presume that is all I need to do (I got to 30mph) ... or did I need to drive it more/farther for the "changes" to take place? Still looking to know more about the above. Car drove no differently with the 25A fuse which is fine by me (I've got not problem knowing the duty C is indeed the issue). However, as I saw -NO- dashboard "FWD" icon with the fuse in, I'm worried perhaps the fuse-trick wasn't properly working. What I'm basically looking for here is this: with a fuse in the "FWD" holder in a 96 OBS, should some sort of dash board light illuminate saying "FWD" or similar? or is there no way to truly know your fuse-trick is working given my situation? (I realize the fuse trick would work and be noticed when driving if the duty C wasn't messed, but in my scenario it is what I want to use to test, but how do I know the fuse is seated/working properly?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 There should be a FWD light that comes on on the dash. I have a suspicoun that this bulb is missing form the dash to hide the fact the car (at one time) had torque bind. Did the TB go away with the fuse in the holder, as this is important. Cheap way to check the tires. Park the car. With caulk or tape or something mark all tires where they meet the road with a line. With a freind watching, drive the car forward 5 full tire rotations straight. All the marks should end up back at the same place if the tires are the same size. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 nipper -- thanks for the reply. Now I have more data to give you, but also more questions. First my results.... marked the wheels and did 5-rotations as suggested. BOTH of the passenger wheels were the same as one another and BOTH of the drivers wheels were same as each other, but from the left to right side of the car they were different by nearly 1.5 inches more rotation! However, the car was on a crowned road and the driver side was therefor higher up and it was a pretty nice size crown. Could this make a different? Perhaps I'll try it again in my driveway, which is flat enough although up a slight incline. For what it is worth all the tires appear to be about the same wear depth, and all four are the correct OE size and same brand/etc. They are all at 29psi (should I inflate fronts to 32psi per door sticker?) No, the TB does NOT go away with the fuse. However I'm still a little bit skeptical of the fuse working. Where is the dashboard light in the cluster that I should see? And how easy is it to pull the instrument cluster to swap the bulb in question? I'd really love to know for sure that the FWD fuse is working, but since I'm not seeing any dash lights I'm a bit worried!! Thanks again in advance for any replies anyone can offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 QUICK UPDATE -- Tried the "tire marking" trick on my driveway which is flat (left-to-right) although at an incline. And sure enough the results were MUCH better. All four wheels went the exact same distance on the five rotations, so that indicates they are all indeed the same size. Must have been "bad" the first time due to the road being a crown and me being on the far right side of that crown. Sidebar: I've got plans to take the car to a dealer in a week when funds permit to inspect the issue at hand here anyhow -- but the more I can learn before hand the better I'll be able to make sure I do not get my a$$ handed to me! Still wondering why the FWD light doesn't light up... thoughts? location? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Take a flashlight to the dash, up close. You should see a FWD indicator at the base of one of the gauges, where the other idiot lights are. You have it. Does your tranny oil light flash on startup? the fuse just completes a low power circuit to tell the Duty C solenoid to stay open and deactivate the RWD. I have a feeling someone did this trick long ago, and now the clutch pack itself has fused together. This solenoid is not meant to stay energized everytime you run the car. It can last this way a month or ten years, its just the luck of the draw. This is why the bulb is most likely missing. I dont like the tires not matching, but somone had the smarts to replace two tires and split them up one per axle to keep the revolutions per mile the same (as you saw). Tires can vary even within the same batch. I have a feeling someone had a flat and replaced two tires. The only thing worse then a high mileage car is a low mileage one. Cars are made to be driven, and they dont like sitting around. People think they are getting a great deal, but they usually have a lot of maint to catch up on. Normally if you had a good duty C i would say lets try one other thing, change the tranny fluid. Buy a case of fluid and do a drain-refill-drive around block-repeat thing 4 times. A failed Duty C solenoid code is never a flase positive. If the code says it failed, it failed. Unknown history i dont know what to tell you. usual solutions are replace the solenoid and cross your fingers, rebuild the AWD unit, or replace the transmission with a known good one. Can you find out how long the tranny has been binding, that would help alot. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 QUICK UPDATE -- Tried the "tire marking" trick on my driveway which is flat (left-to-right) although at an incline. And sure enough the results were MUCH better. All four wheels went the exact same distance on the five rotations, so that indicates they are all indeed the same size. Must have been "bad" the first time due to the road being a crown and me being on the far right side of that crown. Sidebar: I've got plans to take the car to a dealer in a week when funds permit to inspect the issue at hand here anyhow -- but the more I can learn before hand the better I'll be able to make sure I do not get my a$$ handed to me! Still wondering why the FWD light doesn't light up... thoughts? location? you types as i typed Bulb is missing most likely. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 Yeah we just missed each other there, typing at the same time! Anyhow --- yes my AT OIL light flashes the 16-times. And if you refer to my first post, the code I got was a #24 -- indicating the DUTY C was the failure point. So it sounds like that needs replaced as a minimum, eh? What other "suggested repairs" should I expect the dealer to mention? Sounds like my tires are all OK though so that is a relief. Or so it seems. And yeah I actually already tried the flashlight trick but was unable to see where the FWD icon would be -- I assumed it would be along the bottom somewhere. Lastly ... I'm not sure how long the problem was there as I didn't buy it from a private party, and the dealer whom had it really didn't even seem to have known about the binding. Which means one of two things... a)they were giving me a lie just to sell me the car, or it just started happening. I'm in hopes it was the second, but price-wise feel okay if it wasn't. Even if I dump $2k into a trans on this car I'll be "okay" with what I have into the car total cost -- traded in an older Honda that needed more than $2k of work and had almost 2x the miles -- so this is fine by me right now. Just want to be loaded with as much info as possible. I'm expecting the dealer to tell me they need to replace the duty C solenoid (from what I've read on here it is $90 in parts but should be a $250 dealer visit) -- I'm just trying to be preparred for whatever ELSE they may also suggest needs done at the same time, and understand the logic of why it would be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 One other sidebar..... there was no fuse in the FWD holder when I purchased the car. That isn't to say that it was not removed at some point prior .. but you mention that someone may have used that trick prior and removed the dummy light. If that were the case, it seems odd they would have taken the time to remove the fuse at any point. If you're gunna remove the dashboard FWD light, why not just leave the fuse in the holder under the hood? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Option C - they never noticed the torque bind. Well it is an 800.00-900.00 repair or there abouts to rebuild the AWD unit. You may also need a transmission mount (dont be surprised it is possible and reasonable given the cars age) I am assuimng you dont have an owners manual for the car. Look at www.cars101.com to get familiar with the maint for the car. I dont know where the FWD light is on an imp , but its there. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 One other sidebar..... there was no fuse in the FWD holder when I purchased the car. That isn't to say that it was not removed at some point prior .. but you mention that someone may have used that trick prior and removed the dummy light. If that were the case, it seems odd they would have taken the time to remove the fuse at any point. If you're gunna remove the dashboard FWD light, why not just leave the fuse in the holder under the hood? LOL because that is a HUGE red flag that there is something wrong with the car nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 nipper, thanks again for all your help. This car has been pretty easy to diagnose/work on so far but granted I've not gotten into any of the REAL mechanics. Installing my aftermarket radio, and running the DTC for the trans however was pretty basic and easy stuff. As such I pulled the surround off the cluster and the 4 screws that hold the cluster in. But beyond the driver-side connector I was unable to get enough play to take out the cluster and check the bulbs. Figure I'll just say eff it and let it be. At this point I know I've prob got an $800-900 visit regardless at the dealer, and god willing I'll never need the FWD light anyhow. (Although once the car is fixed I do fully intend to test the FWD fuse -- even if the dash light doesn't work then, I'll hope to find it works!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 you should have been able to disconnect all the connectors and yank the gauge cluster There is one small connector in the back for the spedo which you can reach without seeing it, the others are fairly obvious. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 The "biggest" connector (white, prob 20+ pins) on the driver-side end was easy to slide off. But even with that one disconnected, I was only able to just BARELY squeeze my hand behind. For fear that I'd be unable to properly hook things back up I didn't want to go any farther. It is dark and I don't have a super-well-lit garage. All my good work lights are over at my folks place where I usually work on my cars when they need something more major. As such, I just gave up for now. I've got a friend who is a VW mechanic by trade who'll prob be happy to help me try at a later date, because there is no way in hell I'm gunna pay a dealer to check a bulb LOL By accident, I left my parking lights on afterwards. Had to search here as I had recalled seeing "how to" turn them off -- found the rocker on the dash. In the process noticed I had one of my dual filiment tail/brake lights burnt out. Time to go replace that. Auto parts store here I come... hope they are open past 8pm EST! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbusa Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 (edited) I don't think our 96 OBS has a FWD light. Edited October 16, 2009 by Bigbusa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I have the same exact car with the same issue. My dash didn't light up FWD when I put the fuse in either. I don't think our 96 OBS has a FWD light. OBS based on the legacy has the FWD light. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 My 98 OBS does have a FWD light. It is at the bottom left of the cluster. The ABS light is above it and the AT Oil light is to the right of it. Try a different fuse. Three tranny fluid changes fixed my problem but I did not have the code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 My 98 OBS does have a FWD light. It is at the bottom left of the cluster. The ABS light is above it and the AT Oil light is to the right of it. Try a different fuse. Three tranny fluid changes fixed my problem but I did not have the code. Dealer has the car now. They suggested starting with a replacement of the duty-C solenoid and see if that fixed it before we spend the big bucks on the AWD rebuild. So we'll see how that goes. Although my car isn't in front of me, IIRC the AT OIL light is one of four lights that come on when I start the car (ie: the dummy lights that turn on when you fire up the car and then go off). So to the left of the AT OIL light in my 96 is definitely not the FWD light. If anything it would have to be farther right, if it is even there. I'm starting to think there is no FWD light on my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbusa Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) thanks Edited October 16, 2009 by Bigbusa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now