pwarcholik Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I have a 2001 H6 3.0 with a dead bank, 1,3,5 cylinders. They have spark and compression 150 psi, with no change to engine when removing all injector plugs and coil wires. Car was given to me with engine knock due to over filling with oil? Any sugestions? thanks in advance paul w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 sounds like a bad coil to me yet you say there is spark ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share Posted October 18, 2009 each plug has a coil, all had spark out of the clylinders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Welcome to the forum. Have you verified that the injectors are being pulsed? You can check voltages, use ''noid'' lights, etc., listen for a ''click'' with a stethescope or even just use a wooden dowel from injector to ear. Compare voltages/sounds to the working bank. Compression spec for that engine is 185-213 psi. If all the cylinders on the ''dead'' bank are at about 150psi, it's possible there's a valve timing issue. However, if the injectors are opening but none of those cylinders are firing due to (for example) fouled plugs, the fuel could wash the oil from the cylinders enough to reduce compression. If plugs from the ''dead'' bank are wet with fuel, you could try doing a ''wet compression'' test -- if you're not familiar with that, ask for details. To what degree was the oil level too high? Is the knock still there, and if so where does it seem to be coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share Posted October 18, 2009 The previous owner had the car dealer maintained, even oil changes,til 105,000 when he decided to change on his own, with seven quarts of oil, he heard a knock 60 miles later and was told to junk it. I saved the prestine car from certain death. After hearing what happened and hearing what sounds like a upper end tap passenger side and rough idle, with hesitation, and yes the tap is still there. I thought I could fix it. I have checked for voltage at the injectors and its the same as driver side.Where can I get a "noid" light. Im thinking timing issue also, I was told it has a chain and its not likely. Plugs are new, wow, only one plug available at 15.00 a piece. I noticed the coppression was a little low but figured it was due to wear. I thought it would be zero or a lot lower if valves were off time. Is there a way to check valve timing, it mentions valve timing as a possible problem in All Data's troubleshooting section.All Data also stated that valve timing was a moderatley common problem.And is it possible the engine is not trashed if it did go out of time? Would you recomend a leak down test? I did get misfire codes and somethig about bank sensor temp to low, I think thats the o2 sensor. I will get exact codes and numbers today. Thaks again in advance. Paul W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Like OB99W I would want to see if the injectors are working first. Noid lights are available at parts stores. I would also want to know if the compression is the same for all of the cylinders since that is important. Did you check all of them or just the one side? I too think that a valve timing problem is unlikely due to the chain drive but if the other bank of cylinders has higher compression then maybe that really is the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Google ''noid lights'' to find lots of sources for them if you can't locate them locally. However, if the voltages on the injectors are the same on both banks, listen to them via a dowel rod (or screwdriver with a long shaft) as I previously mentioned. If they're operating, you should be able to hear them click. Although it's not common, timing chains can jump -- if by enough, valves will hit (which might be what you're hearing, unfortunately) and bend. By the way, the 3.0 H6 is a DOHC design. Yes, doing a leak-down test is a good idea, since it would allow you to differentiate between a potential timing problem that's minor and one that caused valve damage. Posting the codes would help, although it wouldn't surprise me to see P0301, P0303, P0305 at least. I agree with Cougar that compression readings of the ''good'' side could also be useful information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) I thought about the problem a bit more, and have some further comments. Just for general info: The EZ30 has two timing chains. It also has hydraulic lifters. I've been trying to correlate the overfill with the symptoms. Perhaps the oil got sufficiently aerated to cause problems with valve lifting. For how long has the engine been run since the oil level was returned to normal? EDIT: Ummm, I forgot that we're discussing a 2001. The later design had hydraulics, but I think that the '01 didn't, so the above might not apply. (Anyone else have the correct info handy?) I'm also wondering about chain tensioner problems. Edited October 18, 2009 by OB99W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 18, 2009 Author Share Posted October 18, 2009 First off thanks to all. The infomation is impressive and a fantastic resource. I beleive they are soild lifters, that was what the dealer told me. That was my original thought, collapse due to airation of foamy oil from the overfill. Engine has run approx 40 miles since oil level was corrected. Just a theory, is it possible extra oil caused more friction or energy required causing tensioner to fail or timing chain to jump? Are they plastic teeth on the timing gears? It may be thin but I don't think engine problem and overfill are coincidence. Unless previous owner isnt telling me everything. Can't complain at the price. Thanks again. Paul W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Is it realistic that overfilling a 6qt motor by 1 qt would cause a loss of oil pressure? Even if it foamed a bit... Now, maybe some weird case of hydrolock caused by oil entering the cylinders after shutdown? There was a problem on the '01s where some chain guides would fracture, would cause a bit of noise because the chain would be very loose, but the engine would still run. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 You guys were right, so far 2,4,& 6 190psi + 1,3,& 5 around 150psi. Next question, how do i find TDC of 1, 3, & 5 without removing chain cover. I think the next step is to do a leak down test to check for damaged valves right? Would it be safe to assume if cylinder #1 passes a leak down test, (assuming it may be easier to find TDC of #1) that 3 & 5 would also be ok. And is there any way to tell if the timing is off other than visual inspection of chain and marks. How about valve cover removal and looking at cam lobes? Thanks again Paul W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Engine does run, and not as bad as you would think for what i beleive to be on three cylinders, unless the 1,3,5 bank are only partialy working. Also bad smell while running, like lots of unburned fuel. This is not the first time I have heard of timing chain issues. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) The fact that all 3 cylinders on the bad side are very close in pressure may be a very good sign. If the valves did get bent I would think the chances of all 3 having the same pressure after the damage would be real slim. On the other hand, if just the valve timing got moved then I could see all 3 cylinders having close to the same pressure. I'm thinking you may just need to set the valve timing to correct the trouble. Regardless what has happened you are going to have to have some engine work done. If you are going to do it yourself you would be wise to invest some of the money you saved on the purchase price of the car to buy the set of factory service manuals for the car. You can find the set of 8 manuals on Ebay usually for under 200 dollars, which is more than half off the dealer price for these manuals. You can also get the CD version for around 20 dollars. Getting the set of manuals will be some one of the best money you can invest in the car. They will save you a lot of money over time if you do your own work. To find TDC of #1 cylinder there should be a mark on the flywheel to refer to. Edited October 20, 2009 by Cougar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Update, finally broke down and dove right into it. After pulling timing cover, I saw marks according to all data were off by a tooth or two on exaust and intake. Took necessary steps and realigned. Funny thing is belt tensioner on left was able to be depreesed slightly, tensioner on right I could not budge, which leads me to beleive the chain that jumped has a bad tensioner. I was told the shoud have a lock out and are only able to get tighter by oil pressure and should not be able to be compressed or loosen, without manually turning while applying pressure on the bench. My theroy of over filling oil and foaming to cause tensioner to fail went out the window. Any thoughts, there arent many pieces to this thing and would hate to order new one if I didn't need one. By the way I did start it after reassembling and it runs perfect. YAHOO!!! Now what do I do? I dont want chain to fail and ruin engine for real this time. Thanks again for everyones help Paul W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 By the way I did start it after reassembling and it runs perfect. Fantastic! Congratulations! I suppose it would be wisest to replace that tensioner, but at least you know the what, where & why now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) That's great news you got it working well. I also recommend you replace the tensioner. Why risk it? You will know what you have with a new one and won't kick yourself later if the old one does fail later on because it wasn't replaced. You have a very nice car there. Is it the VDC model? I have the LL Bean model. Edited October 20, 2009 by Cougar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Its a good day. I cant thank you all enough. I dont know if its a VDC model. Any one know if the tensioner is a dealer item or after market? I guess I will change it or maybe both if not to costly. I will be posting again shortly, the previous owner also stated the car had a slight wobble or shimmy that know one could fix. Balance tires ,new rim ect.. I asked if anyone mentioned the half shaft. He said no. Can they cause these symptons. Bye for now Im off to Tire Rack for new sneaks, any suggestions? Paul W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Update, finally broke down and dove right into it. After pulling timing cover, I saw marks according to all data were off by a tooth or two on exaust and intake. Took necessary steps and realigned. Funny thing is belt tensioner on left was able to be depreesed slightly, tensioner on right I could not budge, which leads me to beleive the chain that jumped has a bad tensioner. A loose tensioner could certainly allow the chain enough slack to jump. Can we assume that it's the right-hand (not left) tensioner that seemed loose? (Left and right are determined as when you're sitting in the car, not while facing the engine from the front. I'm only questioning this so that if you need to get parts, you wind up with the correct ones.) I was told the shoud have a lock out and are only able to get tighter by oil pressure and should not be able to be compressed or loosen, without manually turning while applying pressure on the bench. My theroy of over filling oil and foaming to cause tensioner to fail went out the window. Yes, but let's assume the tensioner didn't properly ''lock''. It might have been okay as long as there was proper oil pressure, but aerated oil wasn't able to sufficiently expand it. Any thoughts, there arent many pieces to this thing and would hate to order new one if I didn't need one. By the way I did start it after reassembling and it runs perfect. YAHOO!!! Now what do I do? I dont want chain to fail and ruin engine for real this time. Thanks again for everyones help Paul W I agree with the suggestions to replace the tensioner. While you're at it, inspect the chain guides and tension lever for fatigue cracks, and be sure to reseal the chain cover when the work is done. Well done, not just on getting it to run right, but also because you ''dove right into it'', as you said! We also appreciate the feedback -- too many times advice is given, but we don't get to hear what the outcome is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwarcholik Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 What should I seal cover with for the final assembly? Should I spring for a timing (kit) chains,guides,ect... After market or oem? Anything else I should be changing while I'm here water pump ect... Thanks Paul W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 What should I seal cover with for the final assembly? Should I spring for a timing (kit) chains,guides,ect... After market or oem? Anything else I should be changing while I'm here water pump ect... Thanks Paul W. Depends on how many miles on it. Over 150,000 it'd be easy to say do everything (it'll then be good for 350,000), under 50,000 it's easy to say don't do any of it, in-between it's a judgement-call. The dealer used red silicone to seal my timing cover (PO hit a stump and it needed a new oil pan). Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) What should I seal cover with for the final assembly? [...] For what Subaru suggests, see page 24 of http://www.endwrench.com/current/summer03/InsiderInfoEndFall03.pdf . EDIT: Here's some Three Bond info: http://www.threebond.co.jp/en/product/series/sealants/1200list.html http://www.threebond.co.jp/en/product/series/sealants/popup/1200/1280bpopup.html Edited October 20, 2009 by OB99W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 As far as your model goes, I think Subaru only made two versions of the Outback that had an H6 inside it in 2001. The LL Bean and the VDC. The VDC was the top of the line and had the McIntosh sound system. Both models are great rides. I think you are going to like it a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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