Loyale Starting Problem

[robm]

1993 Loyale, 5 speed, 4x4 wagon, 289,000 km.

 

It has become reluctant to start. The symptoms are that it will not turn over when the key is turned in the ignition. Recently I have found that if I turn the key, then stomp the clutch hard and fast, it will turn over. This morning , it wouldn't start then, either.

 

When I stomp the clutch, I can hear a click under the hood. The lights etc. do not get dim.

 

It does seem to be temperature related, somewhat. Worse in the cold (about 40 deg. F today).

 

Possibilities I have thought of:

 

Old/bad battery (Except the voltage does not seem to drop, as shown by the lights staying bright)

 

Funky ckutch switch (except I can hear that click under the hood...)

 

Bad contacts in the starter motor?

 

Ignition switch? (how many contacts must be made to start the engine?)

 

Starter relay contacts? (Is there a starter relay, or only a solenoid and contacts in the starter motor?)

 

Thanks,

 

Rob.

[GeneralDisorder]

This is a common problem with the crank circuit of the EA82's. Typically the ignition switch or part of the circuit can't pass enough amps to engage the starter solenoid. There are a couple things you should do first:

 

1. Address the battery connections - sometimes a loose or corroded cable is the problem.

 

2. Check the connections at the starter - sometimes the solenoid wire is loose.

 

3. Check the connections at the fusible links - mostly the small wire going to the positive battery terminal. Sometimes there are issues there. Clean and tighten each of the links.

 

4. Check the connection from the wireing harness to the ignition switch. Sometimes excessive resistance in the circuit can cause this connection to overheat and melt. Clean the terminals.

 

5. Dissasemble and clean the solenoid contacts in the starter. Sometimes this is enough to get them to engage easier and ease the problem. Often though this is just a good maintenance item.

 

5. If all else fails you have one of two options: A. Replace the ignition switch and see if the problem goes away - sometimes a used switch is just as bad though. B. Install a relay turned on by the ignition switch that applies battery voltage to the starter solenoid - this nearly always fixes the prolem permanently as the ignition switch, though damaged, can pass enough current to close the relay.

 

GD

[robm]

Thanks for the summary. It is starting fine now, although I haven't done anything to it. I HATE intermittent faults!

 

What does the clutch switch do, anyway? According to the wiring diagrams in the Haynes manual, it looks like the switch only acts as an input to the ECM. If that was the case, I would expect the starter to turn over with or without the clutch pedal down, just the engine wouldn't start. But that is not the way it works. The clutch has to be on the floor for the starter to turn.

 

Can anyone tell me how it is really wired?

 

Thanks,

 

Rob.

[zilejanis]

Take off wires from clutch pedal switch and connect both of them with jump wire- it will be european car after this.

Janis.

[Sonicfrog]

I have the same problem. On Murphy, the $500 87 T-Wag, when it happens, the solenoid clicks, but the starter motor doesn't turn. The problem occurs when you start it in the mornings. it has rarely done it during the summer.

 

PS. Hey GD. My God. I haven't written anything here in eons.... I feel so ashamed!

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - you can jumper the wires from the pedal switch to overide the clutch safety. The EA81's didn't even have them - only EA82's and newer.

 

It could be that the switch is worn or the rubber bumper that engages it is worn on the pedal assembly. There's a couple switches down there - one is for the ECU. The crank safety is a different switch and may be on a seperate diagram.

 

Sonic - good to see you back. Your problem is likely a connection issue if you are hearing the solenoid click. It could be a lot of things - go through the whole crank circuit and see what you find.

 

GD

Edited November 3, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[Sonicfrog]

Hey GD:

 

I lean toward the starter brushes. If you recall, I converted my T-Wag from a crappy 3 speed AT to a 5 on the floor. I never bothered to wire in a clutch switch and bypassed that circuit instead. When turning the switch to crank, everything does dim, and volt meter on the dash does drop a point or two. showing that I do have current flow into the starter. This weekend I'm gonna pull the starter and clean the innards. Wouldn't hurt..

[GeneralDisorder]

Well - you have voltage drop somewhere - could be through the switch. A bad connection will draw a bunch of amps but they are generating heat in the poor connection rather than kicking the solenoid out hard and fast.

 

If you are hearing clicking then it's not the brushes but it could be burned contacts in the solenoid.

 

More often on the EA82's it's not the starter but either a bad connection (often in the battery cables), or somewhere in the harness. I've addressed all the connections, replaced ignition switches, starters, etc - only to have the problem return. Once I installed a relay in the crank circuit to take the load off the switch the problem went away for good. I've had to do this on several EA82's. It's something deep in the harness that I don't feel like ripping them apart to find.

 

GD

[Sonicfrog]

Well - you have voltage drop somewhere - could be through the switch. A bad connection will draw a bunch of amps but they are generating heat in the poor connection rather than kicking the solenoid out hard and fast.

 

Good point. Will do some tracking this week-end. I'm still going to check the starter guts.... just because it's been a long time since I've done that. I'm due.

[Yo'J]

Dont forget the ground. That was my prob once. Intermittent failure. Spark had no where to go, sure you got it going by jostling the car and opening the hood but a 20yr old very overlooked......

[robm]

After fighting with this intermittent no-start problem for several months, I finally put an interposing relay into the system, as advised by GD.

 

It worked for a week or so, now it is back to its old behaviour.

 

Symptoms:

Won't start sometimes. Not even a click.

If I turn the key to "start", hold it for 15 -20 seconds, then punch the clutch hard, it will go. Sometimes I have to do this several times, I just get a click at first.

It seems to prefer doing this when the car has just been on the highway.

Weather is not an issue, 40 deg. plus temperatures. Toasty warm for February.

 

What I have tried:

New battery

Cleaned connections at battery and at starter motor

Installed interposing relay so the ignition switch etc. only sees enough current to pull in a standard Subaru round headlight relay.

 

What is left?

 

I lean towards it being the clutch switch. Maybe out of adjustment? Or dirty? WHERE is the *#$&@ thing?

 

The other option is the starter motor solenoid contacts. But why does it respond to the clutch being punched?

 

This thing is beginning to really bug me. The last time it failed me I was at the light for the one lane bridge., Very embarrassing, with a line of traffic behind. It started just in time to miss that light.

[naru]

Worn starter brushes possibly.

 

Solenoid pull-in coil is energized thru the brushes.Bad contact =no solenoid pull in.Clutch movement jiggles the brushes just enough.

 

Or the clutch sw.It will be near the pedal.Jump around it or test for voltage drop across it w/a voltmeter.

[robm]

Smacking the starter with a tire iron helps sometimes, too. That makes the brushes sound even more likely.

 

Are brushes available from the dealer?

 

I have had my head under the dash a few times, dealing with a wonky blower relay, but I have not been able to find that flipping clutch switch.

[naru]

Yes,and the local parts store too.

IIRC,they are a little harder to replace than some others as some of the leads are welded because of the high current.

 

Recently had the same trouble on a non-sube Hitachi starter.

Best to buy the complete brush holder w/brushes welded in already.

I paid $40 CDN.

 

Similar to these

http://www.wagneralt.com/catalog/books/Cat%2050%20Brush%20Holders%202006.pdf

[robm]

I notice you used $C. Are you in Canada, or did you just convert it for me as a courtesy?

 

If you are in Canada, which parts store did you get them from? We don't have a lot of choice where I live.

 

Thanks.

[naru]

Local independent jobber.

NAPA was about the same-had to order from VAN.

Any local auto supply should be able to get them.

 

Used to visit Terrace when a trip to the "city" was needed.

Loved the old rickety single lane bridge across the swirling Skeena.

A thrill every time. LOL

 

Bears in the backyard were fun too.

[robm]

Not brushes, definitely the contacts.

 

Tried all the local parts stores. NAPA has not got contacts for them, nor has anyone else. Dealer only has the whole solenoid as a listing, and can't get them. Dealer price on a reman is $300! For $10 worth of parts?

 

Naru, where did you get those parts, and when was this? Maybe I am a victim of shrinking inventories.

 

I tried to clean up the contacts, but it isn't any better. One contact is so worn, the solenoid plunger is not making contact with it. I even tried to file the unworn contact, to make it line up better, but no go.

 

To start now, I have to turn the key just as my clutch foot hits the firewall. And pray!

[GeneralDisorder]

Subaru has been using the same starters since '81 and at least up till the mid 2000's. Just find a good used one - shouldn't be hard. Also some Toyota's used starters that have similar contacts and brushes. You might look into that.

 

GD

[robm]

By the time a Subaru hits the boneyard around here, it is high mileage. A used starter probably wouldn't be in much better state than the one I already have. Not worth the $50 they would charge, nor the labour to rip and replace.

 

I have found a place in Prince George that will sell me the parts for $9.00, and a friend to put them on the bus to get here. The same bits mailordered (internet ordered?) out of the US would run me $40 - $100, after duty, brokerage, shipping, exchange and taxes.

[silverhelme]

If you are looking for contacts look at the late 80s toyota trucks. I used these last time I had to replace mine. If I remember correctly a little bit of fileing is needed but it has been 7-8 years since I did it.

[robm]

I got new starter motor contacts on Saturday. It took less than an hour to rip, repair and replace the starter, including walking the half mile to where it finally stopped working completely. Parts cost $C 8.00, shipping was twice as much! Still a bargain.

 

I got the parts from AB Automotive Electric in Prince George. They are good people to deal with. They had the parts in stock, and were very happy to sell them, unlike the outfit in Vancouver that would only sell the parts installed. I don't mind the guy trying to get a bigger chunk of the work, but come on! I have a dead car 800 miles away, how am I supposed to get it to him?