pickn4him Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Hello everyone! I'm a newbie on the forum and own a '04 Legacy Outback Sedan with an EJ25 SOHC engine and 117K on the odometer. I just finished the head gasket job (the first oil leak source) with much help from a Soob CD-ROM shop manual, but it appears that the oil leak wasn't just coming from there. I still have "that smell" and it appears the oil pan is now the culprit. The back half of the pan and adjacent crossmember has oil on it and some pan bolts show droplets hanging from them also. Does anyone have any preferred recomendations on gasket type (cork vs. rubber) or mfr. (Soob vs. aftermkt brands)? I did the Soob brand gaskets on the heads, plug tubes, rocker covers and exhaust. But the intakes were F-L Pro. Also, I assume the exhaust needs to be dropped out to do this like the shop manual sez to allow the engine to be raised and not wreck the pipes? I'd also like to reuse the exhaust gaskets since they are new. I have ready access to an engine hoist. Also, the shop manual said something about a pan separator? I need some clarification on that. I can see that there is an internal baffle (aka-windage tray) by the illustration, but I get the idea it is to get the pan loose after the bolts are out? Any help is appreciated in advance! Thanks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 The pan is sealed on with RTV, no gasket needed. Your oil leak may be the air oil baffle plate on the rear of the engine and not the oil pan. These are prone to leaking. If yours is the plastic version replace it with the metal one and RTV is the seal. You have to pull the engine for this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 verify the leak before proceeding. rear separator (what he just referred too) plate is a leakage source too. although i dont' think that will leak profusely. either way you want to make sure you don't do the wrong job and still end up with a leak. good news is those exhaust gaskets are extremely robust and one of the few gaskets you can reuse, i've reused even old ones numerous time. the Subaru exhaust manifold gaskets are typically much better than aftermarkets too, if you used Subaru you're golden. aftermarkets should still be fine too though being this new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 OUCH! I'll have to do more looking at the car and the manual I suppose. The car has the auto transmission and I think I read here that there's a seating procedure to reattaching the engine to the torque converter? Is the separator plate (if it is plastic) visible behind the oil pan apart from pulling the engine? If I had known that much, I would have pulled it to do the head gaskets. It wasn't impossible but it was a ROYAL PAIN getting the heads in and out without a lot of finessing or doing damage to something (like the new gaskets). So far the heads are not leaking since the fix. I took the plastic under engine pan off last night and drove it in to work today without that on. I thought that might have some residual oil in it but the oil pan told the tale last night. Thanks for the input, past and future. I really like this car and want to keep it a while longer for economic reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Step one clean the engine. Step two replace the PCV valve. But i suspect it is the seperator plate at the rear of the engine. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 at 114,000 it should also have a new timing belt on it - and probably at least one pulley (usually the sprocketed one is in the worst shape). with proper maintenance you have another 100,000 miles easily out of this car, so while some of these things are annoyances and might be ill timed it's not that bad of a deal for a pretty easy 100,000 miles. hang in there and hopefully all of this is taken care of and you can forget about it and get back to thoughtless commuting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yep, I did the timing belt and supposed it might be a cam or crank seal but the bigger leak was the head gaskets. The heads were pretty clean and the leak hadn't been going on but for a couple months. I didn't do the cam or crank seals, which I may regret later since I was that close. The cam belt cogs seemed in good shape (to my untrained eye) and the used timing belt wasn't all that bad looking for the age. The A/C and P/S belts were a lot worse. Most of my wife's commute is Interstate and only about 25% is city driving. I do have a Diesel Mechanics degree from about 30 years ago but never got into that line of work because of the disaster of Jimmy Carter's "malaise" (another subject), but I have gained a lot of my confidence back through these two jobs on my own car. I guess a deep breath and more research on the shop manual CD will help. I probably wasn't that far away from pulling the motor after taking the fuel lines loose. All that would remain is laying the A/C to the side, the radiator hoses, motor mounts and torque converter bolts. It's still "cheaper to keep her". Thanks again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Well, I have the engine about ready to come out. All I lack is THE PARTS!!! I went to two dealerships. The closest one didn't have ANY of the parts. The other (20 miles away) had the rear main seal but had to order the rest (oil separator plate & bolts). I guess I should have checked the parts availability first, yet I would have thought if it was a common problem they would have at least stocked a couple. I found an A/C hose there last year when I couldn't find it at the local Subie dealer (I have a hard time calling it that), so I took a chance. I opted to take the motor out because I had a hoist and didn't want to spend all my time on the floor. I'll give another update in about a week when I get done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Do NOT play with the rear main seal. They rarely leak. They are a pita to get seated just right so that they don't leak again. Usually it takes a second try to get them right, or a third. Leave it be if it is not leaking. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Ok, nipper. Now you're scaring me. I've replaced seals in various shafts like rear tranny yoke seals. Is it the depth or straightness or both? I have a Subie OEM seal, not an aftermarket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Ok, nipper. Now you're scaring me. I've replaced seals in various shafts like rear tranny yoke seals. Is it the depth or straightness or both? I have a Subie OEM seal, not an aftermarket. If you do a search here on Rear Main Seal you will see that it gets messey. Its a combination of depth, some wear in the crank where the seal sits, and the knowledge of how to handle a seal issue like this. If it is bone dry leave it alone. This seal doesnt mind being ignored, as opposed to the front main seal. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Well, I got the engine out today and the separator plate was the cast aluminum one not the plastic. YAY! It had been leaking but the rear main also appeared to have been some what from the oil stains on the opposite side from the plate and the stains on the lower part of the seal. So I really felt like I was put between a rock and a hard place after all I had read about this being a futile effort. I may regret it but it seems like I had no choice but to replace the seal, which I did with as much care and finesse as I could. I tried to match the depth and even the same way the original was put in. I wiped the seal mounting area clean before installing the new one. I don't think I could have done it any differently than any other Subie technician would do. Time will tell, I suppose. I also cleaned the separator plate surfaces of the old sealant and oil and used the proper grey import engine sealant. I set it aside to cure for the recommended time then installed it. I appreciate your input and concern but as the cliche' says, "that's my story and I'm stickin' to it". Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Well, I got the engine out today and the separator plate was the cast aluminum one not the plastic. YAY! It had been leaking but the rear main also appeared to have been some what from the oil stains on the opposite side from the plate and the stains on the lower part of the seal. So I really felt like I was put between a rock and a hard place after all I had read about this being a futile effort. I may regret it but it seems like I had no choice but to replace the seal, which I did with as much care and finesse as I could. I tried to match the depth and even the same way the original was put in. I wiped the seal mounting area clean before installing the new one. I don't think I could have done it any differently than any other Subie technician would do. Time will tell, I suppose. I also cleaned the separator plate surfaces of the old sealant and oil and used the proper grey import engine sealant. I set it aside to cure for the recommended time then installed it. I appreciate your input and concern but as the cliche' says, "that's my story and I'm stickin' to it". Thanks! Yay, usually people put it in too deep and cause issues. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech1967 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Never had a problem, but then the correct tool is hanging on the wall. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Well, got the Subie fired back up this afternoon. I had to work nights over the weekend and it sort of delayed the progress. All I had left to do was the radiator and related hoses, the belts and the airbox. I replaced all the ding-y little wire hose clamps I took off for good old-fashioned worm gear clamps! I just love it when I've put everything back together and hit the key and it fires right up! SWEET!!! So far the oil smell is fading. Drove it home from my mom & dads garage where I did the work, and then out again tonight. Had a little oil smell at first, I suppose where the greasy hands were on the exhaust and the residual oil that was still on the crossmember. Tonight it was all but gone. Hopefully it will stay that way! My heart goes out to "outdoor" who has a tranny leak and not a oil leak but the dealer did a oil leak fix. It sure made me check my tranny & differential levels! Edited November 25, 2009 by pickn4him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadwick35/04 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Hey man , first let me clarify before you pull the motor for that rear seperator plate, I worked at a subaru dealer man and 2000 and up models had changed to a metal seperator plate so it's not that, I have a 2004 myself and I know that they are metal, now if you owned a model from 1999 and back then you had a plastic one, so it sounds to me like your oil pan needs to be removed and resealed, I just wanted to let you know about that before you pulled the motor and found the metal one instead to many people think that they were plastic beyond 2000 and they are not, trust me on this one I know from working at the subaru dealer for a long time, I had a 99 outback that had that seperator plate leak and the good part it was covered under warranty at that time so it costed me nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 Hey man , first let me clarify before you pull the motor for that rear seperator plate, I worked at a subaru dealer man and 2000 and up models had changed to a metal seperator plate so it's not that, I have a 2004 myself and I know that they are metal, now if you owned a model from 1999 and back then you had a plastic one, so it sounds to me like your oil pan needs to be removed and resealed, I just wanted to let you know about that before you pulled the motor and found the metal one instead to many people think that they were plastic beyond 2000 and they are not, trust me on this one I know from working at the subaru dealer for a long time, I had a 99 outback that had that seperator plate leak and the good part it was covered under warranty at that time so it costed me nothing. Hey, and thanks for the info. Wish I had known that before I pulled it out but what's done is done. It appeared that there was some leakage from either the plate or the rear main. So, I resealed the plate (after cleaning it) and went ahead and changed the rear main. So far I still have "that smell", so the oil pan is all that's left. That's a job for another day. I think I should have done that while I had it out, but hind sight is always 20/20. It shouldn't be too bad to just lift up the motor a little to get to those rear pan bolts. I just wish there was an actual gasket instead of RTV, but I'm a little old school on that one. I do have a flex-shaft nut driver extension that I might be able to get the bolts out with but I'd imagine it's more about dropping the pan straight down than getting the bolts out. If anyone else has some input or experience on the oil pan, feel free to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 You are exactly right, the bolts are not the issue. Gaining clearance for the sump and baffles in the pan is the issue. The pan has baffle plates with only a small margin for moving and tilting, giving it no clearance to come around the crossmember. Engine has to be lifted up. As for the gasket if you like an actual gasket you can make one. Subaru used to have gaskets and they weren't that reliable, folks started coating them with RTV to make sure they sealed. Probably because the pan holes get concave or not smooth or something, but the gaskets would often re-leak on older models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 You are exactly right, the bolts are not the issue. Gaining clearance for the sump and baffles in the pan is the issue. The pan has baffle plates with only a small margin for moving and tilting, giving it no clearance to come around the crossmember. Engine has to be lifted up. As for the gasket if you like an actual gasket you can make one. Subaru used to have gaskets and they weren't that reliable, folks started coating them with RTV to make sure they sealed. Probably because the pan holes get concave or not smooth or something, but the gaskets would often re-leak on older models. Yeah, I have considered the idea of getting a sheet of gasket material and cutting one out. I suppose that the airbox and pitching stopper will have to come loose for that operation as do the motor mounts. Any other items I'm overlooking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Radiator hoses. Not necessary (i think i've done both ways), but probably a good idea to unbolt the rear trans crossmember so it can "hang down" and put less stress on the trans crossmember bushings. very easy to do anyway, just a few bolts (4 i think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Radiator hoses. Not necessary (i think i've done both ways), but probably a good idea to unbolt the rear trans crossmember so it can "hang down" and put less stress on the trans crossmember bushings. very easy to do anyway, just a few bolts (4 i think). Hi, Out of curiosity, I consulted my Subaru Shop manual cd and in the oil pan removal, it states that the top radiator mounts are took loose. I guess the radiator sort of "floats free" with the hoses still attached and without draining the radiator and taking them loose? Sounds weird but almost worth a try. Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Well, I have installed an actual oil pan gasket that I cut from a piece of 1/32" thick rubber/fiber gasket material. I cleaned the pan and block surface with brake clean on a rag after wirebrushing the old grey goo off. I gave the pan and block a light coat of grey import RTV, just enough to color the surfaces. So far all is well. The radiator hoses did not have to come off but the shop manual just advised to take the top radiator brackets off. The radiator sort of leaned a little but never really got in too much of a strain. I really hope this is the end of the oil leak dilemma!!! Merry Christmas!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svxpert Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Well, I have installed an actual oil pan gasket that I cut from a piece of 1/32" thick rubber/fiber gasket material. I cleaned the pan and block surface with brake clean on a rag after wirebrushing the old grey goo off. I gave the pan and block a light coat of grey import RTV, just enough to color the surfaces. So far all is well. The radiator hoses did not have to come off but the shop manual just advised to take the top radiator brackets off. The radiator sort of leaned a little but never really got in too much of a strain. I really hope this is the end of the oil leak dilemma!!! Merry Christmas!!! why would you use a gasket when subaru calls for just sealant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldfusion21 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Well, they only call for sealant because they don't make a gasket anymore, because people could get the same result with sealant. Therefor he isn't doing any harm at all, just making sure he doesn't have to do it again. Technically he did use sealant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 why would you use a gasket when subaru calls for just sealant? To answer your question, it is just a matter of personal preference, aka "old school". I just don't care for using sealant alone. I am sure it works and that it went 110K miles without leaking but I really don't see the harm in just using a 1/32" thick gasket material but I still lightly greyed it in on both sides, so it's like an extra layer of protection against ever doing it again for a LONG time! So, chill dude. It's my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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