Outback 2.5 to 2.2 and Auto to Manual

[Gsir08]

So, long story short I decided to take on a massive project of swapping a 2.2L with a 5 speed manual from my 96 outback into a 97 shell Outback shell that I had that used to be a 2.5 with an automatic. Since I had the 97, and my 96 was totalled I decided it was the best thing to do, and I was reading that the 2.2 to 2.5 swap is no big deal. Now I got it all together and it runs, and revs smoothly and everything, but when the car is idling it misses very badly and hte motor shakes. Now I see that you must match the motors with EGR and non EGR. And it seems like the Autos came with EGR and manuals do not. My 97 2.5 had an EGR but my 96 2.2 did not. When I did the swap, I swapped the main engine harness, used all of the 2.2 stuff, and the 2.2 ECU. Now is my idle issue caused by my lack of EGR? Should'nt it work fine since I have the 2.2 ECU in it and it wouldnt be looking for it anyway? What else could cause it to shake so bad when idling and then rev fine? I've gone over all my connections several times now, checked plugs, wires, all that stuff and everything seems ok. It just doesnt want to idle smoothly.

[idosubaru]

THIS IS NOT RELATED TO EGR. your running issues are not related to the non-EGR into an EGR vehicle.

 

You're running the auto trans? if so then it doesn't matter what ECU you put into - ECU's run multiple types of vehicles. If you have an auto trans it is expecting an EGR, swapping ECU's does not fix that.

 

you probably have a vacuum leak or cylinder misfire of some sort. i'd suspect any number of vacuum leaks or spark plugs or wires.

[Gsir08]

I have a manual transmission now. I used the 96 2.2 and 5spd. into the 97 2.5 Automatic. And used the manual transmission. I know that my battery is not in the best of shape but could that possibly cause it? It revs smoothly in neutral. And so the EGR will not be a problem at all since the 97 2.5 had it and I put in the 2.2 which does not have it? I might throw on a vacuum gauge and make sure theres no leaks. I see no loose hoses or anything, but the motor is freshly rebuilt so something might have gone wrong with the gasket install.

[Gsir08]

UPDATE: I just unplugged number one injector while it was running, and unfortunatly i find it makes no difference as to how the car runs. looks like ive got a problem here. i can probably check the wiring to that injector and see if its getting power right?

 

And I went back out there to try some more testing, now its a good 20 degrees colder than it was today in the day and the motor has been sitting and I cannot get it to even start. Would one injector not firing make it impossible to start cold? What could be causing problems like this it seems really strange to me.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Gsir08

[EVOthis]

You mentionied your battery wasnt the best...now it doesnt start when cold...I would prob throw a new/good battery in there before you start any diagnosis fore I've seen weak batteries/charging systems do some very odd things...

[Gsir08]

Ya I'll try that, its weird though cause I keep throwing the battery charger on it, and it cranks quickly but wont start. Then after about 5 seconds of cranking it begins to just die out on me. And on the battery charger it will say its full charged in like 20 minutes. And it is not a fast battery charger. I just find it extremely strange that it still cranks over fine and wont start with a charger on it, if it was a problem with the battery

[Gsir08]

Update Again. So I took the battery out of my good running car, and tried it in this, and still nothing. I can't even get the car to like fire even a little bit. It's just like dead cranking. Why did it go from running on 3 cylinders to none? If I unplugged num ber one injector and it made no difference could that be either an ignition issue or a fuel injector issue. If that cylinders shooting fuel but not sparking youd see no difference when unplugged correct?

[Gsir08]

I need help, I'm stumped I cannot get it to start at all now, and I've gone over like everything

[lmdew]

Try unplugging the battery for 24 hours to clear the ECU codes. It shouldn't take this long, but while you are waiting, you can fully charge the battery and then have it tested.

 

With the ECU clear of codes and a good battery try to start the engine. If it cranks but does not fire, try a little gas or starter fluid down the intake and crank again.

 

If the CEL light comes back on have the codes read out.

 

Fuel, Spark. If you did not change all of the wiring out, complete harness, the ECU may have plugged in but it may not be wired the same. Try the old ECU.

[idosubaru]

I think you may need to find the pin that tells the ECU what kind of transmission the car has. FSM will help greatly here.

 

Start tracking down the MT/AT indicator pin...i think. Haven't had to do that yet myself (as i haven't swapped EJ stuff from auto to manual) but others have played around with these pins. I recall someone just this year posting about it in a thread - looking for, and changing that indicator pin, though for a different reason.

 

Read through someone elses auto to 5 speed swap - SVX has lots of documentation, etc - they will show what pin you need to work with.

 

Have you checked for vacuum leaks? The easiest way i believe is to have someone trying to start the car while spraying starter fluid/carb spray all over the rear of the engine bay. Vacuum leak will show in 10 seconds or less that way usually.

 

I like Larry's idea too - install the original ECU to be sure.

[Gsir08]

Okay so i was just out there working on it, i've tried pouring gas straight down the intake and that does not do anything for it. i finally tried to check spark by myself and i didnt not get any spark. i did resistance checks on the coil, the crank and cam sensors and all thats good. so at this point im almost certain that its just not getting spark. id suspect a wiring or ecu issue, but why was it running for like a good amount of time but on 3 cylinders? I'm afraid that if I go to stock ECU it'll think its an AUTO with an EGR. So now with no spark, what is the first thing I should be looking at checking. I hate diagnosing ignition parts theres no real good way to test anything.

[idosubaru]

no spark at all?

swap coils first.

then swap the crank sensor.

then swap the ECU.

 

you got the other engine avaialble - that stuff would take like 15 minutes to swap.

 

listen up - you're going to school - i'm not 100% sure about your vehicle but on older subaru's ECU's are interchangeable between auto's and manuals! it doesn't matter, in those cases you adherence to a particular ECU would be completely benign. it would mean only YOU think it's a "manual ECU" the car is still thinking "auto, auto, auto...."

 

not sure that's how it works on this combo but i'd be awfully suspicious given your problems.

[Gsir08]

will 97 2.5 ignition components work on a 96 2.2? like coil, ignitor, crank or cam sensor?

[idosubaru]

pretty sure all of that is interchangeable.

 

a quick look up of parts online will tell you. either at a subaru dealership online or maybe subaru's parts resource:

 

http://opposedforces.com/parts/

[Gsir08]

And does anyone have any more information on what ECU I should be using exactly and what I do with AT/MT on this car? The car used to be automatic and I just plugged my 2.2 ECU in. And I assumed I wouldn't have to change wiring of the identifier pin because I used the ECU out of the manual. Is this not true, and I need to change that pin?

[Gsir08]

swapped coil from 2.5, cam sensor, ignitor, and replaced the crank sensor and it still just cranks and cranks and cranks. I tried putting in the old ecu. Still the same. I don't know what the problem here is. What else could make it have no spark? I've checked like all the ignition components and made sure all the grounds are in very good shape.

[lmdew]

Test the injectors when the car is cranking. They make test lights just for the injectors. If the injectors are not powered and you have no spark, I'd say the ECU is not getting the inputs it needs.

 

Look at my thread on the Auto to manual swap. You will still have to have the electrical diagram for you cars to trace the wires.

[Gsir08]

if the ecu wasnt getting input it needs it probably wouldnt have started and ran for like 5 minutes like it did. could it?

And I'm going to buy a set of noid lights today.... I'm like 90% sure theres fuel, you can smell it when it cranks but it'll be good to make sure all are getting told to inject.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Gsir08

[Gsir08]

Okay, so, after checking wether or not I'm getting signal to my coil to fire, I find that there is nothing. Nothing is telling the coil to fire. And at this point ive got a new crank sensor in it, and have tried swapping all other components, and put all the 2.2 stuff back. Now I made an attempt at seeing if the ECU is telling the ICM to fire. So I unplugged the plug off the ICM, stuck one prong of my voltmeter to pin 1, which according to everything I've read is the signal from the ECU to fire. So I crank the car over with that pin being checked, and sure enough the voltmeter bounces between nothing and random amounts of voltage, it happens so quick its hard to get an accurate reading on the volts. But it does seem that when cranked, the ICM is getting some sort of signal to fire. Is this a sure way to check if the ICM is bad or is it uncheckable? I'd love to know whats the problem for sure before I start buying parts.

[lostinthe202]

How's about your timing belt and components? How many miles are on the engine? When is the last time you did the belt? How about the tensioner? Perhaps your belt slipped or broke.

[Fairtax4me]

Get a spark plug off your old motor and plug it into one of the wires on the new motor. Set the plug on the block where you can see it and crank it to see if you are indeed getting spark or not.

 

What all did you replace during the rebuild of the engine?

[Gsir08]

Alll gaskets. I put new bearings and rings in. And now i just replaced the crank sensor, and I already checked for spark and there is none. The alternator is new from the other car, coolant temp sensor. Anybody know a good way of testing the ICM? Oh ya and its a brand new timing belt, and the tensioner seemed to be in great shape, good tension on the belt, and its sure to be timed correctly, its kind of hard to mess up with the lines on the belt...

 

I can't wait to have this thing running. It ended up being alot of work but it should be a fairly nice OBW when all done, its got nice heated leather since it was a limited, the body is in decent shape although it is a little faded red. But I'll be so happy to still have my 2.2 and 5 speed. That combo seems to be hard to come by around my area. And if you do theyre usually a decent amount of money.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Gsir08

[Fairtax4me]

If it's getting a signal to fire then I would think it should fire. Did you check to see that the coil is getting power from the battery?

You have a copy of the FSM don't you?

 

 

The lines on the belt are hardly the best way to set the cam timing. But if it ran before just fine, then the timing is probably good unless the belt just straight up broke.

[Gsir08]

Well thanks for all the input guys. I finally got the thing started. I don't know what the problem was first time around when I tried a new battery, but for the second time of trying a new battery it finally started up. I guess it just really neeeded a good battery to start off with, I have no idea why it didn't work the first time I tried it. Oh well all seems to be good now:grin:

[pmichaud]

Hers a section from a guy who stuck one in an airplane. I used it to get my swap running right...If I could find it I would give him credit......!! (Sorry)

 

Changes needed for 1995 thru 1998 year ECM:

1) Tell the ECM you have a manual transmission. Since your engine most likely came with automatic tranny, you need to remove wire #2 from the mass air flow sensor (this connects to pin 47 of ECM). You also need to supply a ground wire to pin 81 of the ECM. Auto tranny wiring harnesses don't have a pin at that location, so I just stole one from an unused wire. While I was at it, I also snipped the wires from pins 61, 79, and 80 since manual transmission vehicles have no connection at those pins. Note, the transmission code still faults occasionally. I have yet to completely eliminate it.

3) You need to duplicate the ignition switch wiring. It needs to see at least 5v at pin 82 of ECM in order to start the engine. I just wired the 12v from the ignition "accessory" terminal to that pin. This tells the ECM that the tranny is safely in "park" position.

Engine modifications:

The EGR valve interferes with my engine cowl. So I just removed it along with the supply tube. I then mounted an aluminum plate over the opening to seal off the intake manifold. I placed a large ball bearing behind the tube fitting to seal the hole. I left the controlling solenoid in place and wired, as the ECM checks for the voltage drop. Optionally I could have removed solenoid and installed a high watt resistor. See pic below.