huelsdonk Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 just wondering if anyone had tried this, like extending out the suspension on top of a lift. i know everyone will say dumb idea but i think it would be bad rump roast to see. i know it would take alot of fab work but if no one else has done it i might just have the time and the craziness to try so lets look at this from a stand point of "lets try it" oh and i have an 87 gl wagon hi-lo, that i need an ea82 for due to spun bearing, but i think this would be a good platform to start with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 With enough money you can do anything. It's going to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000 to $20,000 to make it work properly and not just be a time-bomb. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast I Drive Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 More than a few people have played around with that idea for a while... Do a search, you'll prolly come up with something. -Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) you know, for a fabbin kinda guy....you sure are a puss GD........ if a guy made seperate assemblies that the diffs(thats right, i said diffs) rode in, with axles at a downward angle, and made those a solid piece,he could essentially get the best of both worlds. | /\ | |=tire /\ = axles going to diff, all caged in to form a solid unit kinda like that...........then just 3 and 4 linked it, it would be like having solid axles, then you would just need to attend to the t case..... obviously or really, you could just extend everything by like 4 inches , make it a widetrack.a arms, axles, etfc..... there are several around that ponder this almost daily......it is somewhat of the furthest part of our sickness....word 44 please shed some light if you have it..... cheers, brain Edited November 10, 2009 by monstaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 By "long travel" - I take that to mean 30"+ *at least*. You won't achieve that with stock components. The stock travel of an EA series is about 8" to 10". You are talking at least Porsche 930 CV's and this is not just fabrication territory, You need a full machine shop at your disposal. I'm not going to the trouble of building something like that unless it's going to have a real good chance of surviving Paris to Dakar. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I can't do the concept justice..... yet. Which is why you haven't seen one roll out of my shop. Someday perhaps. But before I do a long-travel setup I'm going to build chain driven portal hubs. They would be the perfect addition to a Subaru. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivantruckman Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I think there are better platforms than a subaru for a monster lift, if your going to do somthing like that you may as well stick it on a jeep frame, or a truck frame, even with an ej engine your not gonna be throwing 50 foot roosters at the mud pit, although im a "purest" I like my lil ea82 , I still think it would be awsome to re engineere a subaru like that... but with a 4 inch lift, and off road tires the subaru is cheap ,durable as hell and unique, I just cant see doing that much modding, than it ceases to be a subaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 just wondering if anyone had tried this, like extending out the suspension on top of a lift. i know everyone will say dumb idea but i think it would be bad rump roast to see. i know it would take alot of fab work but if no one else has done it i might just have the time and the craziness to try so lets look at this from a stand point of "lets try it" oh and i have an 87 gl wagon hi-lo, that i need an ea82 for due to spun bearing, but i think this would be a good platform to start with whats your goal? travel for jumping ?or flex for offcamber slow moving? , if its flex you want you can do that without much travel , mount all the rear suspension on a frame and put a big pivot inline woith the driveshaft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 whats your goal? travel for jumping ?or flex for offcamber slow moving? , if its flex you want you can do that without much travel , mount all the rear suspension on a frame and put a big pivot inline woith the driveshaft scott, isn't that what i just said? and GD,you don't have friends in machine shops?......it might help you to dream a bit .....dreaming leads to vision, vision leads to process, and process leads to product. i talk to people i know with a machine shop all the time,almost every night actually.and we discuss as many different ways to modify a subaru , as well as other vehicles. we just happen to like subarus, so we stick with them. i am stuck on the subaru cockpit.i like it's layout.so that is what i will use.in the end, it may just be a subaru motor,and some interior,but oh well....... it is the step we are at in our fab careers with our cars.... after all, we are all into "hotrods", just because they are not traditional hotrods means nothing.you ever seen what they do to traditional rods?most times they are a body with a million different parts on them from other vehicles.. i am so ************ing sick of people , mainly people with the know how, saying that it is not worth it to do this, or that to our cars..... if you do not have something cool to say about someones idea, then piss off.....it is ok that you do not want to step out of your safe little bubble and try some things.you keep telling yourselves that you can't do it, and you will never be able to...... 10 to 20 g's?to extend and reinforce some suspension pieces? ************, even to fab some completely redesigned a arms and such?your so far off dude its ridiculous....he is not building a desert racer , or rock crawler........ paris to dakar?your retarded.why not build it just for portland to eugene?at least then you would be thinking realistically.which in turn would allow your thought process to come down to human level, and maybe even allow yourself to build something you are obviously uncomfortable with... "like extending out the suspension on top of a lift"....... which in turn , WILL give you more travel regardless....... for ************s sake,quit being negative to ideas. we should demote you to "major negative" at least give the guy some consideration.....he did ask to have this topic looked at as a "lets try it" idealism.... go preach to the people that want to listen to your facts out of your tech manuals....... SO i say...LETS TRY IT!!!!!! cheers, or not.brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast I Drive Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I got to thinking about that rear assembly Idea Brian, and I think Ive come up with a pretty good way to make it work, Im sure you can follow my horrible description skills So make a subframe/cage/unit/whatever to mount the diff/axles/hubs in, but instead of making the axles fixed at a high angle, make the cage have provisions for some coilovers, so the stock subaru stuff still flexes within its limits. Then, put the frame on a 4-link setup with long travel coilovers. Now you are talking some serous rear flex, it would be an indepedant axle assembly, with like a 2-stage suspension setup. For the front you are still pretty much screwed unless you T-case it, then you can do the same thing in the front... -Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3eyedwagon Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) ^ Brian, and Bill I've often thought of the similar designs. Mine was to make an enclosure that was welded to the rear diff just outside the stub plate, with punch out holes to change axles just in case. Then have that round enlclosure (a good piece of pipe that just fit over the axles would be best) angle downward at a fairly gentle angle. The thing to do here would be to pick an angle that Subaru axles can run well at for long periods of time. Then fabricate a mounting plate to weld some of the best available/compatable Subaru hubs to the outer end of that pipe. You would be making a solid axle out of all readily available Subaru components, and the fact that it was fixed would make those weak axles, and stubs last SO much longer. In the end; you would basically be making your own "poor man's Portal" out of Subaru parts, and some well designed trussing pieces. Someone with more time GET AFTER IT! Bill, I really like your idea, I just see problems with the size, and weight that would be necessary to obtain a dual stage setup. I think the complication of it is something that could be figured out by, even just a few of, the group of minds involved in this discussion, but, I just don't see a way around the weight, and bulk it would take to have two sets of suspension working in unison. YET. The axles would probably need 3" - 5" of secondary travel inside the housing that accomodated the initial travel. Even if you limited that secondary travel to 2", I still think that would be a tall order for materials light enough to make it work with such a little ammount of HP. You've definitely got me interested, and I'm sure I'll be pondering this while I'm out in the shop..... "worry about the ounces, and the pounds will come" That will be the key to making this one work. I DO REALLY LIKE where this is going though. It's good to see some people brainstorming on here for once, rather than just some piss poor critiquing of someone else's already finished work. If a few select people, (NOT YOU GD, I think yours is one of the brains we can use on this one) and stupid comments can manage to stay away from this thread; I can see it getting somewhere PS> If you're talking about a long travel Idenpendant Suspension setup..... adopting S-10 or Ranger offroad parts would be my best reccomendation.... probably save you alot of time, and money.... Edited November 10, 2009 by 3eyedwagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) Subaru already solved the stub-axle problem for us. The '95 and up diffs don't use stub axles anymore. They use a male axle that snaps into a c-clip inside the diff. Here's the problem with CV's in general - the higher the angle they are run at, the less torque and speed they can handle before breaking. Currently, one of the best designs out there that's readily availible and reasonably priced is the Porsche 930 CV joint. They can handle angles in excess of 45 degrees and are proven in baja racing with travel of 30" or more. You have two basic options - use the stock axles and work towards a portal setup that can yeild less stress on the stock axles and thus allow both higher ground clearance while running the axle flat as well as larger travel both due to the stress/speed reduction and the fact that you can flex them both up and down equally by running them near flat. Or, you can work toward completely custom axles using something like a 930 CV joint, completely customizing the suspension, etc. This doesn't change the stress factors and you still have the problems related to not enough gearing in the Subaru transaxle. You still have to take a running start at most things as there isn't sufficient gearing for crawling. Larger tires are only going to make this worse. To my mind, any solution that doesn't include better gearing either using a second transfer case or by running something like a portal hub at each wheel is not going to acheive anything more than what folks have already done. I did some of the math, and it would only take a 1.6:1 reduction at each wheel to dramatically reduce the stresses on the driveline and to still allow freeway speeds with a 5 speed D/R. Off the shelf sprockets and chain aren't difficult to source. It's just doing the machine work - cutting splines and building all the custom peices needed for it to work. This also allows use of the Subaru transaxle's because it still uses both the front and rear output's - most people are dissapointed by the divorced t-case setup because you end up eating the rear output gear set on the transaxle. GD Edited November 10, 2009 by GeneralDisorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstaru Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 ok, now we are ghettoing somewhere. i do apologize for personal digs,but it seems like there is a lot of negativity surrounding what myself, and bill, as well as others have been dreaming/designing for a while now.... and i get tired of hearing it.because it is usually someone that knows better. i looked into the porsche cv's.the same thing can basically be accomplished with the later model subaru stuffs.the tensil strength of the ej axles is higher than the porsches,and the cups are about the same breaking strength as well.....now, the travel...the natural length of the ej stuffs put under an ea car would net another 2 inches at least. the front travel on an ea81 is about 5 inches.the rear, depending on the shock , can net about 7-8(but this gets into axle cup breakage territory)....... the ej stuffs could be utilized easily with a subframe. and i have only heard of like 2 people that burned up rear outputs due to stress from utilizing a second t-case...... i mean, i'm just sayin.cheers, brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 i looked into the porsche cv's.the same thing can basically be accomplished with the later model subaru stuffs.the tensil strength of the ej axles is higher than the porsches,and the cups are about the same OK hows the EJ axles compare to the EA axles in strength anyone know that? I measured the rear (91 legacy wagon) and they are the same diameter as the EA82 axles I have , in my opinion if the axles are EA82 rear strength they are not strong enough unless you run a light vehicle with small tires , but Im asuming we are talkin a full Subaru not cut up to save weight and 28-29" tires , myself I would like to see some 32" tires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast I Drive Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 ^Brian, and Bill I've often thought of the similar designs. Mine was to make an enclosure that was welded to the rear diff just outside the stub plate, with punch out holes to change axles just in case. Then have that round enlclosure (a good piece of pipe that just fit over the axles would be best) angle downward at a fairly gentle angle. The thing to do here would be to pick an angle that Subaru axles can run well at for long periods of time. Then fabricate a mounting plate to weld some of the best available/compatable Subaru hubs to the outer end of that pipe. You would be making a solid axle out of all readily available Subaru components, and the fact that it was fixed would make those weak axles, and stubs last SO much longer. In the end; you would basically be making your own "poor man's Portal" out of Subaru parts, and some well designed trussing pieces. Someone with more time GET AFTER IT! Bill, I really like your idea, I just see problems with the size, and weight that would be necessary to obtain a dual stage setup. I think the complication of it is something that could be figured out by, even just a few of, the group of minds involved in this discussion, but, I just don't see a way around the weight, and bulk it would take to have two sets of suspension working in unison. YET. The axles would probably need 3" - 5" of secondary travel inside the housing that accomodated the initial travel. Even if you limited that secondary travel to 2", I still think that would be a tall order for materials light enough to make it work with such a little ammount of HP. You've definitely got me interested, and I'm sure I'll be pondering this while I'm out in the shop..... "worry about the ounces, and the pounds will come" That will be the key to making this one work. I DO REALLY LIKE where this is going though. It's good to see some people brainstorming on here for once, rather than just some piss poor critiquing of someone else's already finished work. If a few select people, (NOT YOU GD, I think yours is one of the brains we can use on this one) and stupid comments can manage to stay away from this thread; I can see it getting somewhere PS> If you're talking about a long travel Idenpendant Suspension setup..... adopting S-10 or Ranger offroad parts would be my best reccomendation.... probably save you alot of time, and money.... Aluminum man, never underestimate Aluminum.... If you wanted the Ultimate in clearance/flex, then Portal Hubs Plus some kind of high-flex system would be the bees knees... The system I am thinking of would, admittedly, be pretty heavy IF steel were used for the construction. Now, if you used Hi-quality Aerospace-grade aluminum (Overkill IMO) Or Titanium Alloy to make the frame, you would not see a signifigant increase in wieght. HOWEVER, then you are getting into expensive terrirtory... Here's a theoretic combination... For HP/Simplicity, a built EA81 (mild, just SPFI pistons, custom cam, polished heads, etc. Good for about 120 HP if you do it right) For gearing, you could use a custom tranny. RX gearset (1-5 gears) with the 1.59 low range gears from a 3.9 D/R. All you would really need is the main body, no need for the center diff or front diff or pinion shaft. Shorten the shift rods and make an adapter to use another tranny (or a T-case) mated to the stripped-down 5 speed main body, then use like an old Chevy truck trans, the ones with the granny low first gear, or something like that (I chose that trans becasue of its size) Now with those mods, the Dual tranny setup is only a little longer than a stock 4 speed. Hook that up to a Transfer case (a Nissan T case would be enough at this point) and then go to the diffs For the front and rear diffs, create a setup similar to what I oulined earlier, but with portal hubs. Im thinking dual A-arms that pivot from centerline of the DOJ at the diff, and centerline of the CV or DOJ at the wheel. On the upper control arms, create a setup that uses coilovers mounter horizantally to save space. Mount that entire unit to the car using Nitrogen-charged coilovers, with adjustable valving or even Air assist or manually controlled Air struts and a 4 link setup with the lower rods pivoting from the center of the wheelbase for the front and the rear. Add manually-controlled steering to the rear assembly and you have a fairly capable setup, in theory. A lot of moving parts though, one of the biggest draws to straight axles is simplicity. But there's no challenge in that... I myself have been very satisfied with what the stock equipment and a lift with large tires can do offroad, my biggest want is more power/better gearing, but I always have the ideas and thoughts for things like this in my head... I might have to bust out the Legos and mock up something... -Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 OK hows the EJ axles compare to the EA axles in strength anyone know that? I measured the rear (91 legacy wagon) and they are the same diameter as the EA82 axles I have , in my opinion if the axles are EA82 rear strength they are not strong enough unless you run a light vehicle with small tires , but Im asuming we are talkin a full Subaru not cut up to save weight and 28-29" tires , myself I would like to see some 32" tires Axle (CV) strength is directly proportional to the angle and speed they are run at. They are strongest at 0 degree's and weakest at their max angle. The joint at the diff is not the problem - you can easily replace those with u-joints in the rear. A set of modified Z car axles could be used and are proven on the Baja circuits at upwards of 20" of travel. The front joints are a whole different animal. The compound angles required to steer the car require that a CV style joint be used. The trick is to run them as flat as possible most of the time. That will take care of 90% of the problems most people have. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I have no idea what you guys are talking about but I can almost see your shiny eyes and naughty grins. Like teenagers planning to get into some hot chicks knickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huelsdonk Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 wow, i really like all the responses and everyone getting their creative juices flowin. i was looking at it more from a jumping standpoint than rockcrawling i started looking at the suspension and was thinkin the place to start would be how to extend or fab a new lower suspension arm. then i read in another post about maybe using square tube to help extend the axles. but the top link being a strut makes it a little more tricky. maybe i could move the mount out a little kinda like when have to move them in when you put lift blocks on. instead you could move the strut mounts out and extend the lower arm the axle and the steering linkage. just a quick thought. but i gotta get an engine into the car before i start doing suspension so i am going to start working on this if anyone wants to help. i need an engine too if anyone k can help with that thanks for the input and lets keep it going. as soon as i start pics and a full write up will be posted for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogstar7055 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 If your talking about wooping thru the desert high speed I'd make wider stance lower A arms for the front with longer travel struts and solid rear axle with a four link suspension. It's definitely doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3eyedwagon Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Aluminum man, never underestimate Aluminum.... -Bill SSSSSSSSSHHH. Don't use the A word around here.... I had a few questions about people having any experience with 60 series extruded Aluminum for rectangular lift blocks a couple years back, and the stuff was treated in the same respect that all my ex-girlfriends treated parrallel parking. I'm with you though. I love aluminum, and think it is underused because of its' misperceived high costs, and "difficulty" to use it. I got a degree in boat building while in college though, just for S's n G's. It's just a different school of thought, and oddly similar tooling to wood working. I didn't even know it when I started college, but, I already had ALOT of the tools necessary to build boats.... I think most people just can't wrap their minds around it. Hit up Alaska Copper, and Brass when you get ready. They're my favorite supplier, and have free delivery along interstate corridors for orders over X ammount. And let me know when you start. I'll bring a chair, high freq TIG makes me nod off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwilson87 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 This is fun, when I get back in school in january I am going to try and start designing a pre-runner brat. Only problem I can see is it would only be rwd so that the front can have its totally awesome travel. There is my two cents, now the big boys can carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torxxx Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I have a few ideas on long travel but it would do away with the conventional CV axle setup. You use basically a drive line with u joints with extended slip yokes. you would have 8 inches of slip yoke in the middle of the driveshafts. You would have to go to a 4 link set up or custom control arms for this to work, but it could be done for way under 10-20k's. Look at what the 4wd version of prerunners use on the front. It would be similar to that. The slip yokes would take out the force that would rip an DOJ out of the cage. I need to draw up this stuff and see if it would work. On a EA series car you would have to completely remove the diff, mustache bar, rear X-member and plate the bottom of the car so you would have something to weld the new custom control arm brackets in to. Or you go solid axle with pivoting leaf spring shackles like they use on the High travel CJ-5's and CJ-7's. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE YOU JUST HAVE TO GET BAKED ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) I You use basically a drive line with u joints with extended slip yokes. you would have 8 inches of slip yoke in the middle of the driveshafts You can't do that on the front. u-joint's are NOT constant velocity. That means they have to be run at equal but opposite angles on either end of the shaft in order to cancel out the velocity changes that the joint experiences. You MUST use some form of constant velocity joint on the outboard end of the front axles or you won't be able to steer the car without severe and dangerous vibration. Or you go solid axle with pivoting leaf spring shackles like they use on the High travel CJ-5's and CJ-7's. That's pointless. Then it's not a Subaru anymore and you might as well USE the CJ5/7 in the first place. The whole reason the Subaru 4WD system is innovative and different is exactly because it was one of the first independant 4WD systems that was mass marketed and inexpensive. Take that away and you have a rather mundane example of Japanese engineering that's not nearly as refined as similar vintage products from Datsun/Nissan or Toyota. If I were going to put solid axles under a Japanese car I would rathe it be a Maxima or something. GD Edited November 13, 2009 by GeneralDisorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) I Agree with GD About This: ... Then it's not a Subaru anymore and you might as well USE the CJ5/7 in the first place. ... Because that was Exactly what I Thought when I Saw First This Subie: Yes, I Know that it Look Amazing, but Seeing that it only has the Body from a Subaru and the Rest is an Entire Different Vehicle... Well... ...I was So disappointed. I Really Respect Very Much Everyone's Ideas, but I Think that Using Other Vehicle's Engine, Drivetrain, Gearbox, Transfer Case and Suspension; makes the Subie to be Just the Other Vehicle Dressed like Subaru... it Gives the Feeling of a "Death Subaru Body Over Other Car's Soul" Kind Regards. Edited November 13, 2009 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niku-Sama Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 well with out changing the frame like that, which is a very holl billy thing to do here, you could probally figure out a way to swap to a solid axle with out modifying too much. since nissan/datsun share alot with subaru i'd suggest a H190 rear end or a Pathfinder rear end, both are solid, H190 is LSD out of a early 200SX, theres a LSD for the Pathfinder but i am not sure on the numbering on those Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedwagon Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I Agree with GD About This: Because that was Exactly what I Thought when I Saw First This Subie: Yes, I Know that it Look Amazing, but Seeing that it only has the Body from a Subaru and the Rest is an Entire Different Vehicle... Well... ...I was So disappointed. I Really Respect Very Much Everyone's Ideas, but I Think that Using Other Vehicle's Engine, Drivetrain, Gearbox, Transfer Case and Suspension; makes the Subie to be Just the Other Vehicle Dressed like Subaru... it Gives the Feeling of a "Death Subaru Body Over Other Car's Soul" Kind Regards. I don't see it as any different than the Jeep guys swapping in Ford axles under their rigs. You take the vehicle you like, and make it more suited to your needs, with the appropriate parts. If that happens to be a SA from a Ford or Toyota, so be it. I think it says something about Subaru's interior though, if someone is willing to put the rest of that under a Subaru, instead of a Heep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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