LuberJack Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I would try to tackle this more on my own, but I moved to Corvallis, and I believe I left my haynes manual up in Portland... So, here is the problem; The car (an 88 GL, 4wd) has recently been having a couple issues that I fear are head gasket related...when the car is first turned on in the morning, it usually runs super rough for a minute or so, and especially in the cold will blow some white smoke out the back. The engine also runs hot, and the oil pressure runs low...the temperature usually rides barely below the red, and the the oil pressure varies from day to day, but generally halfway between the bottom of the gauge and the middle line of the gauge. The only reason I haven't really addressed any of these issues is because the car still drives everywhere I need it to go with no real noticeable problems, and I am super short on money right now. What has spurred me towards a more immediate fix happened last night. I had been driving for about an hour, and when I stopped the car noticed steam coming from the engine bay, and a hissing sound that carries on for several minutes after the engine is off. I went into the store I had parked at and came back out, turned the car on and it drove fine. I drove it around a little more, it was still steaming a bit, but looked to be from coolant on top of the engine. Eventually as I drove, the engine changed sound getting worse and worse, and the coolant reserve tank was making lots of noise from water boiling inside of it I imagine. I got the car home and finally could look at it with a flashlight...on top of the engine there is puddle of coolant that grows as the engine runs, and steam that blows out in the same place. There are two parts I think it could be coming from, but I know pretty much nothing about engines and don't have my manual, so I'm not sure what they are...so I took these pictures.. The piece on the right is connected to the large tube running out of the radiator And this is just a picture taken from a distance for orientation One of these two parts is spraying out coolant when the engine gets warm, not much, but enough to steam up the engine...but when this is happening, the temperature gauge also climbs up into the red, and the coolant reserve boils up... I turned the car on today and there were no issues...though, I imagine if I drive it around long enough it will all start up again. So what are these parts, and what would you guys recommend as a fix? I have work Wednesday, about a 25 minute drive from my house, so if I can get it fixed by then, that would be ideal... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Classic head gasket or cracked head. May have started as a head gasket, but running that hot several times, your gonna have a cracked head. The heads crack at the exhaust port and it's deep enough to let coolant leak into the exhaust. or they crack between the valve seats and the coolant leaks into the chamber. Either way, if you like the car, find another engine and swap it out. Probably less time and effort to do that than a head gasket replacement jus tto find out the heads are toast too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Or you could replace the radiator, thermostat, intake gaskets hoping that it's the problem before you tear into the engine. You could remover the exhaust and see if coolant is coming out if the ports. Or, pull the spark plugs and see if they're wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Looks to me like a simple thermostat gasket failure. EA82 head gaskets don't generally leak externally when they blow. If you have coolant on top of the engine then it's 99% a leaking gasket/hose - intake manifold, thermostat housing, cracked hose, etc. And there's no reason to assume the heads are cracked - on a non-turbo that's very rare. Even after overheating they don't often crack. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Looks to me like a simple thermostat gasket failure. EA82 head gaskets don't generally leak externally when they blow. If you have coolant on top of the engine then it's 99% a leaking gasket/hose - intake manifold, thermostat housing, cracked hose, etc. And there's no reason to assume the heads are cracked - on a non-turbo that's very rare. Even after overheating they don't often crack. GD Where's the steam(white smoke) in the exhaust coming from? Every EA81 subaru I've owned has had head gasket or cracked head issues, two turbo, two non. I have an SPFI with that problem right now. If there was no "white smoke" or almost instant overheating, I'd say yeah, thermostat/gasket or intake gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 He said "steaming up the engine" - by which I can only assume he means that coolant is dripping or pouring out onto the block - the H20 in the coolant will flash off to steam on a hot engine block. The white in the exhaust when cold could be normal or it could indicate a blown manifold gasket or possibly a head gasket. Many times I've seen head gaskets diagnosed when the real failure was simply leaking manifold gaskets. As for head gasket issues - they are relatively common with the EA82's, but cracked heads (not the small cracks between valves - they all have those) are rare in non-turbo engines. The gaping cracks that go all the way into the cooling jacket are unusual. I've seen a lot of blown head gaskets and I've yet to come across a non-turbo head that was cracked into the cooling jacket. At any rate, his most immediate problem is the leak. I say fix the leak, which may have been causing it to not build cooling system pressure, and go from there. Chances are that he *may* have a head gasket issue. But it could easily just be a gasket leak too. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I'm guessing the gasket failed due to abnormally high water pressure and temperature. Could be head gaskets. Check the engine oil. Does it look normal (thin and black) or is it creamy coffee? If it looks OK then I wonder if there is an air lock in the cooling system or is the therostatic valve stuffed? Top up the water and run the engine with the heating on full and the radiator cap off. This should 'burp' the system of any air. You may have to do this a couple of times if there is indeed air in the system. If the engine is still overheating then I would turn my direction to the thermostatic valve or the water pump. The thermostatic valve is under the water pipe fitting in the picture (the one thats leaking). Unbolt the fitting (when the engine is cold) and pull out the valve. Remember which way up it goes because it only works that way. I'm not sure what it will look like if it is broken but someone will be able to tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Thermostat's rarely "look" bad. But about 85% of the time if you remove one it won't work when you put it back in. Just the nature of disrupting them it seems. I only buy mine from the dealer as they are much higher quality and seem to last almost indefinately if they aren't disturbed. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Thermostat's rarely "look" bad. But about 85% of the time if you remove one it won't work when you put it back in. Just the nature of disrupting them it seems. I only buy mine from the dealer as they are much higher quality and seem to last almost indefinately if they aren't disturbed. GD OK. Then run the engine without the thermostat and see if the temp still goes up. At least you can eliminate a possibility, even if you do have to get a new one regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) Ok, I though this was a serious bellow of white smoke, "when the car is first turned on in the morning, it usually runs super rough for a minute or so, and especially in the cold will blow some white smoke out the back" because that is exactly what my spfi is doing, and it needs headgaskets..... But it's just the normal condensation and a cold car. Either way, running it several times with the temp that high, and obviously low coolant, there's a high chance the headgaskets or heads are toast now. Edited November 18, 2009 by Frank B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quartus Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 The two parts you have circled are the temp gauge sensor (the left circle) and the thermostat gasket. Definately would change thermostat (OEM) & gasket and see if the sensor needs tightening before I did anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 If the previous owner, or mechanic used silicone instead of a gasket it can "blow out". Be sure to clean it up very well before installing the new gasket. There should be an arrow that points "to rad" on the thermostat. that arrow should be pointing up with the flow of coolant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 If the previous owner, or mechanic used silicone instead of a gasket it can "blow out". Be sure to clean it up very well before installing the new gasket. There should be an arrow that points "to rad" on the thermostat. that arrow should be pointing up with the flow of coolant. If it's done *right* with RTV, it shouldn't blow out. But then there aren't a lot of people that know how to use the stuff the *right* way. But it is called gasket maker for a reason. I've sealed plenty of EA water pumps with RTV and not a single leak. Same with valve cover's, oil pan gasket's, etc. RTV is great if you use it where and how it's designed to be used. Sadly few people prep the surfaces properly, or use the right amount. It can't be used around gasoline, and it shouldn't be used around small oil passages as it can break off and clog small passages or lifters. There are types of RTV that are safe for these situations but they aren't just the common stuff you get at the parts store. 3-Bond makes some that we used around small oil passages and was safe for this purpose according to the manufacturer of the equipment (RTV was specifically disallowed because of this very reason). If you get an OEM thermostat it can only fit one way in the housing. The cover/upper radiator hose nipple doesn't have enough space inside to accomidate the thermostat the wrong direction. That goes for EJ's as well. The aftermarket unit's are always smaller and cheaper and there's a possibility they might fit upside down in the housing..... I haven't tried so I don't know. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcap Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 If it's done *right* with RTV, it shouldn't blow out. But then there aren't a lot of people that know how to use the stuff the *right* way. But it is called gasket maker for a reason. I've sealed plenty of EA water pumps with RTV and not a single leak. Same with valve cover's, oil pan gasket's, etc. RTV is great if you use it where and how it's designed to be used. Sadly few people prep the surfaces properly, or use the right amount. It can't be used around gasoline, and it shouldn't be used around small oil passages as it can break off and clog small passages or lifters. There are types of RTV that are safe for these situations but they aren't just the common stuff you get at the parts store. 3-Bond makes some that we used around small oil passages and was safe for this purpose according to the manufacturer of the equipment (RTV was specifically disallowed because of this very reason). If you get an OEM thermostat it can only fit one way in the housing. The cover/upper radiator hose nipple doesn't have enough space inside to accomidate the thermostat the wrong direction. That goes for EJ's as well. The aftermarket unit's are always smaller and cheaper and there's a possibility they might fit upside down in the housing..... I haven't tried so I don't know. GD The crappy aftermarket parts-house thermostats WILL fit upside down. When I replaced the thermo in my coupe with an OEM one, the little non-functioning Stant unit in there was upside down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuberJack Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Ok, thanks for everything so far guys! Though I fear there may be a bigger issue at hand, money and time as they are I'm going to start by poking around the temp gauge and the thermostat gasket. So General Disorder, would you recommend if I am opening up the thermostat housing and and removing the thermostat to put in a new gasket, should a just opt for a new t-stat too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuberJack Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Actually, scratch that last question... I opened up the thermostat cover and found myself an interesting surprise... It would appear...unless I'm very confused about something...that my engine does not have a thermostat in it...and in fact, hasn't since I purchased the car nearly three years ago... Alllllllright...off to the dealership to get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breeke Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Put a new thermostat there man. They are cheap like 10 bucks, and get a gasket while your there. RTV is great, but as GD says you have to use the right amount or you'll be F-ed.. You'll be into the fix for like 15 bucks and about 20 mins of work...well not work, but busyness. (that can't be a word) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breeke Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Actually, scratch that last question... I opened up the thermostat cover and found myself an interesting surprise... It would appear...unless I'm very confused about something...that my engine does not have a thermostat in it...and in fact, hasn't since I purchased the car nearly three years ago... Alllllllright...off to the dealership to get one. I just saw that! did you ever have heat from your heater? You're car should not get hot without a thermostat. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Don't forget to 'Burp' the system once its all back together again or she will overheat for sure. Have you checked the condition of the engine oil yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 BTW, if it is a head gasket issue you may well find that the coolant errupts from the radiator when the cap is off. But for heavens sake DON'T try this when the engine is hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Go to the dealer and get both the thermostat and the gasket. It will be about $17 for both. The dealer gasket is much better than the cheap cardboard one's you get at a parts store. It's important to fill the coolant with the nose in the air, and to massage the radiator hoses as you fill to eliminate bubbles. Start the engine and run it for a minute with the cap off then shut it off and repeat. Make SURE you have all the air out or the coolant will not circulate and it will overheat. I fear that since it had no thermostat, you have a bigger issue here. Perhaps a clogged radiator. When you get it running again without any leaks - check the temp of the radiator at various places along the surface. It should be hot on the thermostat side (195 degree's) and ~20 degree's cooler on the water pump side. Check the temp with a laser gun if you can - often the dash gauges are not at all accurate. On my Brat for example - the dash gauge reads very near the red when the radiator fan kicks on, but my DMM thermo-couple, laser gun, and fan thermo-switch are all telling me the temp is just fine.... If there is for sure no air in the system, the whole radiator is hot, thermostat wide open.... then we can begin to look for other causes to your problem. Obviously someone had a history with this thing and there always the possibility that your manifold gaskets are bad. Try to get a look at them and see if they are sqeezing out from under the manifold where it bolts to the head or if there is any dampness to them. That would be a good indicator of failure and probable leaking into the intake runner's. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuberJack Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 The oil is fine, and yes, the heater blows warm, but the car needs to be driving for 10 minutes or so before it does. Just picked up the parts I need, hopefully I can have it all back together before work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Right on. If you get back up to this area before you get it entirely fixed, drop on by and I'll give you my 10 minute opinion. I could tell a lot more if I could see it in person. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 Usually that's a "lazy fix" when there's other problems are causing the car to run hot. Usually it all atarts with a rotten radiator. Take a look at the bottom few rows and down inside if you can. A new one is about $100 anymore. One row rad will be fine. Or head gasket/cracked head failure putting super hot exhaust gasses into the coolant creating too much heat in the cooling system for it to handle. Is there any corrosion around the housing? Or does it look like just a bad seal by the gasket. When you get a thermostat, get a lever vent rad cap too. Once you get it all back together, and all the air bleed out, start it up and let it run for just a few minutes then pull that lever. If you get a rush of pressure up into the overflow tank every time you do it, there's gasses getting into the system. A good way to bleed all the air out after you drain the old out, is to pop off a heater hose and point it up, while you fill the rad, the air will come out of the hose, just stop when the coolant atarts to come out of it and put it back together. Start it up and watch the temp guage. If it gets too hot turn it off and let it cool off before starting it up again, or just pop that lever cap when it gets hot to vent the pressure, either one should clear any air bubbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuberJack Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Well, got it all together and drove it around town. It's drivin like a champ, I think it appreciates having a thermostat in there. Thanks for the help, and GD, next time I'm up I might come by to give it all a look through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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