pickn4him Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I'm doing the rear oil separator plate on my 04 Outback sedan. I plan to replace the rear main seal while I'm there and have uncovered the fact that the replacement can give trouble. Is this true or does it have to do with HOW it is replaced? I have a Subie seal, not an aftermarket. My cousin, who is an experienced mechanic, says to pack the back of the seal with grease to keep the spring from coming out. I plan to lube it up so that it goes over the crank smoothly. The engne will be out also so getting access to it will be no problem. help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torxxx Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 My cousin, who is an experienced mechanic, says to pack the back of the seal with grease to keep the spring from coming out. I plan to lube it up so that it goes over the crank smoothly. The engne will be out also so getting access to it will be no problem. help! How else were you planning on doing the seal? The engine HAS to come out to do the seal well either that or the tranny. I recommend the engine since its easier to do if u dont have a lift. There is no real trick to doing the seal main seal on these engines. They are a one piece seal. I've never packed the back of the seal to keep the spring in place. If its a new seal, the spring isnt goign anywhere unless you start picking at it. A subaru factory seal has grease pre-applied to the inner part of the seal so its lubed for sliding over the crank. pop out your old seal with a screwdriver (make sure you dont score or gouge the seal seat on the engine) clean the seal seat out with a papertowel. I dont use a seal inserter set thingymabobber when I put my seals in. I just use a 3/8" socket extension. start the seal evenly all the way around, and tap it into place with a hammer. when the seal gets most of the way in, use the socket extension to seat it the rest of the way in. When its flush or slightly in past flush its in the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Some people recommend using a very small amount of RTV or anaerobic sealer around the outer edge of the seal to help prevent leaks between the seal and the block. I like to use a piece of PVC pipe or a block of wood to drive new seals in. Then I can smack it with a mini sledge and get it seated with just a few hits. Makes it easier than trying to tap around the edge a little at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Don't bother. They almost never fail unless someone has screwed with them. I just pulled an engine from a '90 Legacy with 255k - orginal clutch. The rear main looked new without evidence of any leakage. The seperator plate looked fine too. I left them be. If you do replace it, just coat the outer edge with 248 loctite (blue glue stick). Coat the lip with grease if it's not already. GD Edited November 19, 2009 by GeneralDisorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldfusion21 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I to wanted to replace it on my 245k legacy 2.2 but these guys convinced me not to. No evidence of any leakage so i just left it. unless pulling the engine is easy for you i wouldn't wanna get it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 You'd be creating comparatively tremendous odds of a problem that you didn't have before (a leaking rear main). The only ones I've had to replace had already been replaced one time. Perhaps 5% of the Subaru's that I've done. I leave them alone. Do the baffle plate and call it a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Well, thanks for the input. I may be leaning toward NOT doing it, given the amount of nays vs. yays, especially if there's no signs of leakage. But I will keep the new seal, for a while. I'm fairly sure the separator plate is toast without looking at it. I sure wish Subaru would make it a recall and reimburse us DIY guys. I would be happier with Subaru as a car company. The motor is coming out today, Good Lord willing, and I will prep the block for the new plate that should arrive Monday. Thanks again everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) i've mentioned this before as well. glad you started a thread, might be a good reference for others or to link to later. Don't bother. They almost never fail unless someone has screwed with them. You'd be creating comparatively tremendous odds of a problem that you didn't have before (a leaking rear main). The only ones I've had to replace had already been replaced one time. Perhaps 5% of the Subaru's that I've done. I leave them alone. Do the baffle plate and call it a day. I would keep in mind that myself, GD, and Davebugs have no idea how many Subaru engines we've pulled, replaced, and swapped, easily 3 digits worth between all of us combined. We are suggesting this for very specific reasons, not just bantering. there's a high percentage of repeat failures (i haven't had one yet but i quit replacing them years ago), and the failures i'm aware of are from very highly skilled people who have done custom subaru motors swaps, used subaru parts, etc. not just your average guy tackling his first clutch job. this also coming from guys - that always replace all seals we can get to - like crank, cams, oil pump, whenever we do a timing belt job. but the rear main is kind of a different beast, i've always wondered why? Edited November 19, 2009 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Check that the plate is actually leaking before you replace it. The one's with the most problem's are the '95/'96 seperators that were plastic and were prone to cracking. The one's made prior to these years and after these years are not nearly as problematic. I think very often there is a tendancy to blame the seperator plate for a large oil leak that's actually from somewhere else. If you do replace it, use the RTV *sparingly*. There's no need for more than a 1/16" bead. I generally just squeeze the RTV out on my finger and then make a nice even, flat layer on all the surfaces. Just thick enough that you can't see through it. You don't need a lot - it will just get squeezed out and then you have potential for peices of RTV breaking off and clogging oil passages, etc. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I generally just squeeze the RTV out on my finger that's illegal in california isnt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svxpert Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 << Some people recommend using a very small amount of RTV or anaerobic sealer around the outer edge of the seal to help prevent leaks between the seal and the block. >> subaru doesn't recommend it either do I. that seal is just that, a seal. you dont mix sealant with gaskets. thats when you will get a leak. <<this also coming from guys - that always replace all seals we can get to - like crank, cams, oil pump, whenever we do a timing belt job. but the rear main is kind of a different beast, i've always wondered why? >> when i reseal an engine that has been taken out of the vehicle, i always do the rear main. yeah, it may be overkill, but when i deliver it to the person i can tell them with confidence i have done a complete job. i guess you need to see how there put in to gain the experience to do it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 subaru doesn't recommend it either do I. that seal is just that, a seal. you dont mix sealant with gaskets. thats when you will get a leak. There are lots of applications that lip seals call for a retaining compound on the OD of the seal. I do it to insure that when I set the seal evenly in the bore it's not going to move. It's probably overkill. I haven't had one leak on me yet but I don't touch them if they aren't leaking. My experience has been that they nearly always last the life of the engine so why bother? I always replace them on EA's - those are prone to failure occasionally. I've yet to see a failed OEM seal. I've seen a few failures but one was obviously not the OEM seal and another had an off-brand clutch - couldn't determine for sure that it wasn't the OEM seal but that's what I suspect being it had a bunch of cheap aftermarket parts on it. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickn4him Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Well, I have some news and it is good initially....hopefully later as well. I found that my engine had the cast aluminum separator plate and not the plastic one. WOO HOO!!! I was expecting the plastic one, so that was a blessing! So the 2004 oil separators are the good cast aluminum ones. It appeared to have been leaking somewhat, although the rear main had some seepage spots on the opposite side from the separator plate and some moist oil on the lower edge. Hmmmm! SO, I cancelled the order for the new plate that I now didn't need. Then I removed the plate, took some steel wool and buffed off the old sealant from the plate and mating surface, cleaned both with brake cleaner and resealed with a small thin bead of grey acid free sealant for import engines. As for the rear main, I felt like that it had been leaking a little from what I saw on the opposite side from the plate and lower area around the seal. So I felt I had no choice but to replace it. I carefully and gingerly coaxed it out with a seal puller. Then using a small rubber mallet, tapped the new one just as carefully into place a little at a time on each side. I noticed that the seal had an arrow on the face with the usual numbers, which I imagine is a rotational direction arrow for the shaft being sealed. It matched the original one and I even tried to put it in the same place as the one that came out. I don't think it would matter but it may be just me being a little OCD on my part. Anyway, thanks again to everyone for your input. Hope it can help someone else in a similar dilemma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Yep - only '95/'96.... maybe some '97's have the plastic seperator. They realized what a bad idea it was and switched back to the aluminium. The NEW replacement one's are even better as they are stamped steel. I have pulled quite a few 90 through 94 EJ22's and never seen one of the old aluminium seperators leak. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torxxx Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 DO NOT PUT RTV ON ANY CAM OR CRANK SEALS chances are you will put too much and take a big chance at plugging up the oil port behind the seal. I just took apart a EJ25D today that had this done to the cam seals. 3 out of the 8 oil ports were plugged solid with the RTV, not to mention the pickup screen in the oil sump was covered in blue RTV. seals are meant to go in dry, if they werent, they'd have instructions in the box with teh seal saying put stuff on the outer edge of the seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldfusion21 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Just because some people don't know (or care) how much sealant to use doesn't means it a bad idea for the rest of us. I always use a super thin layer on any seal i replace. Not to mention you would have to be stupid to get it *behind* the seal as the act of installation pretty much removes any excess. good luck with your seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 DO NOT PUT RTV ON ANY CAM OR CRANK SEALS chances are you will put too much and take a big chance at plugging up the oil port behind the seal. I just took apart a EJ25D today that had this done to the cam seals. 3 out of the 8 oil ports were plugged solid with the RTV, not to mention the pickup screen in the oil sump was covered in blue RTV. seals are meant to go in dry, if they werent, they'd have instructions in the box with teh seal saying put stuff on the outer edge of the seal. Well, if you glob the hell out of it you deserve to have it clog up the oil passages! It ain't that hard to smear a thin film of it on the outside of the seal before you pop it in. Any excess will get taken of by the front edge of the bore as the seal slides in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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