Major Lazy Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) 97 imp 2.2 auto 170k with about 10k on new plugs, wires and fuel filter. With no warning the CEL came on and she was idling rough. We stopped because we were at Chuck E. Cheese, our destination (not as bad as it sounds) and so i just shut it down for a couple of hours. I came out and started it and it started and ran fine with CEL on so I drove it home (except it did die at idle 2 times at lights). While moving it ran just fine except that little light was still on. So I stopped at Autozone to get the code read: P0103 1-Large vacuum leak 2-Air duct hose damaged 3-engine mechanical condition 4-Faulty MAF/VAF sensor After the code was done being read I talked to the guy for a while, and when I went to leave the car would not start. So I had it towed home (yay AAA) and here I just cleaned the MAF and looked for vacuum leaks and broken intake stuff but it has the same condition. It starts and runs fine for about 3 sec then idles down and dies. Can I safely say it is time to buy a MAF? Edited November 24, 2009 by Major Lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 My list says "P0103=Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor circuit high input." Not sure exactly what that means. When did you clean the MAF, before the problem happened or after the car was towed home? You cleaned it very carefully and gently I hope! Did you unplug the connector and check it/clean it? The rough idle sounds more like an IACV problem--you might try cleaning it. Maybe replace the PCV valve and clean connecting hoses. And generally check vacuum hoses and connections, air tubes too. I'd try these things before replacing the MAF. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) After the car was towed. I sprayed the sensor with the little straw on per the directions on the can (CRC cleaner) which says to spray it 10-15 times w/ the straw on. I sprayed right onto the little wafer thing pretty good but was at least 6" from it. I never came close to touching the sensor, i never actually took it out from the 2 connector ducts so there would be less chance of damaging it. I also took the connector off (after disconnecting the battery) and cleaned it with the same cleaner. Also the AT oil temp light is flashing which is obviously trying to tell me something. Edited November 24, 2009 by Major Lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Well, sounds like you were properly careful with the cleaner! Did you spray the fine up and down wires too? Did you clear the CEL codes after they checked for you? Did they come back? I don't know much about automatics but the flashing oil temp light concerns me. (Someone help us here!) Wonder if it's telling you that there's a problem with the alternator. Battery okay? Any electrical problems? Enough charge to crank the engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 MAF's fail so rarely that buying a new one is pointless. Buy a used one, I wouldnt' pay more than $25 because I know yards can't sell them (no demand). Someone on here probably has one too, just post in parts wanted forum. As to whether that's your issue, i dont' know. What exactly happened - the code just appeared one day, you've always had it, you had the code but it drove fine, or it drove poorly immediately after getting the code - any major work done in the past year...details helps when we can't see the car. Yes - your automatic transmission light flashing means the computer has a stored code, in the same way your engine has a stored code (check engine light). There's a chance they are related so it would be nice to read the trans code. The process for extracting that code has been posted before here, it is goofy but you can do it yourself. In general - fix the engine first, then the trans light will likely go away if it's related to the same problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Grossary, The CEL came on with no warning, one minute no CEL, then CEL came on at hwy speed, but the car ran fine (I thought it was a loose gas cap which is the only other time the CEL has come on in this car). Then when I stopped the car it idled badly. Then it stopped running. I think ill try to get a MAF, if I can find one for $25 ill be happy, Autozone quoted me $275. Shoot I already spent $7 on cleaner. The car runs just fine, makes no odd noises but dies after a few secs. Is there any chance of some other issue causing this code? I'll work on a new MAF and let you know if it fixes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Yes there are other possibilities. Hard to say definitively, but if you have the code that's a really good place to start. And for only $25 it's worth a shot. Like I said, I was right on the money: $25 in Enumclaw: 1-360-825-1643 or 1-800-720-4599 in Shelton With all the WA members on here, I know for a fact someone has this if you want to post in parts wanted forum. Good luck. Check all your vacuum hoses too though - squirt starting fluid/carb spray around the engine bay while trying to start (when you have a no start) and if it starts you know you have a vacuum leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 Woot! Used MAF at Campbell Nelson in Arlington for $60 (yea its more than 25 but I have it NOW) solved the problem, no light and runs like it ever did. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 So it really was the MAF! That's great that you got it fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) Help! I'm stumped and my wife wants to buy a new car and I do not need a payment! So, the car ran just fine for 3 days on the used MAF with no problems at all. THEN CEL lit and ran rough for a few secs then cleared up & ran fine, with the CEL still lit. Code read: P0102 Mass air flow sensor circuit low input Car ran fine at this point so i cleared the code and after a day of driving CEL lit again and would not idle at all. Code read: P0103 Mass air flow sensor circuit high input Now it (usually) starts fine and runs for a few secs then dies. If i let is sit a while sometimes it will start and run fine but i do not want to drive it anywhere to see for how long. Yes - your automatic transmission light flashing means the computer has a stored code, in the same way your engine has a stored code (check engine light). There's a chance they are related so it would be nice to read the trans code. The process for extracting that code has been posted before here, it is goofy but you can do it yourself. In general - fix the engine first, then the trans light will likely go away if it's related to the same problem. Grossgary, I did not read the trans code (not sure yet how), it went away with the problem and now it has reappeared. Does anyone have any idea what else might be causing this? Thanks in advance Edited December 3, 2009 by Major Lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 your "new" sensor is borked? sounds unlikely. are you using an aftermarket air filter? have you replaced the airfilter recently and made sure all the fittings an the box is tight? should be, doubtful this code would just reappear again. trans code must be related since it went away during the first "fix". pull the maf connector and make sure none of the pins in the connectors are bent or corroded. in rare cases the wiring right at the connector could be shorting out - to test those you kind of wiggle the wiring just behind the connector around while the engine is running or trying to start. changes in rythym with moving the wires between your fingers indicate a short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) are you using an aftermarket air filter? have you replaced the airfilter recently and made sure all the fittings an the box is tight? I use cheapo fram filters, this one is pretty dang good. I always have issues putting the filter on though because the rubber has to be pushed in good before putting the lid on. yea, I have checked the filter box and it is as good as it ever was. Also I do not suspect that because i changed the filter about 10k ago and this is the first hint of a problem since then. pull the maf connector and make sure none of the pins in the connectors are bent or corroded. I have done that several times. The first time right after the problem manifested itself and since then I have cleaned them again with a little piece of emery cloth then cleaned them with carb cleaner and blew them out with some air. They look uniform and clean. in rare cases the wiring right at the connector could be shorting out - to test those you kind of wiggle the wiring just behind the connector around while the engine is running or trying to start. changes in rythym with moving the wires between your fingers indicate a short. I have done that but its tough to hear any difference when I am wiggling because the car either runs great or won't run at all for long. Do you think it would short out INSIDE the connector? behind the connector the wires are visible and well insulated. Thx for the help. as an aside, I keep wondering how the airbox improperly sealed could cause a MAF error. The entire volume of intake air is still flowing past the sensor, it seems there would be no difference to the sensor what was in front of the intake duct. But thats just me thinkin'. Perhaps the MAF is tuned to exactly the flow patterns with the box installed so that with a leaking or mis aligned air box it cannot read correctly? Edited December 3, 2009 by Major Lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 i would pull out the FSM and go through the procedures it recommends for this code. pretty sure someone that works at a dealer mentioned that on here, so i don't think they were making it up. never seen it happen, only heard that it can - loose air box triggering a code. yes the wire can go bad inside the insulated/taped up portions as well. i've never seen a connector go bad (with the exception of corrossion obviously) but i have seen bad wiring. not sure what causes it. by aftermarket - i was wondering if you had any of those oil impregnated filters as the oil can contaminate the sensors, but you don't so that's a no go. wonder what would happen if you put the old sensor back in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 (edited) i would pull out the FSM and go through the procedures it recommends for this code. pretty sure someone that works at a dealer mentioned that on here, so i don't think they were making it up. looked but could not find that ref. Anyone have a no cost 97 fsm? Actually I could go to the library huh. Oh and i threw out the old maf, after replacing it I was so sure it was fixed and the old was bad. Edited December 4, 2009 by Major Lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 Holy cow So with no fsm I threw my hands up and took it to the shop. They tested the MAF output and said it was intermittently bad. As far as I am concerned that was $100 well spent if its true. Tomorrow I will take back the used MAF, install the replacement and post the results if for no other reason than that there is a chance that some poor guy 3 years from now has the same problem and realize that yes indeed the MAF can go bad...and the one you get to replace it can be bad also, but not show itself to be bad until 3 days of happy driving have passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Lazy Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 (edited) I replaced the used MAF with another used one from the same place. one day so far no probs. If you dont see any more posts here then I had the rare experience of having the MAF go bad then buying a bad used one. Just want everyone to know that just cuz its rare doesn't mean you should not consider it! Edited December 6, 2009 by Major Lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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