TBS-(exist for subarus?)

[hardtail_pride]

TBS- Throttle body spacer. My brother has been boasting of the extra power he has with this new spacer. His 85 jeep scrambler doesn't bog down on hills under load as much anymore. Just curious if anyone has made/ thought about fabbing one up for our EA cars.

 

From my understanding, this spacer allows a lille more room or something to that effect so that the air can enter the injection system more uniformly. Correct me if im wrong. And please let me know your thoughts!

[pwjm]

Spacers are a gimmicky area.

 

In some cases they truly do work.

In others it's completely in your head.

And almost always, the swirls don't make a single bit of difference.

 

I'm not an engineer or anything, but I've heard that on certain setups they can effect the velocity at which the air charge enters the head... Or rather, it increases the runner length of your intake. Many cars benefit in the low end from longer intake runners. Just look at the ones on the 240sx motors.

 

seen here on the left of the engine bay.

 

It's got something to do with how the air keeps its velocity between intake pulses.

[GeneralDisorder]

The 5% change in distance from the injector to the intake valve will do virtually nothing. On throttle body injected vehicles the notion is that adding distance will cool the charge (as most throttle body's are heated), and will improve the mixing of the air and fuel (more time for the fuel to propery atomize into the air). But the "spacer's" aren't large enough to effect a dramatic change.

 

One thing to consider is that some of these spacer's may be helping due to dirty injectors with poor spray patterns. Give it a little extra time to atomize and a poorly fireing injector might improve a bit.

 

Cheesy is the proper word for this stuff.

 

Now Phenolic spacers that are designed to prevent heating of the TB might actually help a tiny bit. Again probably not even noticeable without supporting mods but they are relatively cheap and might net 2 or 3 HP on a 250 HP turbo-charged engine - these types of mods are for the dyno junkies that care more about beating their friends on a chart than how worthwhile the mod actually is.

 

GD

[3eyedwagon]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but, throttle body spacers, and the idea of stack charging is not a gimmick. It is a long time tested, and proven method, and while it holds more validity on carbureted vehicle; the ideas are still proven to work well with throttle bodies. Any time you allow more room/distance/time for the fuel to atomize, you are going to change the HP, and torque curve. The most important thing to realize is that not all motors will react the same, or need the same things.

 

While this may seem a moot point when dealing with the low HP numbers that these TBI 4 cylinders are putting out; that doesn't mean you should discount the value of stack charging "gimmicks" completely. The fact is that you need to look at the motor it is on, and WHY it may be effecting the performance. I have no doubt that the Jeep the OP speaks of was noticeably improved by throttle body spacing. Motors like the EJ22 with it's already long intake runners, I could see why you'd say boo hiss. But there are alot more motors in the world than the EJ22. Most torque curved motors benefit greatly from stack charging., especially those with shorter intake runners, like I-6s and narrow degree V motors.

 

I have had TB spacers on nearly all of my early TBI LO5 v8s, and I can tell you from thousands of miles of real world experience; the gas mileage savings alone has payed them off. That's not to mention the combined improvements from additional mods.

 

P.S.

 

Tell the early Hot Rod innovators affectionately known as "The Ramchargers" that spacers don't work. They'd laugh your butt's off the dragstrip. They seemed to do ok with it on their ride, and all the money they made that year was pretty "real world"

[TheLoyale]

Interesting read..

 

-Tom

[GeneralDisorder]

Were not talking about 18" of stack charge here - were talking about a silly spacer that's like a few inches thick. The EA and EJ intake runners are already like 14" long. Adding another couple isn't going to make any difference to speak of.

 

GD

[hardtail_pride]

For reals good read. Thanks for the input. Happy to bring up the question so others can learn with me.

[3eyedwagon]

Were not talking about 18" of stack charge here - were talking about a silly spacer that's like a few inches thick. The EA and EJ intake runners are already like 14" long. Adding another couple isn't going to make any difference to speak of.

 

GD

 

 

While this may seem a moot point when dealing with the low HP numbers that these TBI 4 cylinders are putting out; that doesn't mean you should discount the value of stack charging "gimmicks" completely. The fact is that you need to look at the motor it is on, and WHY it may be effecting the performance. I have no doubt that the Jeep the OP speaks of was noticeably improved by throttle body spacing. Motors like the EJ22 with it's already long intake runners, I could see why you'd say boo hiss. But there are alot more motors in the world than the EJ22. Most torque curved motors benefit greatly from stack charging., especially those with shorter intake runners, like I-6s and narrow degree V motors.

 

That sounds like exactly what I said.

 

My point was that just because it doesn't work for you or the motors you prefer; that doesn't make it "cheesy" or a "gimmick", and thusly it shouldn't be dismissed as such. While the EJs may benefit from the 14" intake runners, alot of the motors I spoke of don't. A 1" spacer (which most of these are for the convenience of not having to mess with fuel lines, or throttle cables) placed on a motor with 8" of intake runner is a big difference. That makes these TB spacers a good upgrade, FOR THE CORRECT MOTORS.

 

So, I know you're gonna say: "We aren't talking about other motors. We're talking about EJs", and I'm gonna say. Cool. But maybe instead of discounting cheap, efficient throttle body spacers completely we should explain WHY they work on some motors, and not others. Who knows, some of these fools just might buy one of those silly American made cars one of these days. Damn them and their short intake runners....

[Numbchux]

^we're not talking about EJs. as they're commonly available for EJs, and dyno graphs to prove the difference are just as easy to come by. I had one on the 2.2 in my wagon. I intend to run it AND phenolic spacers on my supercharged motor.

 

 

a spacer's effect definitely does differ from one engine to the other. some engine love having really short intake runners (ITBs), EJ subies seem to be among those that benefit (well...for those of us that like some down-low grunt) from some extra volume between the TB valve and combustion chamber. I have not heard of it done on an EA82. but it's a fairly simple thing. and it can't hurt.

 

I say do it!

[Ginger48]

Any time you allow more room/distance/time for the fuel to atomize, you are going to change the HP, and torque curve.

 

If you want the ultimate fuel atomization, install a propane or natural gas fuel system. You'll experience MUCH less power.

[zukiru]

^we're not talking about EJs. as they're commonly available for EJs, and dyno graphs to prove the difference are just as easy to come by. I had one on the 2.2 in my wagon. I intend to run it AND phenolic spacers on my supercharged motor.

 

 

a spacer's effect definitely does differ from one engine to the other. some engine love having really short intake runners (ITBs), EJ subies seem to be among those that benefit (well...for those of us that like some down-low grunt) from some extra volume between the TB valve and combustion chamber. I have not heard of it done on an EA82. but it's a fairly simple thing. and it can't hurt.

 

I say do it!

 

it's a lot of effort for an Ea motor considering nobody already makes one.

 

 

 

since we do have a coolant filled intake a phenolic spacer might be worth something... it's a TBi ? right? so be careful you don't hit the hood.

 

going to mpfi and a spider intake would net you HP and better fuel comsumption. (buy you'd have work swapping an EJ)

Edited November 29, 2009 by zukiru

[Qman]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but, throttle body spacers, and the idea of stack charging is not a gimmick. It is a long time tested, and proven method, and while it holds more validity on carbureted vehicle; the ideas are still proven to work well with throttle bodies. Any time you allow more room/distance/time for the fuel to atomize, you are going to change the HP, and torque curve. The most important thing to realize is that not all motors will react the same, or need the same things.

 

While this may seem a moot point when dealing with the low HP numbers that these TBI 4 cylinders are putting out; that doesn't mean you should discount the value of stack charging "gimmicks" completely. The fact is that you need to look at the motor it is on, and WHY it may be effecting the performance. I have no doubt that the Jeep the OP speaks of was noticeably improved by throttle body spacing. Motors like the EJ22 with it's already long intake runners, I could see why you'd say boo hiss. But there are alot more motors in the world than the EJ22. Most torque curved motors benefit greatly from stack charging., especially those with shorter intake runners, like I-6s and narrow degree V motors.

 

I have had TB spacers on nearly all of my early TBI LO5 v8s, and I can tell you from thousands of miles of real world experience; the gas mileage savings alone has payed them off. That's not to mention the combined improvements from additional mods.

 

P.S.

 

Tell the early Hot Rod innovators affectionately known as "The Ramchargers" that spacers don't work. They'd laugh your butt's off the dragstrip. They seemed to do ok with it on their ride, and all the money they made that year was pretty "real world"

 

We finally agree about something!!

 

Seriously, there is hard proof that TB spacers work as well as intake spacers. Opinions without actual knowledge of something is just that, an opinion.

 

TB spacers, intakes spacers, even the tornado(true gimmick) work to improve power and mileage. I have witnessed dyno runs with these added have true improvement. Even an electric leaf blower will add power.

 

The idea behind a TB spacer is used for slightly lengthening the runner prior to the intake runner. It is designed to improve torque. Intake spacers lower intake temps which is ideal for getting a denser charge. All of these will improve power.

[Qman]

Were not talking about 18" of stack charge here - were talking about a silly spacer that's like a few inches thick. The EA and EJ intake runners are already like 14" long. Adding another couple isn't going to make any difference to speak of.

 

GD

 

Simply stating, Rick, you are wrong this time. Read up some more and you may find the "right" info!

[Numbchux]

it's a lot of effort for an Ea motor considering nobody already makes one.

 

I helped a buddy make one for an EJ. it's not difficult. get a chunk of steel or aluminum the thickness you want. grab a drill and a dremel, and go to town. then grab some longer bolts and you're set. yea, the one I have is pre-made...but they're not a complicated piece.

[GeneralDisorder]

What kind of gains are we talking about for say an EJ22? I would like to see this 1" spacer make enough of a difference that it's worth the time to install it.

 

Anyone seen this on a dyno and can provide some idea of what it would do to the HP or torque curves? Anyone got links to dyno charts showing before/after?

 

On a 90 HP EA82 what's this good for then?

 

It just seems like 1" couldn't help enough to warrant the work of creating and installing it.

 

Also - if anything, it's not gong to work for EJ's as they are port injected. The spacer isn't going to work on air alone - this is a carb or throtte body inejction type of mod as there has to be fuel/air mix going through the spacer to cool the charge and increase the atomization.....

 

GD

Edited November 29, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[Qman]

What kind of gains are we talking about for say an EJ22? I would like to see this 1" spacer make enough of a difference that it's worth the time to install it.

 

Anyone seen this on a dyno and can provide some idea of what it would do to the HP or torque curves? Anyone got links to dyno charts showing before/after?

 

On a 90 HP EA82 what's this good for then?

 

It just seems like 1" couldn't help enough to warrant the work of creating and installing it.

 

Also - if anything, it's not gong to work for EJ's as they are port injected. The spacer isn't going to work on air alone - this is a carb or throtte body inejction type of mod as there has to be fuel/air mix going through the spacer to cool the charge and increase the atomization.....

 

GD

 

It takes 10 minutes to install. Any gains make it worthwhile.

 

Air temps are lower therefore making the charge temps lower. The TB spacer is for extra velocity. The intake spacers are for lower intake temps.

 

It seems your fan club is going to your head Rick. You used to research a lot more than this in the past!!

 

And yes, I have seen this on the dyno. It is a small gain by itself. When coupled with other mods it makes a significant difference.

[GeneralDisorder]

Air temps are lower therefore making the charge temps lower. The TB spacer is for extra velocity. The intake spacers are for lower intake temps.

 

How does it lower intake temps? The air comming into the intake at the point of the spacer (throttle body) is going to depend on where you get the air.... there's no intercooler.

 

Phenolic intake spacers i can see - that isolates the intake from the hot cylinder head. No objection there except on EA's that's pretty wasted being the intake flows coolant as well.

 

It seems your fan club is going to your head Rick. You used to research a lot more than this in the past!!

 

I looked into it - most of what I've seen says they do nothing at all. Most dyno runs show zilch as well. The folks on forums discussing cars with decent sized engines (V6 trucks, Mustang's, etc) all agree they are, in large measure, bunk.

 

And yes, I have seen this on the dyno. It is a small gain by itself. When coupled with other mods it makes a significant difference.

 

Define "small gain by itself". What are we talking here? And what other mods make them useful and why?

 

I'm looking for a *reason* why these work. So far I haven't found a good theory nor any real proof that they do anything more than lighten your wallet.

 

As I said on a true throttle body application or on a carb application where there is fuel/air mix going through the spacer there might be some validity but if you are just pumping air through the thing - how is a spacer any different than attaching say....... a hose from a shop vac and sticking it in the trunk?

 

GD

[Qman]

How does it lower intake temps? The air comming into the intake at the point of the spacer (throttle body) is going to depend on where you get the air.... there's no intercooler.

 

TB spacer does not lower temps. It increases velocity!

 

Phenolic intake spacers i can see - that isolates the intake from the hot cylinder head. No objection there except on EA's that's pretty wasted being the intake flows coolant as well.

 

Intake spacers(phenolic) lowers intake temps by spacing the intake away from the head. Hence, lowering intake temps. Significantly in most cases. I am talking up to 50' in some cases.

 

 

 

I looked into it - most of what I've seen says they do nothing at all. Most dyno runs show zilch as well. The folks on forums discussing cars with decent sized engines (V6 trucks, Mustang's, etc) all agree they are, in large measure, bunk.

 

Again, just opinions, we all have them. But, I have witnessed them in action. I have used them in race applications. They work.

 

 

 

Define "small gain by itself". What are we talking here? And what other mods make them useful and why?

 

3-5 hp and ft-lbs by itself. Couple the TB with the intake and it increases.

 

I'm looking for a *reason* why these work. So far I haven't found a good theory nor any real proof that they do anything more than lighten your wallet.

 

Then don't use them. Just do not discount something that you do not have working knowledge of.

 

As I said on a true throttle body application or on a carb application where there is fuel/air mix going through the spacer there might be some validity but if you are just pumping air through the thing - how is a spacer any different than attaching say....... a hose from a shop vac and sticking it in the trunk?

 

Again, you are just arguing to argue. The fuel rails run against the intake. If you lower intake temps then the rails can also have lower temps for this arguement. I think you do not really understand what is being said here. TB's do not lower temps. They increase velocity. Which means air speed going into the cylinder. Intake spacers lower temps. TB spacer goes between TB and intake. Intake spacers go between intake and head.

 

 

GD

 

"V" engines do not use intake spacers. Therefore, they can not know how they work on "their" application as there is not one!

[GeneralDisorder]

I understand perfectly where the types of spacers go and I am not argueing at all that intake spacers reduce temps. That's a no-brainer.

 

I am talking about throttle body spacers - which V engines can easily use just as we can.

 

How exactly does a TB spacer increase velocity? By what mechanism?

 

And as for the "ramcharging" comments and pictures - that's a completely different concept involving tuning the intake runners to reflect the pressure wave caused by the closing of the intake valve. It can't be accomplished with a TB spacer as the spacer does not act on the individual runners but on the TB as whole. So that's out the window and shows a clear lack of understanding of either concept on the part of whoever brought that into the discussion..... also lengthening the intake runner will increase the RPM at which ramcharging takes place unless you move to a higher multiple of reflections.... which I doubt anyone with a spacer on an EJ has even bothered to calculate - not that it would do any good.

 

And I'm arguing because I *still* haven't been given a reason to beleive any of these claims Ken. Please - teach me something new. Thus far there has been no attempt to explain or even link to an attempt to explain this velocity increasing TB spacer......

 

There *must* be an explanation if people are really seeing gains from this - and that knowledge can only help to expoit the concept further. If there's a gain to be had I want to know how to get it and how to maximize it. The only way to do that is to understand it. It's clear that no one here really does - if there is anything to understand.

 

GD

Edited November 29, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[TheLoyale]

 

Rick, ok even if it is a waste of time and a few bucks just to see what happens to a TBI or Carbed engine when you apply a 1-2" spacer to that engine. Maybe you will notice a small gain, you will never really know unless you give it a try.

 

a block of steel or Aliminum is what, $20-$35 and then just some time to drill the bolt holes and make a what 1-1/2" or 2" round hole in the center. Now would you need to ad a gasket to the bottom of the spacer/intake and then a gasket on top of the spacer/TB?

 

The other thing is, with an extra 1 or 2" the hood won't close - 1" maybe, but not 2"

 

-Tom

[GeneralDisorder]

The test wouldn't be a valid comparison to an EJ. You might actually see some gains on the dyno with an SPFI rig as the added length could cause an increase in atomization. That's pure speculation of course.

 

Additionally - I don't have the time or money to dyno such a thing.

 

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

Why does everyone always hate on the skeptic?

 

Cmon fellas - hit me with some science. I can take it.

 

GD

Edited November 29, 2009 by GeneralDisorder

[TheLoyale]

Why does everyone always hate on the skeptic?

 

GD

 

Lol, at least everyones in a good spirit

[zukiru]

there's actually to many variables. one would have too build an use several models to find something that worked right. not worth it imho

.73 inches might be the magic number. it might be an inch even... you might LOSE power AND economy.. nobody here wants that!

 

 

unless it's the same Ej22 and exact style spacer that Chux used

experience from someone you trust is worth a lot too.

[Qman]

The test wouldn't be a valid comparison to an EJ. You might actually see some gains on the dyno with an SPFI rig as the added length could cause an increase in atomization. That's pure speculation of course.

 

Additionally - I don't have the time or money to dyno such a thing.

 

GD

 

Atomization occurs in the cylinder not the runner in a MPFI. The TB spacer allows the velocity to increase slightly before entering the manifold. Which will increase said velocity. Which will increase air speed going into the cylinder over the stock design. It is not a 100 shot bolt-on. It is simply another piece to the puzzle that allows a little more power to be gained.

 

When searching for power, small gains anywhere they can be found will make the difference in winning or losing sometimes. One-hundreth of a second wins races. Sometimes that is all that is needed.