TBS-(exist for subarus?)

[GeneralDisorder]

I'm not dissagreeing with what you are saying - I agree that increased velocity in the manifold would be a desireable thing - Just wondering what the mechanism is that causes the spacer to increase the air velocity. Is it a venturi? Are they specially shaped on the inside diameter? I've never seen one of the commercially available ones..... *how* does it work?

 

In trying to understand a new concept it is often useful to consider boundery cases. If it is desireable to move the TB away from the manifold then what would happen if you put the TB right next to the MAF and then had all that pipeing from the TB to the manifold as your spacer (mandrel bent SS tubing perhaps)?

 

With only atmospheric pressure to work with, how is the posistion of the TB relative to the manifold going to affect velocity? And by what mechanism?

 

The TB butterfly affects laminar flow by causing turbulence - are you saying that the spacer helps to counter-act the turbulence of the TB at the critical phase change from TB to individual intake runners? Allowing the air to "straighten out" before it enters the runners?

 

GD

[Qman]

I'm not dissagreeing with what you are saying - I agree that increased velocity in the manifold would be a desireable thing - Just wondering what the mechanism is that causes the spacer to increase the air velocity. Is it a venturi? Are they specially shaped on the inside diameter? I've never seen one of the commercially available ones..... *how* does it work?

 

In trying to understand a new concept it is often useful to consider boundery cases. If it is desireable to move the TB away from the manifold then what would happen if you put the TB right next to the MAF and then had all that pipeing from the TB to the manifold as your spacer (mandrel bent SS tubing perhaps)?

 

With only atmospheric pressure to work with, how is the posistion of the TB relative to the manifold going to affect velocity? And by what mechanism?

 

The TB butterfly affects laminar flow by causing turbulence - are you saying that the spacer helps to counter-act the turbulence of the TB at the critical phase change from TB to individual intake runners? Allowing the air to "straighten out" before it enters the runners?

 

GD

 

Absolute scientific definition... I don't have it. I have working knowledge of it. I have seen them increase power, ever so slightly. That is all I need to know. I do not need to know the rest or be able to put it down on "paper". Take it for that or not. It is your choice. I don't need to debate these facts.

[GeneralDisorder]

But if the design or implementation can be improved through understanding the underlying principles of operation - would that not be important?

 

My point is simply - if it works, great. Now lets understand why so we can make a better one......

 

GD

[joostvdw]

Absolute scientific definition... I don't have it. I have working knowledge of it. I have seen them increase power, ever so slightly. That is all I need to know. I do not need to know the rest or be able to put it down on "paper". Take it for that or not. It is your choice. I don't need to debate these facts.

 

I'm sorry, but first you challenge him to be specific and scientific, like you're used to. And when he does so, with direct and specific questions on how it works, you just say "it works, believe me". Doesn't sound very scientific and "researchy" to me?

 

Also, he's not debating facts, he's questioning where they are coming from, also something you do all the time when doing scientific research, trying to understand what the hell just happened (more power with an spacer) and must importantly how does it happen.

[Qman]

I'm sorry, but first you challenge him to be specific and scientific, like you're used to. And when he does so, with direct and specific questions on how it works, you just say "it works, believe me". Doesn't sound very scientific and "researchy" to me?

 

Also, he's not debating facts, he's questioning where they are coming from, also something you do all the time when doing scientific research, trying to understand what the hell just happened (more power with an spacer) and must importantly how does it happen.

 

Yes, Rick does debate just to debate. I also answered the question. I also stated that I do not have the "evidence" he wants. Do you have something sound to add or are you just adjusting post count? There is a ton of information out there if you or Rick so choose to explore it. But, use it in the context it is being suggested from the OP. Not through V-6/8 forums.

 

I never challenged him for science or research to back up his statements. I simply stated that my working knowledge of the product may be better than his "research" of something he has not seen or used. Or, for that matter, ever plans to use.

[GeneralDisorder]

I will further investigate. I spent an hour or so looking last night and unfortunately there is so much garbage being sold to people (Vortex, Helix, Tornado.... etc) that it's difficult to find anything that isn't trying to sell you something, debunk one of these craptastic wallet lightener's, or isn't replete with testing errors and unscientific conclusions.

 

I would be willing to guess it might improve laminar flow after the TB butterfly but I can't find any real data on that either.

 

GD

[Ricearu]

Throttle body spacers are useless for ea engines. They suffer from fallout enough (puddling fuel in the throttle body), due to the tee intake design, and the pulse effect in the intake.

 

the tornado is a gimmick. A $50 piece of stamped junk metal that "swirls" the intake charge. There was independent tests done on those proving that the "swirl" effect was eliminated as soon as turbulance was created anywhere in the intake.

 

If you want to make more power from your car, just port/polish the heads, and then match the intake with a port of its own, port/polish the throttle body and add a small phenolic tb spacer to isolate it from the coolant passage. then get rid of the L boot and put a smoothed out intake pipe on the tb to the maf and use a cone filter.

 

Hell eliminating the air box got me a few ponies according to the butt dyno. I just made an adapter to the maf, and used a spectre on mine.

[Qman]

Throttle body spacers are useless for ea engines. They suffer from fallout enough (puddling fuel in the throttle body), due to the tee intake design, and the pulse effect in the intake.

 

The spacer will not effect the puddling. Which model are you refering to?

 

the tornado is a gimmick. A $50 piece of stamped junk metal that "swirls" the intake charge. There was independent tests done on those proving that the "swirl" effect was eliminated as soon as turbulance was created anywhere in the intake.

 

They are a gimmick. But, we had a chance to ad one to a EJ18 Impreza on the dyno one night. It actually gained 5 or 6 whp on a Mustang dyno. We were laughing hard about using one until the results. Then it was, "wow, there is a benefit".

 

If you want to make more power from your car, just port/polish the heads, and then match the intake with a port of its own, port/polish the throttle body and add a small phenolic tb spacer to isolate it from the coolant passage. then get rid of the L boot and put a smoothed out intake pipe on the tb to the maf and use a cone filter.

 

Yes, spot on with the porting and polishing when done in conjunction with a flow bench. Otherwise it is completely hit and miss. Any material except metal(aluminum, steel etc.) will reduce temps.

 

Hell eliminating the air box got me a few ponies according to the butt dyno. I just made an adapter to the maf, and used a spectre on mine.

 

Using the stock air box, cut open the bottom and remove the accordian tube will result in better results than elimination.

 

 

I tend to not cite science when I reply to this type of post. I prefer to cite actual hands on reference. I am not a scientist or an engineer. But, I am a very successful fabricator. I have been very fortunate in all my Subaru builds. Working knowledge is far superior to book knowledge or theory IMHO!

[GeneralDisorder]

Working knowledge is far superior to book knowledge or theory IMHO!

 

Book knowledge and theory built the car you are fabricating on and modifying. They must go hand-in-hand. There are things you will only learn from books and there are others that you will only learn by doing.

 

GD

[Qman]

Book knowledge and theory built the car you are fabricating on and modifying. They must go hand-in-hand. There are things you will only learn from books and there are others that you will only learn by doing.

 

GD

 

True, but the book smart people who told me I couldn't do it is what motivates me!

[Numbchux]

a throttle body spacer increases the volume of air between the butterfly valve in the throttle body and the combustion chamber. I honestly don't understand the physics behind it beyond that.

 

peak hp gain is minimal (2-4hp). But it yields a noticeable shift in the power band to lower rpms. I did also notice a slight increase in highway mileage (1-2mpg) pretty consistently after installing it.

 

http://groupa-performance.com/PR_throttle_body_spacer.html

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f66/throttle-body-spacer-installed-16369/

 

 

FYI, the group A one pictured is the same one I have. it is not a perfect fit for early 2.2s. the center hole and mounting holes are perfect, but the 2.2 TB has a small chamber coming off of it that extends beyond the side of the spacer and will leak. I bought an extra gasket, and cut a piece of sheet aluminum to the shape of the TB, and sandwiched it between 2 gaskets on the TB side of the spacer, and it hasn't leaked a bit since.

 

 

 

knock it all you like. I have one. I noticed gains. Mine is not for sale.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Numbchux

[3eyedwagon]

a throttle body spacer increases the volume of air between the butterfly valve in the throttle body and the combustion chamber. I honestly don't understand the physics behind it beyond that.

 

peak hp gain is minimal (2-4hp). But it yields a noticeable shift in the power band to lower rpms. I did also notice a slight increase in highway mileage (1-2mpg) pretty consistently after installing it.

 

 

knock it all you like. I have one. I noticed gains. Mine is not for sale.

 

DING DING DING. This was my point. Any time you increase the distance between the TB and the intake valve, you are going to manipulate things like intake volume, and velocity. The "helical" inner design of the spacer is what claims to be responsible for increased atomization of the fuel, and the changing of air stagnation inside stock intake manifolds. Thusly effecting the HP, and Torque curve. Positively, OR Negatively. Figuring out how, and why is better suited for men who like to sit in rooms with no windows, and argue over petty things. I'll invest the time it takes to understand it to the point that it benefits my life, the rest of my time is better spent enjoying the benefits firsthand, because, I've actually installed and used one.

 

I can tell you with much real world experience, and great certainty that all 5 of the Poweraid PN 200-540 I have bought have paid themselves off in gas mileage probably within the first 6 months. All of the cars these were installed on have had very scrutinizing records maintained using mileage tracking through a gas purchasing network. They all increased 2-3 mpg with the exception of my S10 which increased 4mpg. It is a manual, and has 2 less cylinders. I would expect as much. If you need verification of my driving habits, ask any of my passengers/friends. I drive like an @$$hole, always have, and continue to do so everyday. I understand the idea behind mileage making, I just don't care. Thusly, all of these cars have been tested under real world conditions with a guy who thinks he's a stunt driver piloting them. Poweraid PN 200-540 has a list price of $109 and an install time of 30-45 minutes. That's probably a reccomended time based on how long it took the book smart engineers to find an end wrench. It'd probably take us stoopid street smart folks more like 15 minutes. If I had a dyno in my shop I would be glad to go out, take the one off my Caprice and get a baseline run for you, but, I don't. Yet.

[joostvdw]

Do you have something sound to add or are you just adjusting post count?

 

As you can see from my join date and my post count I'm obviously not here to raise my post count and look impressive

 

My addition to the conversation was pointing out GD was not being an rump roast for being an rump roast (although he does seem to like doing that) but he was asking for scientific confirmation.

 

As for your real life experience, I'm glad it works for you and I'm not doubting you telling the truth. But with these kind of technologies or mods, which sound sketchy to me, I like to see hard evidence (dyno printout/fysics explaining how/why it works) before I'm sold.