how much better is the Ej22 over an ea82t?

[vagen]

I have a pretty well set up ea82t but it's showing signs of being tired. I am looking at the EJ22e but I'm worried it will be a performance downgrade compared to my turbo. I am wondering if the 22 can be modified for more power easily? my ea82t is making just shy of 160HP at the crank so the EJ would have to match that at least.

[GeneralDisorder]

5 lbs of boost into the 22E will net somewhere around 200 HP and will be reliable.

 

GD

[subiekid]

I just completed a swap in my '88 gl10 wagon from a rebuilt healthy ea82t (uppipe, 3''downpipe +exh., spider intaked, td04, delta 260 cams, wrx intercooled, nissan injectors, etc), to a stock non intercooled ej22t with 176k. The ej has more grunt hands down, it's pretty close power wise (at least seat of the pants, I won't dyno a $500 car... lol) .... until you intercool, etc. the ej, then it's game over.

 

I have never driven a ej swapped ea series car non turbo, but have driven many legacys turbo and non. There really isn't a huge power difference from an n/a ej22 to a stock ej22t. If you run the piss out of your ea82t, you will have problems it's just a matter of time. I have modded (and blown up) alot of ea turbo cars, they don't like to be pushed hard. Even if your fueling is safe (I always ran with a innovate wideband to monitor a/f ratio and egt for exh. temp) once you get beyond 10 psi, your out of what I call the "reliable" zone. I don't hate the ea by any means, it's a good commuter motor to leave alone and drive. The turbo version is a huge improvement power wise compared to the carb or spfi, but you kind of have to look at it as "it is what it is". Some can modify them and make them last, but I attribute that to driving sensibly, something i'm not very good at... lol.

 

With a healthy n/a ej you have approx. 140 hp and can run the dog piss out of it day in, day out and it will be more driveable at the same time. Not to mention less maintnance; no cap, rotor, timing adjustments, etc. get in turn the key and go.

 

My $.2

Scott

[idosubaru]

the Ej22 is a huge step above the EA82t in terms of reliability.

 

as for performance, you can't really mod a non-turbo engine like a turbo. if you want to add a bunch of horsepower to non turbo engine easily you'll be terribly disappointed. you can't just bolt and add on horsepower like you can with a turbo.

 

that being said you could add a turbo onto the non turbo engine, they can reliably handle low boost, much more reliable than an EA82.

[Quidam]

"I have a pretty well set up ea82t but it's showing signs of being tired."

 

I've been wondering when this post would appear. You're racing and boosted. The most important measurement in your motor is the clearance, compression (top) ring to ring land, and back clearance between the compression ring and the piston.

 

I have a used piston here with .030 back clearance. Not too bad but, for your motor, I'd want only .010, if I could get it. You're pretty much stuck with what the piston mfg. provides here.

 

I have a used Subaru piston here with .004+ clearance, compression ring to ring land. You'll want no more than .002, if this motor has a chance to live.

 

If the top ring gives way, or leaks, the second ring, the oil scraper goes to hell quickly.

 

That leads to detonation. And other stuff.

 

Doug

[vagen]

I got the car with the knowledge the engine has had a LOT of abuse. 14psi at the GRM challenge and then rally stages in GA followed by several years of autocross. it has started to use oil a touch faster so I am thinking it is on the way to EA heaven. I'm currently looking at an N/A EJ22 and I've looked into heads and cams for more compression and breathing. what I've discovered is with higher compression and a set of Delta cams the EJ22 makes good power in the 150-170 crank HP range. That would replace the EA nicely and have almost none of the reliability issues associated with the EA.

[Quidam]

He Vagan,

 

I hear you. What I said in my last post applys to an EJ-22 too, if you're racing.

 

Doug

 

However, I'll bet you that the majority of folks who have built EA-82Ts here, had no idea what clearance they had on the pistons. And, that their used or rebuilt motor had excessive clearance, for what they were trying to do. Doomed to failure.

 

Doug

[vagen]

this EA was built by someone who knows what he's doing but the years of high boost and equally high RPM have taken their toll. I will be looking for a good EJ22 and probably a set of EJ18 heads to build a high comp Frankenstein EJ.

 

If I can't find a good 2.2 I'll go with a SOHC 2.5... The problem there is I can easily buy a ready made harness for the 2.2

Edited November 26, 2009 by vagen

[Quidam]

Well now, that could explain why it's lasted this long. Or mabie they got lucky with a new set of pistons and rings.

 

At any rate, if you tear it down, I'd really like to know what you have for compression ring to ring land now. A data point I can appreciate, as I'm building one and don't intend for it to explode.

 

Sincerely,

 

Doug

[subiekid]

For the engine I described above checked with starrett feeler gauge set in .01mm increments:

 

New Subaru oem pistons .010 oversize with subaru rings as well

- .05mm (.002) give or take a few tenths, for all top ring groove clearance, .06mm (.024) would not slide into any of them

 

- .04mm (.0016) give or take a few tenths, for all second ring groove (not as critical but measured) as with the above .05mm would not slide into any.

 

Per 88 FSM:

Top ring- .04 - .08mm (.0016 - .0031in.) Limit .15mm (.0059in)

Second- .03 - .07mm (.0012 - .0028in.) Limit .15mm (.0059in)

 

As far as the back clearance is concerned, this particular original engine had 214k on it (20k of abuse) when the heads cracked down into the intake and exhaust ports. I would say that I don't need to be concerned with that measurement due to the fact that I can do nothing about it and it seemed to make it quite awhile from the factory.... your a fellow subaru owner, they seem to have their ************ together.

 

I would not be so quick to assume what people do and don't know about their engines.... would you like any more clearances, I've got every one in the shortblock!

Edited November 26, 2009 by subiekid
wink

[Quidam]

Hey kid,

 

Cool. I have a Genuing Subaru Ea-82 set of pistons in front of me. I have another that should be here romorrow. New pins, locks, and rings.

 

I was pleasantly supprised today when I measured the 1st ring to land. With Genuine Subaru ring set, it's about .002 or less.

 

With a Beck/Arney ring on the same piston, even less than that. These are made in usa.

 

Doug

[Phizinza]

how much better is the ej22 over an ea82t?

8000%

[Numbchux]

^hehe, I was just going to say, "Infinitely".

 

 

 

a 2.5 would get you the 160ish hp you seek without any trouble.

 

 

the biggest difference between the 2 is the torque curve. I used to wind my EA82s out to redline EVERY shift. and I'm sure an EA82t is the same way. I shift my Ejs at 4k or less all the time except on the track. as there just isn't any need for it.

 

but yea, slap 5-6psi of boost at a 2.2, and you'll have much more power than your Ea82t. the ONLY challenge, is management. specifically ignition timing. the logic modules in the EJ ECUs are very good at adjusting fuel trims, but they won't pull timing.

 

 

either way, if you're going to nit-pick the last 20hp or so between a 2.2 and your Ea82t. grab an OBD II engine. they put out better power. the ECUs are smarter still, much more responsive to mods.

[vagen]

^hehe, I was just going to say, "Infinitely".

 

 

 

a 2.5 would get you the 160ish hp you seek without any trouble.

 

 

the biggest difference between the 2 is the torque curve. I used to wind my EA82s out to redline EVERY shift. and I'm sure an EA82t is the same way. I shift my Ejs at 4k or less all the time except on the track. as there just isn't any need for it.

 

but yea, slap 5-6psi of boost at a 2.2, and you'll have much more power than your Ea82t. the ONLY challenge, is management. specifically ignition timing. the logic modules in the EJ ECUs are very good at adjusting fuel trims, but they won't pull timing.

 

 

either way, if you're going to nit-pick the last 20hp or so between a 2.2 and your Ea82t. grab an OBD II engine. they put out better power. the ECUs are smarter still, much more responsive to mods.

 

can the 2.2 ecu compensate for the additional displacement of a 2.5? I'm not seeing many prepped 2.5 harnesses available just 2.2. TBH I'm just lazy enough to go for a 2.2 because of the harness availability.

[idosubaru]

EJ22 and EJ25 engine side harness plugs are the same, so that won't matter. You can run either engine on either ECU. They are also interchangeable.

 

So you could have:

 

EJ22 body harness

EJ25 DOHC engine with intake and harness

EJ25 ECU

 

I'm not sure what harnesses you keep referring too (body or engine or both) but it should be easily doable either way.

 

As far as wiring and ECU's - in 95-98 EJs you can swap EJ22 engines and EJ25's all day long, just pull one out and install the other, there's no work to the wiring, harness, or ECU. they're all interchangeable. All DOHC EJ25's (available 96-99) will plug right into the EJ22 harnesses.

 

EJ22's are more reliable as the EJ25's have head gasket, piston slap, and rod bearing issues on occasion. It's personal preference since there's a variety of goals - reliability, performance, costs, etc.

[vagen]

Numbchux sells a conversion harness for the OBD1 EJ22. I am most likely going to go with that harness and matching computer. I was just wondering if it could handle the extra 245cc of displacement that a 2.5 has. I am leaning heavily toward a 2.2 Frankenstein for my car. it would be a 2.2 bottom end with EJ18 heads (ported and polished naturally) and delta cams. I am planning to use a 2.5RS header and probably my existing exhaust (even though it is probably too big @2.5 in). Intake is the area I'm still working out, the stock airbox on my car is incomplete and there is no heimoltz resonator in the fender. I'm thinking about using two sizes of pipe to try to imitate the resonator 3" for most of the intake but a section of 4" to buffer the pulses. I have seen an intake like this on a friends 2.5RS and he doesn't seem to have any problems RE: AFM misreads. Option two would be to use the resonator box from a newer subaru that mounts right at the TB and go from there on an intake.

Edited November 27, 2009 by vagen

[idosubaru]

Oh right, I'm not as familiar with the older OBDI stuff in terms of connectors and such, I'm sure he'll chime in.

 

A built EJ22 like you're talking about would be easy. I have an EJ22 intake manifold installed on my EJ18 heads as well, bolts right up, basically exactly what you're doing but mine is OBDII.

[Quidam]

 

"New Subaru oem pistons .010 oversize with subaru rings as well"

 

Did you hone a tapered cylinder to fit the piston, or did you have it bored?

"- .05mm (.002) give or take a few tenths, for all top ring groove clearance, .06mm (.024) would not slide into any of them"

 

What I'm saying is anything more than .002 here is unacceptable, in a racing engine. (Or an engine you can boost...if you want to make real power. It's that important.

 

"Per 88 FSM:

Top ring- .04 - .08mm (.0016 - .0031in.) Limit .15mm (.0059in)"

 

OK, .0031 factory limit. Take the engine I got a piston from that has 4+, it ran good. Take an engine like it, (many have), and throw the boost at it. It's not long for this world.

 

 

If you would, I'l like to see your build numbers. Thanks

 

Doug

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

I'm going to add here, last engine I built after a 1K mile break-in, leaked down, 1%.

 

Doug

 

Edit: I tested that motor with a 100psi gage. Actually, it probably leaks a little more than that because I didn't measure at the 175lb pound cranking pressure.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Quidam

[Quidam]

OK guys, humor me here and then I'll drop it in this thread. Here's New Genuine Subaru pistons. A new set of Beck/Arnley rings. I have about $80.00 in the combo, and time, which is money.

.0015 to .002, no more on any of the rings. Compression ring backclearance around .025.. They have .013 less back clearance then the Genuine Subaru rings. About as good as it gets, for off the shelf. If I were building the Ultimate EA-82T, it's clear that it would have to have custom pistons.

 

Doug

 

Edit: The only forged off-the-shelf piston I know of is the Wisco, sold (exclusivly?) it looks like, by RAM. These pistons should come in at .005, to 010 on the top ring backspace. It "should" come in at about .0016, compression ring to ring land clearance. If so, now we're talking. The most power possible, the most durable and long lived set-up you can get.

 

Now, they've kinda moved on from the EA stuff and should the price of this piston set ever come down to earth, I'd be on it like white on rice:) I'd probably run the TNT gapless top ring for turbos, tho.

 

I checked another set of B/A rings on these pistons, about the same as set #1 on the clearance, they're consistant at least. May be "Sealed Power) rings? They are better than the Subaru rings at sealing things up, on these pistons.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Quidam
Add text

[Numbchux]

Numbchux sells a conversion harness for the OBD1 EJ22.

 

no I don't. I offer the service of stripping your harness. I will do this on any 2001 or older subaru harness for the same price, but you still have to provide a donor. do it right, grab your donor harness and stuff from a 2.5, and be done with it.

 

 

or, if you plan on modding, and really want to get the most out of it. grab a standalone.

[WoodsWagon]

I have both a stock EA82T and a swapped N/A EJ22. When the EA is running, it's kinda fun, you stand on the throttle, it pulls and then wham it comes alive when the boost builds. It adds entertainment value, but the EJ has the same pull as the EA under full boost all the time. And it runs all the time. Even when I had toasted the EJ, burned an exhaust valve, and it was an oil burning 3 cyl, it still had plenty of power for me to commute for 2 months like that.

 

Swap in an EJ22, get the stock exhaust piping, turbo, oil and coolant lines off of someone with a EJ22T who's upgraded, and run it at wastegate boost pressure. It will make plenty of power, and be dead reliable.

[vagen]

so what I really need is a wrecked in the rear or rusted to near oblivion EJ car that I can pull the harness and engine out of. Correct?

[Turbone]

I have both a stock EA82T and a swapped N/A EJ22. When the EA is running, it's kinda fun, you stand on the throttle, it pulls and then wham it comes alive when the boost builds. It adds entertainment value, but the EJ has the same pull as the EA under full boost all the time. And it runs all the time. Even when I had toasted the EJ, burned an exhaust valve, and it was an oil burning 3 cyl, it still had plenty of power for me to commute for 2 months like that.

 

Swap in an EJ22, get the stock exhaust piping, turbo, oil and coolant lines off of someone with a EJ22T who's upgraded, and run it at wastegate boost pressure. It will make plenty of power, and be dead reliable.

 

I beg to differ on that point. You might have had a tired EA82T.

My EA82T (modified of course) has 155bhp and 171tq.

The stock EJ22 has 133bhp and 137tq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine#Specifications_5

 

If you do a engine swap and race it (at the track), you will be put in another class.

But you will have a better engine to run with, with more upgrade options.

[Quidam]

"If you do a engine swap and race it (at the track), you will be put in another class.

But you will have a better engine to run with, with more upgrade options."

 

Another class, I was just thinking about that. Whatever he puts in it for the class, it comes down to this: Will you have enough power to race and compete.

 

Or will you have enough power to give yourself a good shot at winning.

 

Doug