tonic Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hello all, I have a "new to me" 1994 Loyale with a 5 spd. I got it stuck on nearly level ground with very greasy mud, the front end was engaging, but when in AWD all I could hear was grinding by the tranny and no rear wheel power, like when you shift to AWD on the fly and one front wheel is already spinning (bad I know). This AWD drive works when there is a bit more traction, or I get to get it rolling a bit first, but the spinning from a start it could not handle. Also, when it is engaged, the transition to first or reverse gets a loud thump/clunk from the rear diff, when under load (high rrrrs + clutch dump). I've got new CV's all the way around....... Am I looking at two bad diffs? I'm worried this car is gonna be worthless in ice and snow. I'm not used to having a Sub with a weak AWD system, not sure where to start, but "that sound" really grates my teeth. Any suggestions or tests would be greatly appreciated, snow is about to fly in Wisconsin and my beater with a heater is semi-castrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 well you cant shift in to 4wd while doing wheel spins or you will break it there is no center diff, it is a pto shaft, assuming you have a pushbutton 4wd you should look up about how to use your 4wd. you cant do it on pavement or engage while making u-turns it may seem like a 'weak' 'AWD' system but you would be surprized how many of these cars are ruined by weak owners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 in 4WD this thing should do well in the snow, you'll be limited by tires before traction. sounds like something is amiss but i don't know what it is. loud thunk is usually just the rear differential bushing, which is benign and doesnt' cause any problems, but with all your issues it might be something else. it's not both diffs, i hear nothing that indicates your rear diff is bad, just the bushing which is easy to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonic Posted December 3, 2009 Author Share Posted December 3, 2009 It was never my intention to shift into AWD with the wheel spinning, it's just in the past (I've owned 6 Loyales) I've accidently done it when trying to time the AWD engagement so I don't get stuck (keeping momemtum before coming to a stop). This is when I've heard the grating sound before, like splines trying to line up and grinding, or spinning on a worn splines/stub. I know how to perform my Subaru's AWD system, and I'm mindful of abuse.... The dry pavement and U-turns reference are duly noted, but are NOT the problem here. I never would have found this site if I didn't love Subaru's, and subsequently have a bit of experience with them. The previous (weak) owner had a horrible tire situation going on, toe in, bad ball joints, one odd sized tire, etc..I'm worried the front diff took a beating or where the drive shaft outputs from the tranny. The sounds seems to orignate right under the driver seat/tranny I think the thunk is truly the bushing, so that problem is OK, I guess I gotta wait for some snow to reproduce the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 with the condition left by the previous owner, with the odd size tires, will stress the output shaft to the rear instead of the front diff. the front diff would only be compromised by low gear fluid sorry to bark at you. welcome aboard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonic Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 I thought I recalled reading about a fix for the rear bushing, something involving rtv silicone????? Anyone got a good cobble for it or how to? 3-5" of snow falling as I type! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Kind of sounds to me like the gear that engages the rear output shaft of the transmission is stripped... that usually only happens when people are running in rear wheel drive and putting all the power through that output gear instead of half of it through the front diff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 You should always have the car in $wd before you attempt to do any slippery stuff. It sounds to me like the system wasn't fully engaging and that prop\bably due to trying to shift "on the fly". The system really wans't designed for that. If I have to drive in bad weather, I just engage the 4wd and leave it. As long as you aren't on dry pavement, you will be fine. Try putting the car in 4wd while stopped and the drive a bit ans see if the sound it replacated. I bet it isn't. If it is, then you will have to track down the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonic Posted December 4, 2009 Author Share Posted December 4, 2009 Yeah, it's pretty bad. I got it out on the ice, anytime I free spin the front right tire, the sounds emanates from the tranny. Also, new clue, when coasting in AWD in neutral, if you lock the brakes it makes the same sound, grinding/clicking/wratcheting-like-click. I can feel it vibrate through the gear shifter. It goes into AWD fine at a stop or on the fly, but once you spin a front tire or lock it up, it does it. Odd thing is, if I don't spin the front or lock it, I got AWD or at least feels/grips like I do. I'm leaning with zyewdall so far....but the neutral thing has me stumped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonic Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 Well, I got around to dropping the driveshaft. The splines on the male stub at the rear of the tranny appear sharp and OK. The female splines on the begining of the driveshaft line up, but my question: there are two flat grooves directly across each other in the female splines. They look like factory produced gaps in the splines, is this normal? I would have thought it would be 100% splines all the way around, but these two grooves are about the thickness of two splines widths....Hope this makes some sense. I was wondering if this joint could spin free while under load, but otherwise stay engaged at low torque / no wheel spin. If this isn't the culprit, I gotta dig into the tranny a bit more, it appears the end plate comes off, where the shifter plunger goes in? I wish my Mitchell had a good blowup of the parts in question, shikes, I think a Chilton would do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Sorry, just to clarify. Do you have a box which runs in front wheel drive most of the time, or one of those with a lockable centre diff? Just that the first option isn't really AWD. Yes its deliveing power to all the wheels, but it operates more like a "proper" 4wd where its locking the front & rear diffs together. And by driveshaft do you mean the front ones coming out of the side of the gearbox? Sorry for the stupid questions, but we Aussies call things slightly different to you guys & I don't want to offer advice for the wrong info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonic Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 Wagonist, thanks for your reply The 94 Loyale has the push button AWD, no center locking diff. When I speak of a driveshaft, I mean the hollow shaft connecting the tranny to the rear diff, not the CV/halfshaft. In my case it's two pieces. Another new clue, while taking the drive shaft off, I noticed ALOT of old gear lube caked around the rear of the tranny. When I got the car, the gear lube was half on the dipstick, I topped it off, but I fear the old owner ran it low, since it looks like a bunch is caked on the exterior of the tranny. So which part would get chewed up primarily if this is the case? I imagine the whole thing is compromised? It's too bad, it runs like a champ in 2wd, maybe I'll scrape AWD sticker off and put some tape over the push button on the shifter.....Fixed! (and for sale!) Thanks for all the replies guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast I Drive Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Not really important or helpfull post to the topic, but its a pet peeve of mine. THE LOYALE IS NOT AWD, its 4WD. 4WD. 4WD!!!!! There is no center diff, there are transfer gears. When you push the button, its not in AWD, its locked in 4wd (if the tranny is working properly). There is no slip between the front and rear when the 4wd is engaged, so there will be binding if its driven on dry pavement in 4wd, because its not designed for that. If you drive it like that too much it CAN destroy the transmission's 4wd output gears. If one of the previous owners did not know the difference between 4wd and AWD they probably drove it on the street, every day, in 4WD, and in the process destroyed the 4wd output gears while wondering why it was binding in turns . The 4wd system on these Loyales is more akin to the 4wd system on a fullsize Ford 4wd truck than a AWD Legacy, you don't use it on the street unless you are driving in adverse conditions (snow, heavy rain, ice, et.). On a side note, I had a transmission from a wrecked GL (5 speed D/R 4wd) that had rear ended a PT Cruiser at 60... The 4wd engaged and the gears were intact when I opened the rear cover, but the aluminum collar machined into the case that holds the gears in position had broken from the impact, and the gears could slide in/out of 4wd anytime they wanted to. Back to the topic, pull the tranny out of the car and pull off the plate on the tailsection to look inside. You will be able to inspect the transfer gears for damage or something blocking the 4wd from fully engaging. Pull the drain plug and imspect the fluid for metallic particals or chunks of the gears as well. If everything looks good, then go over the 4wd engagement system, which is 2 electric vacuum solenoids hooked up to a round vaccum diaphram mounted on the driver side of the tranny, connect to a cable that runs to the 4wd lever on the passenger side of the tranny. If there is a vaccum leak somewhere it may be pulling the diaphram enough to get it to begin to engage, but not enough to fully engage the 4wd, hence grinding and bad noises. 4wd. -Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eulogious Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) THE LOYALE IS NOT AWD, its 4WD. 4WD. 4WD!!!!! Just to nit pick/clarify, I have a 1990 Loyale that IS AWD, but I have the automatic 4EAT transmission, so it's a "true" AWD system. So I think you mean to say that all MANUAL Loyales are 4WD. There is some variation with the automatics for the Loyales I believe (3AT? and 4EAT available?), but that's off topic... I think that the reason so many people think that the Loyales had AWD and center locking diffs is because the RX and turbo models had them in the older years, and they don't realize that subaru basically discontinue those trannys for the loyales and replaced them with different offerings. My 2 cents. Edited December 10, 2009 by eulogious Added my 2 cents worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Clunking in 4wd when going on and off throttle, Forward/reverse, etc.....is most often a sign of a bad U-joint at the front off the center driveline. Easy fix is to replace with a used one. It is also possible to ahve the original u-joint unstaked and replaced, but not really easy. Even sourcing the correct u-joint can be tough. But used ones are a dime a dozen. Order one from out west and it won't have any rust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The 4WD/AWD discrepancy is the reason I asked my question. From my understanding too, Subaru never called the cars that had the locking centre diff AWD, they called them full-time 4WD, which I think is more appropriate than AWD, & separates those cars with the mechanical centre diff vs the viscous one (except for the 4EAT:rolleyes:, which carried over) Actually, it'd be good to know what's what. 3AT: FWD/4WD, FWD 4EAT: AWD 4sp M: FWD, FWD/4WD D/R 5sp M: FWD, FWD/4WD, FWD/4WD D/R, FT 4WD (centre diff lock), FT4WD DR (centre diff diff) I'm jealous of your choices. Here we only got the 3AT, 4sp M, & 1st 3 5sp M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eulogious Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I guess I should clarify what I said earlier. The 4EAT is a Full Time 4WD transmission. For this topic, it's the closest thing to "AWD", that's why I brought it up. My bigger point is that there is a difference between the manual and the automatics transmissions. That's all. Let's not start a "AWD" flame war. If anyone wants more info the differences between FT 4WD and AWD, just search for it. It's been covered recently. I just want to throw that in... continue on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now