Brake Issues (Pins, rotors, pads)

[MischivousSlpwlkr]

So I have 1996 OBW that I recently brought in to a shop b/c the bearing and knuckle were going bad. I told them to check everything else out while it was there. They told me that the glide pins were 80% frozen, and that I need new pads and rotors. They also wanted $700 to do the job, and having replaced pads myself in the past I said no thanks. They also told me I needed to replace the whole caliper.

 

I am planning on undertaking this job tomorrow, but I've got a few questions.

 

1. Do I really need to replace the caliper? It seems like if I can knock the pins loose I should be able to lube em up again and they should be fine? No?

 

2. Am I gonna need to replace the pins if I don't replace the calipers?

 

3. How hard is it gonna be to get these pins, bolts, rotors, etc... out and off?

 

Thanks for the help!

[GeneralDisorder]

1. Do I really need to replace the caliper? It seems like if I can knock the pins loose I should be able to lube em up again and they should be fine? No?

 

That's all I ever do. Penetrant, a brass drift, and some elbow grease. Clean em up (wire wheel on your bench grinder is my preference), regrease, reinstall.

 

You can get caliper rebuild kits with piston o-rings, boots, etc. They are dead simple devices to rebuild.

 

2. Am I gonna need to replace the pins if I don't replace the calipers?

 

Probably not unless you have to get nuts and drill them out.

 

3. How hard is it gonna be to get these pins, bolts, rotors, etc... out and off?

 

Entirely depends on what they meant by 80% frozen. I just did one where I spent 30 minutes driving out a single slide pin and carefully salvaging the boots because I'm cheap (they weren't torn or brittle). Cleaned it up as well as the bore in the caliper, greased and reinstalled. No problem.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

You're welcome.

 

You can do the wheel bearing yourself too. It's not that hard. I use the "FWD service set" from Harbor Frieght - works like a champ. You just need a two or three jaw puller to get one race off the hub. Total cost was $80 for the kit from HF, $35 for the bearing, and $6 each for the seals.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

The caliper is fine, they don't fail that often, they're just lazy and don't care about your money.

 

I've rebuilt calipers before too - like GD said the kits are like $10...actually the last EJ kit I bought was $6 I think to rebuild the entire caliper - that's how complicated they are

 

Anyway - you likely don't need that anyway. Sometimes the pins are a bear to get out. I typically use a pair of large channel locks and position them with the top end on the back of the pin and the bottom end on the caliper ear (not the pin obviously or it won't come through) and squeeze.

 

Once the pin is out it's all easy - just regrease and replace any torn boots and install new pads/rotors. Two 17mm bolts on the back hold the caliper in place, those need to come off to replace the rotor. Don't have to complete remove the calpier, just unmount it, so leave the lines in place.

 

Very easy job - only hard part will be having something sufficient to get that pin out - channel locks or brass drift...etc.

[MischivousSlpwlkr]

Gary and GD, thank you very much, that has helped me get started!

 

Now, I've been struggling for about a 2 hours now, and I've got another 2 questions.

 

1. On the lock bolt (on the bottom of the caliper), is the bushing that that goes thru supposed to slide within the caliper? Right now it is completely frozen.

 

2. I can't get the damn caliper off!!! I've been battling with it, and the top pin doesnt move at all in the caliper. The only turn I get is the pin turning in the caliper bracket. But nothing in the caliper. What should I do?

It's getting late, and I'm starting to freak out a bit.

 

Just to be clear, right now, my caliper is still stuck on the mount, at the pin on top.

 

UPDATE: 3.5hrs later, I am giving up. These things are completely f'in frozen. I don't think they will ever move. Plan B: Buy new calipers. Not sure what else I'm gonna have to deal with. But, I need to drive from Denver to New York in 2 weeks, and I'm not sure that I can do the drive with the brakes like this. I'm also quite certain I can't pay the shop $700. D'OH!!!:mad::mad:

Edited December 6, 2009 by MischivousSlpwlkr

[GeneralDisorder]

You need a BIG hammer. Rotate that caliper up and smack it with some serious poundage. I like a 2-3 lb sledge for stuff like that.

 

Also - sometimes patience is the best option. Soak with some penetrant or 50/50 ATF and mineral spirits (laqour thinner, whatever), Then..... WAIT. Seriously - douse in penetrant, wait 30 minutes and do it again. Then heat it with a propane torch till it's nice and toasty and douse with penetrant again while it's hot (don't use laquor thinner if you do this though). You want to get some cappillery action going.

 

You *can* get them off. It's just going to take some patience and probably a bit of heat. If you can get access to an oxy/acetelene torch then you can take it off in a few minutes.

 

GD

[nipper]

What exactly do you mean by you can't get the caliper off.

 

 

The pins are cheap enough to replace if they are really bad.

 

 

 

 

nipper

[idosubaru]

those pins are real tricky but should come out. have you tried a c-clamp, pounding, or large channel locks? what have you tried to get them loose?

 

if they don't, just buy a used set of calipers. i even have a set i'd sell if you want to PM or email me.

[MischivousSlpwlkr]

Okay, so to clarify, here is where I'm at:

 

The lock bolt comes out of both calipers just fine. But, when I rotate them up they don't seem to be pivoting on the pin, but rather turning the pin in it's hole in the caliper bracket.

 

To get them loose I've tried lots of liquid wrench, pounding with a regular hammer, large channel locks (one jaw on the outside part of the caliper, one on the inside part of the bracket), and lots of swearing.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have access to an oxy/acetylene torch out here, but I would buy a cheap propane torch if it came to it.

 

My other concern is that the lower bushings that the lock pin goes through seem to be completely frozen too, so it seems like even if I get the calipers off, I'm still gonna be fighting an uphill battle.

 

My plan for the moment was to buy a new set of pins and calipers, and to cut through the frozen pins with a hacksaw, and then replace everything. I'd rather not do this, but I'm running low on time and ideas.

 

Thanks again for the help and sticking with this thread though my battle!

Edited December 6, 2009 by MischivousSlpwlkr

[idosubaru]

Hmm - the calipers are actually pivoting though? That leads me to think they would come out but you've already spent hours on them? The ones I haven't been able to remove, or broke when trying, were seized so bad they woudln't even move.

 

So you have the "one bolt" and "one pin" style calipers, not the two bolt style? There are both on these dual piston style calipers.

 

Spray lots of penetrant up in there (WD40 is not a penetrant), have something quality like Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, etc - all available at Lowe's, auto parts stores, etc. Let it set for awhile if you can.

 

Rust is really annoying - turns 20 minute jobs into hours.

 

Used calipers are really cheap - my buddy just replaced both front calipers in a 97 OBW (same as yours) for chump change, I think it was $25 each or something crazy cheap like that. He ordered from a place down south which means no rust too!

[GeneralDisorder]

You need heat if you want to save them. Plain and simple.

 

If you go the small propane torch route - get a bottle of Mapp gas. Burns hotter. The trick is to get as much heat to the caliper as quickly as possible - you want to expand the hole in the caliper while the pin stays relatively cool so it will break the rust and create a gap for lube. Failing that, get the whole stinkin thing as hot as you can and apply ice to the pins - shrink the pins away from the expanded caliper bore.

 

Penetrant + heat = cappillery action.

 

Take the whole bracket off the knuckle and find someone with an O/A setup. A minute or two with a rosebud and some penetrant (thinned ATF is just as good) will bust them loose. Only time I've seen red hot iron fail to release frozen rusted parts is when they were basically friction welded together. You'll lose the booties for the slide pins and probably the piston boot and o-ring but rebuild kits with all those parts are really, really cheap.

 

GD

[Allpar Mod]

GD has got it. Sometimes, heat is quite necessary. I also agree with the MAPP gas over propane. Much hotter and better. It's maybe the next best thing to oxyacetylene. The whole point of using heat is to break the bond between the metal parts due to the corrosion and you need to significantly raise the temperature of the metal to do that. Propane just doesn't do the job.

 

Make sure you use a penetrating oil when one is needed. By that, like was stated, use PB Blaster, Kroil (another very good product), or any other brand if that's all you have available. Give the plenty of stuff time to soak. Don't just spray it and go to work like many do. The stuff just doesn't work that way.

[heartless]

wow, sounds like you have some seriously stuck pins - I have never seen one that frozen up - not even on a 20 yr old car in the salt belt!

 

Yes - the bushing you asked about should move within the housing - again, lots of PB, let it soak in good, heat on the outside if you have it, squirt again...

 

the other half's Legacy had pins that werent sliding very well (completly worn inner pads, darn near new outer pads), but we didnt have THAT hard a time getting things apart - PB Blaster is the cat's meow for doing this stuff - coupled with a little heat if things are really bad - might take several cycles of heat/PB, but it will eventually work.

 

In the absence of a good heat source - squirting PB in as best you can, and rotating the caliper back & forth (up/down) on the pin may help as well, as can a couple taps with a hammer (causes vibrations that will help the penetrant get in)

 

When you do get the darn thing apart and cleaned up - make sure you are using the grease specifically made for brake systems to regrease everything. when re-assembling, lube up the piece, put it back in where it belongs - slide it back & forth a couple of times, smear a little more grease on, repeat...make darn sure all moving parts get coated good!

 

Good luck.

[MischivousSlpwlkr]

I am really starting to think these aren't worth saving. I don't completely understand how they got so seized up, as they moved the last time I did the brakes (summer 2007). I'm wondering if it was the cars many years in the salt belt, combined with the fact that last winter I didn't drive it once from November to May, and I basically let snow that was up to its windows just melt around it for 2 months.

 

Anyway, if used calipers are really as cheap as everyone says, for the extra $10 or so over the rebuild kit, it might be the way to go.

 

Like I said, the only rotation is from the pin in bracket! There is absolutly none where the pin goes into the caliper.

 

I've been using liquid wrench...Unfortunately, since this was only a temporary move, and about to end soon, I don't have a ton of tools and stuff out here, and it sounds like in the end I might actually save money by just throwing away the calipers I got.

[GeneralDisorder]

I am really starting to think these aren't worth saving. I don't completely understand how they got so seized up, as they moved the last time I did the brakes (summer 2007).

 

Did you clean and regrease them at that time? If you didn't that's probably 90% of the reason they won't move now. Lesson learned eh? ALWAYS grease the pins and replace any slide pin boots that are torn. Even here on the West Coast I see frozen caliper slide pins and we don't have any rust to speak of.

 

GD

[MischivousSlpwlkr]

I greased them, but I didn't really clean them.

 

YES. LESSON LEARNED.

[unibrook]

U need heat. Period.

My bracket bolts were frozen. So frozen I snapped the head off of a bolt with my breaker bar.

I took it to the shop, he heated all the bolts with his torch and they all spun right out.