Winters here - Time to pull the ABS fuse

[JohnKos]

Had our first small snow fall and freeze. Had my first almost slide thru a traffic light when the ABS kicked in. Was only going about 10 MPH when I hit a patch of slush that would have been a non-event without ABS. Love the car (97 Legacy) hate it's ABS.

[idosubaru]

Had our first small snow fall and freeze. Had my first almost slide thru a traffic light when the ABS kicked in. Was only going about 10 MPH when I hit a patch of slush that would have been a non-event without ABS. Love the car (97 Legacy) hate it's ABS.

 

I was very surprised about ABS, knowing as much as I do about cars and how long it took me before I knew how poorly ABS can work. But it's actually mostly your tires. The ABS doesn't work well with sub-par tires.

 

The best option is to get a dedicated set of snows or new tires, it will make a world of difference. If you're having problems with ABS then even without ABS you're still going to have poor performance in an emergency situation with slick road conditions.

 

Depth of tread means little in this case.

[JohnKos]

I feel there is know way ABS would do better then i could manually. it's not that the car slides when ABS kicks on, it just feels like the car is fighting my wish to stop. my guess is i travel 3 to 4 times as far as i would by braking without it.

[idosubaru]

I feel there is know way ABS would do better then i could manually. it's not that the car slides when ABS kicks on, it just feels like the car is fighting my wish to stop. my guess is i travel 3 to 4 times as far as i would by braking without it.

Exactly - that's what happens with poor tires.

 

Actually - you can find my old thread when I was saying exactly what you are saying now 3 years ago. Lots of tread - like %80 and performed great - when I got new tires the braking was completely different. Since getting new tires it performs fine. I actually have snow tires on 2 of my 4 vehicles now and they're even better.

[idosubaru]

here's an entire thread discussing ABS:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=680253

 

ABS is very finnicky, so disable if you need too. But be sure your tires are good because when the white stuff is on the road and you're in an emergency situation snow tires will make a difference between good and bad.

[CNY_Dave]

My '03 OBW slid like that with brand-new Graspic DS2's.

 

I find the ABS useful, generally, so I have practiced 2 strategies to cope:

 

1- Ebrake

 

2- turn off the key.

 

Yes, there are a few downsides to turning off the key, but at 10mph, and when it'll make the difference between a non-event and damage, it can be a good choice.

 

 

Dave

[Major Lazy]

here's an entire thread discussing ABS:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=680253

 

ABS is very finnicky, so disable if you need too. But be sure your tires are good because when the white stuff is on the road and you're in an emergency situation snow tires will make a difference between good and bad.

 

not sure if its just me but that link wont work.

[Fairtax4me]

I think THIS is the thread he was linking to, but he got the wrong URL somehow.

[JohnKos]

Well, almost didn't come to a stop at a traffic light this morning. Going about 10 mph in slush. Started to brake in plenty of time but the abs kicked in anyway. didn't slide, didn't slow, so i put it in neutral, pulled up the ebrake and almost became very familiar with the rear end of an older subbie wagon. came within 5 feet of his (her?) bumper before coming to a complete halt. I read the other thread and it looks like i'll be going the blown fuse 2 wires to a switch route to kill the ABS when needed. Don't see how snow tires would make any difference (i didn't slide) if the brake fairy won't stop pushing back on my pedal.

[CNY_Dave]

Well, almost didn't come to a stop at a traffic light this morning. Going about 10 mph in slush. Started to brake in plenty of time but the abs kicked in anyway. didn't slide, didn't slow, so i put it in neutral, pulled up the ebrake and almost became very familiar with the rear end of an older subbie wagon. came within 5 feet of his (her?) bumper before coming to a complete halt. I read the other thread and it looks like i'll be going the blown fuse 2 wires to a switch route to kill the ABS when needed. Don't see how snow tires would make any difference (i didn't slide) if the brake fairy won't stop pushing back on my pedal.

 

That's a case where turning the key off would be ideal. You don't need to steer, and you won't need to stomp on the gas in the next 5 seconds.

 

Dave

[soob109101]

I, too, would like to disable my '92 Legacy ABS. Could someone tell me please where to disconnect/pull the fuse/relay?

 

More full disclosure on my problem - had the wagon 2 yrs. When I bought it, there would be occasional brake "jolting" when driving say over 40mph and in 5th gear [never does it in 4th or lower]. Never could determine if it was just one particular wheel, several wheels ..... or just random wheels. I changed the rear rotors and pads and cleaned the caliper slides pins so they work good. Left the front rotors and pads in place since they were good, but cleaned the slide pins. I thought this maintenance would solve the problem but it didn't help, still jolted in 5th gear. Then last week I changed my four summer Goodyear Integrities to four Nokia snow tires, very good tread, evenly worn. That's when real problems started. I had the left front caliper piston lock up and had to bleed it to disengage. And all four wheels will run hot, randomly. Can't discern any pattern. Also, the brake light on the dash will now come on at random times, but seemingly without any difference in rolling momentum.

 

Could anyone offer some clues as to this bizarre ABS 5th gear problem? Could it also involve faulty anti-rollback braking? This is also done through the ABS, right?

 

Thanks for any help!

[mrlynn]

I'm confused. The whole point of ABS is to prevent skidding. Yours did the reverse? Maybe there's something wrong with the system.

 

/Mr Lynn

[Gloyale]

I'm confused. The whole point of ABS is to prevent skidding. Yours did the reverse? Maybe there's something wrong with the system.

 

/Mr Lynn

 

It's technically to prevent wheel lock up. These people aren't having wheel lock(skidding) they are simply rolling forward when they want to apply the brakes harder and stop.

 

What is happening here is that in snowy (or muddy) conditions, with not so great tires, there is very little friction between the car and the road.

 

This makes it very easy for a wheel to lock up.....so the ABS won't let you apply the brakes very hard.

 

Now anyone familiar with driving in snow knows that alopt of times you just need to be able to lock the wheels for that last 5mph of slow down and gently slide to a stop. But the ABS won't let you do that..........you just keep on rolling.

 

This also addresses the snow tire/bald tire issue. If you have better grip on the road, more friction, the wheels won't so easily lock, so the ABS will let them keep gripping and braking.

[JohnKos]

This also addresses the snow tire/bald tire issue. If you have better grip on the road, more friction, the wheels won't so easily lock, so the ABS will let them keep gripping and braking.

 

(Ah ha moment)... now i understand why you say snow tires would help, Thx

[mrlynn]

Well, most of the cars I have owned have not had ABS, so I'm still not that familiar with it. I'm still surprised when I notice it kicking in and vibrating my brake pedal. I grew up in the days when you learned to slow down in advance of situations (the art of coasting up to a stoplight—and pissing off the guy behind you), and you pumped the brakes judiciously when you noticed a bit of a skid.

 

I'll have to keep this advice in mind. In the old days, 'bald tires' meant just that—billiard balls! Now people are suggesting we junk tires with 5/32" of tread left. That's many miles, by my reckoning.

 

Then, I remember two-ply ("four-ply rated") tires, too.

 

/Mr Lynn

[Speedwagon]

Even with the best of tires, these ABS systems can cause you problems on occasion. I remember a specific patch of road out east, that when braking over, would cause the ABS to kick in because the front right tire would bounce over the ripples in the road, and increase the stopping distance quite a bit. It probably added a good 5ft of stopping distance when the ABS kicked in, and I was running Firehawk SZ50EPs at the time, so traction wasn't an issue.

 

That said, I pulled my ABS fuse a few years ago, because the front left sensor went bad. That can cause some serious pucker issues when you hit the brakes full-on, and the front left tire locks while the rest are still rolling, while traveling on snow. Having the rear swing out of my lane while braking hard is not my idea of fun.

[JohnKos]

Well we were preparing to get hit with the monster eastern storm last night so i dove my daughters vw golf home so she didn't have to. there was a couple inches on the road already and i came to my first stop sign. low and behold the ABS on her car kick in and holy mackerel... i came to a stop. i didn't roll thru it like i would have in my legacy. i tuned down a side street, sped up and hit the brakWs. damn, same thing happened, i came to a stop. no white knuckle hold on for dear life untill the car comes to a stop feeling. maybe it;s me, maybe it's the car. atleast i know how ABS is supposed to work.

Drop her car and ran to the store in mine. Shot right by to entrance going a whopping 5 mph. oh well, anyone ever do a VW to subaru abs swap?

[StructEngineer]

Well we were preparing to get hit with the monster eastern storm last night so i dove my daughters vw golf home so she didn't have to. there was a couple inches on the road already and i came to my first stop sign. low and behold the ABS on her car kick in and holy mackerel... i came to a stop. i didn't roll thru it like i would have in my legacy. i tuned down a side street, sped up and hit the brakWs. damn, same thing happened, i came to a stop. no white knuckle hold on for dear life untill the car comes to a stop feeling. maybe it;s me, maybe it's the car. atleast i know how ABS is supposed to work.

Drop her car and ran to the store in mine. Shot right by to entrance going a whopping 5 mph. oh well, anyone ever do a VW to subaru abs swap?

 

Funny you say this. My civic w/o ABS makes the same comparison to my Forester. When it snows my wife and I take the civic because its MUCH safer. I'm going to say the Civic stops in 1/2 the distance. Every intersection with the Forester is a white knuckle guess if the thing will stop as the ABS vibrates away.

 

I'm not sure if its a function of weight? The forester is only a few hundred pounds heavier than the civic but maybe its enough to make a difference?

[howards11]

It's not the ABS that's at fault......it's the tires !

 

 

~Howard

[StructEngineer]

But I'm running BF Goodrich Traction T/A's on both the Civic and Forester.

[Bad Brian]

I have a 98 Civic EX AND a 98 Impreza OBS and the ABS has gotten me into trouble in both of them virtually every time it snows! I drove in my first snowstorm in 1969 and have been driving around in the snow ever since. In all of the other cars when trouble came up I would lock up the brakes as necessary, then release to aim the vehicle in the correct direction and lock up again, etc until I came to a stop. Once in a while it would be a hairy situation but usually excessive speed was to blame. That method of handling sliding was as natural as "turning into the direction of the skid' is for most of us. Now in crappy weather when I hit the brakes I have almost no stopping ability, just a lot of thumping and waiting to see where I end up sliding to or what I will slide into. I just slide thru stop lights and bounce off curbs! I have hated ABS since I got these cars and was wondering if it was possible or even legal to disable ABS. The ABS on the Civic also goes berserk when applying brakes while running over manholes or potholes also.

[Setright]

Your problems stem from a combination of bad tyres and worn dampers/shock absorbers.

 

YES, in an ideal stop, the ABS will lengthen the braking distance moderately. City speeds, the difference might be 2-3 feet.

 

HOWEVER, in a panic stop, when a child runs in front of you, and you mash the brake into the carpet, the ABS will stop you, the NON-ABS will see you lock all four and slide onward.

 

It is a reality, in a panic, most of us just stand on the brake. I have participated in many advanced driving courses, and I am very confident in most situations, even some suprises, BUT a pedestrian that appears from nowhere still means standing on it. Sure, in some cases there may be space/time to release the brake and steer around, but again...panic does mean panic.

 

 

PLEASE CONSIDER THE AGE of your tyres also. 4 years and the wet/cold weather performance drops off. 5 years, and they are useless.

 

Look for 4 digits stamped in an oval. First two are week number, second two the production year.

 

0105 means first week of 2005....and those tyres are only suitable for the dump. Nevermind the tread depth.

[howards11]

I have a 98 Civic EX AND a 98 Impreza OBS and the ABS has gotten me into trouble in both of them virtually every time it snows! I drove in my first snowstorm in 1969 and have been driving around in the snow ever since. In all of the other cars when trouble came up I would lock up the brakes as necessary, then release to aim the vehicle in the correct direction and lock up again, etc until I came to a stop. Once in a while it would be a hairy situation but usually excessive speed was to blame. That method of handling sliding was as natural as "turning into the direction of the skid' is for most of us. Now in crappy weather when I hit the brakes I have almost no stopping ability, just a lot of thumping and waiting to see where I end up sliding to or what I will slide into. I just slide thru stop lights and bounce off curbs! I have hated ABS since I got these cars and was wondering if it was possible or even legal to disable ABS. The ABS on the Civic also goes berserk when applying brakes while running over manholes or potholes also.

 

Maybe you need new ABS wheel sensors ?

 

~Howard

[Setright]

By the way, the ABS...even in a 1990 Legacy works on a simple enough principle. 4 wheel speed sensors and an accelerometer (a.k.a. g-sensor).

 

The ABS brain monitors the wheel speeds, AND how they change. A simple mathematical formula allows it work out how many "g" the car should be pulling for the wheel speed to drop at whatever rate. By comparing this figure to the real value from the g-sensor, it can decide if a wheel is locking up.

 

Dry roads, good tyres, let's say the calculation produces a theoretical 1.1g. The g-sensor says 1.0g...so the ABS will take some of the brake line pressure off the wheel that says it slowing "too fast". The pressure...as you have noticed is bounced back into the brake pedal!

 

 

SOOOO.....the amount of grip available is vital for a good stop. With or without ABS.

 

It is also important to remember not to loosen the pressure when the ABS starts pulsing the pedal...keep pressing!

 

 

Most Hitachi ABS equipped Subaru's have the g-sensor nestling behind the gear selector, under the center console. Go on...take a peak ;-)

[StructEngineer]

By the way, the ABS...even in a 1990 Legacy works on a simple enough principle. 4 wheel speed sensors and an accelerometer (a.k.a. g-sensor).

 

The ABS brain monitors the wheel speeds, AND how they change. A simple mathematical formula allows it work out how many "g" the car should be pulling for the wheel speed to drop at whatever rate. By comparing this figure to the real value from the g-sensor, it can decide if a wheel is locking up.

 

Dry roads, good tyres, let's say the calculation produces a theoretical 1.1g. The g-sensor says 1.0g...so the ABS will take some of the brake line pressure off the wheel that says it slowing "too fast". The pressure...as you have noticed is bounced back into the brake pedal!

 

 

SOOOO.....the amount of grip available is vital for a good stop. With or without ABS.

 

It is also important to remember not to loosen the pressure when the ABS starts pulsing the pedal...keep pressing!

 

 

Most Hitachi ABS equipped Subaru's have the g-sensor nestling behind the gear selector, under the center console. Go on...take a peak ;-)

 

Maybe Subaru's ABS module is slow at calculating, just like Toyota's braking system.

 

I think your 2'-3' claim is way off.... we're talking 1 - 1.5 car lengths more stopping distance required. Basically though, youre saying that we give up daily braking capabilities so we don't hit pedestrians who dart out in the road... brilliant.