Engine is clacking clacking and clacikin

[legacysubaru]

This morning I decided to head to work early. THe car started out fine. I was driving all was good then all of the SUDDEN the engine, when taking off from a stoop light it started clacking pretty bad increasing as the rpms go up. so I Pulled over checked the oil, it was fine. The car is running fine. No misfire. Drives fine its just loud clacking. To my ears it sounds valve train related, not so much a deep knock, but I don't know subarus that well.

 

Car is a 2.2 1995 Legacy. I just replaced the timing belt, cam and crank seals. I drove it about 100 miles since without a flaw till about 20 minutes ago. Could something have come loose? Like an idler? But it sounds more internal and repetative like.

Could the valve lash have mysteriously just went out all of the sudden while driving??

Any suggestions?? :eek:

[bgambino]

I would say it jumped a tooth on the timing belt but I would have thought it would run lousy too....must be related to your timing belt job. Did you do it or who?

[legacysubaru]

RUnning fine. I did the job myself.

[ericem]

Maybe a bad idler??

 

Try and listen with a screw driver in each head. It's a 2.2l so it has HLA's.

[lostinthe202]

When you did the T-belt, did you check the oil pump back plate screws? These can loosen up and cause low oil flow causing the hydraulic lifters to loose their ability to lift properly.

[legacysubaru]

Maybe a bad idler??

 

Try and listen with a screw driver in each head. It's a 2.2l so it has HLA's.

 

Idler's are brand new as is the idler tensioner. I did reuse the Tensioner because it was within spec.

 

I'll do the screwdriver thing tonight. I'm sorry, what are HLA'S?

 

I did tighten up the backplate screws on the oil pump along with a new o-ring.

 

I'm wondering if one of the cam sprockets has come loose and is making noise. I had a hard time getting one of them tight.

[lostinthe202]

Idler's are brand new as is the idler tensioner. I did reuse the Tensioner because it was within spec.

 

I'll do the screwdriver thing tonight. I'm sorry, what are HLA'S?

 

 

Hydraulic Lash Adjusters

[Fairtax4me]

Did you use RTV sealer on the oil pump? That stuff has been known to cause trouble by plugging up the incredibly tiny oil holes in the rocker shaft. The ones that feed the lifters.

[legacysubaru]

Did you use RTV sealer on the oil pump? That stuff has been known to cause trouble by plugging up the incredibly tiny oil holes in the rocker shaft. The ones that feed the lifters.

 

I actually did. The high temp stuff. I still think it may be the cam sprocket being loose. I'll try that and hope for the best. If it is a plugged oil hole. What is the best way to flush it out?

[Fairtax4me]

Well first you have to find which one it is. Hope for your sake that it's just the one for the rocker shaft. Usually removal of the rocker shaft will reveal the culprit and it can be flushed out with air or spray cleaner being fed from the opposite direction of normal oil flow. At worst you'll have to stick a piece of wire in there and try to dig it out.

 

I'd remove the oil pump and reseal it with anaerobic sealer. It doesn't dry the same way that RTV does so it won't clog the oil passages.

[legacysubaru]

WHere can I get some anaerobic sealer? What brand and type?

 

Thanks.

[Fairtax4me]

Any parts store should have some. But if all others fail go to Napa. Permatex or Loctite will probably be the most common. Three Bond makes great stuff if you can find it.

[lewisd]

I just bought some today at local auto parts store. I'm sure major retailers have it as well. small tube for $5. NAPA only had huge tube for $17 dollars. guy laughed and said I'd only need this much as he pointed at his pinky finger nail. He said try somewhere else for smaller tube. At least they are honest and straight forward at my local NAPA. I can't find anywhere the activator it mentions in the directions. I figure it's like some super glues that have an activator, makes it cure quicker (I build model kits). It just speeds up the process but you can still use it without it. still haven't gotten a response from Permatex.

[legacysubaru]

Ok, so it is not a loose cam sprocket for sure. The noise is coming from the passenger side rocker "area".

 

Is there a chance the adjuster came loose on a rocker? (forgive me I know very little about these engines and I know they are not called rockers in this app but I can't remember the right term) It almost sounds like a loose rocker arm.

 

And what would the sound difference be between a loose rocker and a oil passage block causing oil starvation?

[idosubaru]

And what would the sound difference be between a loose rocker and a oil passage block causing oil starvation?

hmmm, that's a tough one.

 

i would think it's not oil starvation unless it's rod knock coming from the bottom end. probably valve train related - but that's a very odd issue - it like never happens.

 

if the car has been worked on before or had issues before then i would guess valve train issues. if not, i'm a bit hesitant to say for sure it's oil starvation to the cam - they usually just lock up.

 

can you pull the valve cover and have a look? maybe pull both and then compare the amount of residual oil splashed up inside the cavity to each side. lack of oil supply to one side/one area should be visible that way?

 

i've done it before on older engines and the oil pumps out really good in the valve train area, seems like it would be obvious visually.

[legacysubaru]

Ok the factory service manual states upon finishing the t belt install

 

" after properly installing timing belt, remove rocker cover and ensure that the valve lash adjuster contains no air"

It ends with that doesn't say how or what to do "if".

 

What would this imply if air was in the system?

Edited December 31, 2009 by legacysubaru

[idosubaru]

highly unlikely to just start after a timing belt install. MMO can free up a sticky HLA but i'd be very surprised if that's your issue - unless there's more info i don't know about.

 

have you pulled the belt and made sure it's not the tensioner or belt slapping around somewhere?

[legacysubaru]

have you pulled the belt and made sure it's not the tensioner or belt slapping around somewhere?

 

I have only pulled off the right and left covers to check the sprockets for looseness and there was none. I do remember triple checking the idlers and tensioner for tightness. It was the sprockets I was unsure of.

 

Well, I did pull the valve covers off. Plenty of oil in the cover and rocker area, althouhg there was a bit more on the left bank.( noise is coming from the right bank)

 

One think I noticed was a good amount of slop ( you could move the rockers with your hand) in the right bank. This was in the valve closed position. In contrast the left bank did not have any slop whatsoever. I tried this in different rotations of the engine. Is there supposed to be any slop in the rockers? I would not think so. And if not what is the next step to alleviate this problem.

 

Thanks.

[Fairtax4me]

The "slop" is commonly known as "lash" in auto terminology. The lifters or lash adjusters are hydraulic and use oil pressure to keep the lifters pumped up, and lash at the recommended spec. Lack of oil will cause the HLAs to bleed down which creates a gap between the rocker arm and valve. Makes noise and prevents the valve from opening all the way which could lead to rough running/low power.

 

You'll want to remove the rocker shaft and find/remove the obstruction in the oil passage. Do you have a service manual for the car?

Edited December 31, 2009 by Fairtax4me

[legacysubaru]

 

You'll want to remove the rocker shaft and find/remove the obstruction in the oil passage. Do you have a service manual for the car?

 

I do have a manual. Could air just gotten trapped in the HLA? or is it that the air got trapped by lack of oil??

Edited December 31, 2009 by legacysubaru

[idosubaru]

you know for sure the noise is coming from the valve trains/valve cover area - is this true? sorry, it's hard not being able to see it and talk to you in a normal fashion. want to make sure we're chasing the right rabbit.

 

timing tensioners can appear and feel fine but make noise under load when the engine is running ,so want to make sure it's not that, that is far more common than HLAs.

 

if it is an HLA it should pump up within 20 miles of driving. this happens all the time when an engine is rebuilt or when removing the heads. the HLA's are very noisy, sounds like something is terribly wrong with the engine, but the HLA's just need to pump up.

 

if that is your problem then just drive it 20 miles and it should go away. but still odd, they typically don't just bleed down for no reason.

 

if the HLA appears stuck - run some MMO in the oil. i've even used ATF in the past to free up noisy HLA's.

[legacysubaru]

I got the rocker assembly off. WHat is the best way to clean/check for obstructions in the oil passages? I do not want to push the obstruction the wrong way Id like to pull it out right??

[legacysubaru]

you know for sure the noise is coming from the valve trains/valve cover area - is this true? sorry, it's hard not being able to see it and talk to you in a normal fashion. want to make sure we're chasing the right rabbit.

 

timing tensioners can appear and feel fine but make noise under load when the engine is running ,so want to make sure it's not that, that is far more common than HLAs.

 

if it is an HLA it should pump up within 20 miles of driving. this happens all the time when an engine is rebuilt or when removing the heads. the HLA's are very noisy, sounds like something is terribly wrong with the engine, but the HLA's just need to pump up.

 

if that is your problem then just drive it 20 miles and it should go away. but still odd, they typically don't just bleed down for no reason.

 

if the HLA appears stuck - run some MMO in the oil. i've even used ATF in the past to free up noisy HLA's.

 

Gary, I'm pretty sure the tensioners etc.. are ok. the noise actually appeared suddendly Tuesday morning after about 5 minutes of driving. THe noise does sound like it is coming from the right side of the motor and that is the side with the lash. ( i could move them with my hands).

 

ALso, I used the wrong type of sealer on the oil pump. I used a non anaerobic type of ATV. A piece may have come off and obstructed the passages.

[Fairtax4me]

you know for sure the noise is coming from the valve trains/valve cover area - is this true? sorry, it's hard not being able to see it and talk to you in a normal fashion. want to make sure we're chasing the right rabbit.

 

timing tensioners can appear and feel fine but make noise under load when the engine is running ,so want to make sure it's not that, that is far more common than HLAs.

 

if it is an HLA it should pump up within 20 miles of driving. this happens all the time when an engine is rebuilt or when removing the heads. the HLA's are very noisy, sounds like something is terribly wrong with the engine, but the HLA's just need to pump up.

 

if that is your problem then just drive it 20 miles and it should go away. but still odd, they typically don't just bleed down for no reason.

 

if the HLA appears stuck - run some MMO in the oil. i've even used ATF in the past to free up noisy HLA's.

 

I thought about that, but it seemed like they should have had plenty of time to bleed and re-fill since he said he'd driven the car over 100 miles with no problems since doing the work before the problem started.

 

I got the rocker assembly off. WHat is the best way to clean/check for obstructions in the oil passages? I do not want to push the obstruction the wrong way Id like to pull it out right??

 

Usually compressed air is best for clearing oil passages. If you don't have that use a spray cleaner. Wear eye protection.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Fairtax4me

[msmithmmx]

Stuck lifters are going to make a clicking sound. The sound you described sounds like you are off a tooth. With the engine running and the timing cover removed can you see if the timing belt is bouncing around. When you put the tensioner back in did you use a flat head screw driver to push it to the left before tightening down and pulling the pin?