repair or replace?

[griffenrider]

Oh no! an opinion question. Here's to hoping it gets interesting. My (2002 outback ltd) car needs a new cat to pass emissions in NY. I'm getting parts estimates of around 900. The moonroof chassis also should be replaces (so that my roof stops leaking - and no, it's not just the drain tubes), which is going to cost me 2200 in parts. It's winter and I don't have an indoor garage, so labor for the two is going to be around 400, assuming I drop the headliner and put it back in myself. The car is worth (according to an average of KBB and Edmunds) 5100. It has 130k and is in otherwise damn good condition.

 

So, do I repair or replace? I'm arguing myself in circles, so please (or the sake of me learning something) justify your vote.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Fairtax4me]

You can find much better prices for OEM parts if you look online.

 

Subarupartsforyou.com lists the converter set for $799, and they offer an aftermarket set for $499.

http://www.subarupartsforyou.com/cp_partlistbymod.php?model=Legacy&subcat=Exhaust%2C+Converters&year=2002

Depending on where you live it may be worth it to order online and have the parts shipped, but not always.

The converter is a fairly straight forward replacement if using the O.E. part. Unbolt the old one (usually easier said then done, I usually just cut the old bolts off and replace with new ones) Then bolt the new one in place with new gaskets. You may have to swap the heat shields, but that isn't too difficult once you get it off the car.

 

Sunroof problems are... well just that.

Most of the time unless there is a problem with the track (broken cable, worn guides) there is no reason to replace the entire unit. If it's not draining properly it usually because the drain tubes are clogged or not connected properly. There is a gasket around the glass, and the glass itself can be replaced usually. Perhaps you should consider that before opting to replace the entire unit. How did you come to the conclusion that the drains are not at fault?

[griffenrider]

900 is the high-end, I've been quoted 800 - 900 for the cat, the issue is that I would rather pay someone with a shop and a lift rather than work under (or on top of) my car while it's on ramps and 13 degrees outside. Were it summer, I'd do it myself, but my timescale just isn't going to permit that.

 

As far as the sunroof, I'm sure it's not the drains for two reasons: 1) I've cleaned them very, very carefully, and 2) because I can see the crack in the runners. The leaking is the reason I need to fix it, but the original problem is that it's, well, broken.

 

In either case, it sounds like you're voting for repair because the car still has some major life left?

[Gnuman]

With 130K on the clock, the car is just getting to be good and broken in. Yes, there is major life left in it. is the 800-900 price for parts and labor? sounds like they are getting the $499 unit themselves. .

 

(my vote is to repair it as it sounds like it has quite a few good miles left in it)

 

Oh, and you can put off the repair of the sunroof if you seal up the sunroof until then. I use PVC tape (used to patch PVC pipes, find it at a good hardware store.) to do this on mine.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Gnuman

[WRX2FFU]

My opinion is to keep it. Especially if it is paid off.

 

I would look at cheaper alternatives for the sunroof repair as well as the exhaust.

 

You could try aftermarket cats from a parts store and a muffler shop.

 

The sun roof well for now use clear silicone and seal that sucker so it doesn't leak on you. Fix it later or never. The clear silicone can be easilly hidden and most people won't notice it.

 

Or look for a good sunroof in a junk yard and have the roof cut off and then use that to replace yours...

 

The big thing as well. If it will not pass smog then in selling it your gonna take a loss and limit your buyers becasue if they are local then they are gonna need to fix it and you'll be paying for it anyway with a huge loss in sale price.

[wtdash]

If the car isn't .05 & .10 you to death...keep it. $900 sounds like a lot, but it's only a few car payments, rather than 3-4 years of payments for a new(er) car.

 

I don't know the laws in NY, but can you order the cat online, and have a shop put it in? Or even go across statelines to find a shop? I had this done for about $150 - parts (ebay cat) and labor.

 

Seal up the sunroof (and pull the fuse) as mentioned above. I used the black electrical tape, which worked well (but it was also 60+ degrees outside). This worked on an ol' '93 Legacy SS 'your results may vary'.

 

Good luck,

TD

[Fairtax4me]

I know how you feel about the cold. I'm getting ready to drop the transmission on mine to replace the clutch. Too in depth for me to do at work on the lift (takes too long and our service director is touchy about non-service personnel tying up the lifts) so it will likely be in my friends driveway, rolling around in the snow that hasn't yet melted away, and probably won't before next weekend.

 

Cracked runners in the sunroof, yeah that's a good way to ruin your day. I'd try for a junkyard unit. I wouldn't figure on spending more than a couple hundred bucks for the whole thing from a yard. Probably less from a U pull it place if you can find one.

[idosubaru]

There's a $5 fix for a lot of the catalytic converter problems involving installing a non-fouler between your rear O2 sensor and the exhaust. very simple and effective for the common and terribly annoying O2 sensor codes if that's what you have.

 

I've seen folks (on subaruoutback.org i believe) replace all the sensors with Subaru OEM and the converters with Subaru OEM an still have the codes. granted, that is rare, but the point remains the same that the O2 codes are notoriously unforgiving. I wouldn't waste too much money on them.

 

As for the sunroof repair - get a few estimates.

 

Sometimes local Community Colleges, Vo-tech centers, and other training facilities will repair things very cheap (or free) as part of a lesson or training.

[mdjdc]

There is an outback limited in a yard here is Richmond. Is yours the front or the rear roof that is leaking> If you want me to I can go and pull the roof for you and see if it is in good shape. I'm sure it will be way less expensive than the repair you are looking at.

[mdjdc]

I know how you feel about the cold. I'm getting ready to drop the transmission on mine to replace the clutch. Too in depth for me to do at work on the lift (takes too long and our service director is touchy about non-service personnel tying up the lifts) so it will likely be in my friends driveway, rolling around in the snow that hasn't yet melted away, and probably won't before next weekend.

 

Cracked runners in the sunroof, yeah that's a good way to ruin your day. I'd try for a junkyard unit. I wouldn't figure on spending more than a couple hundred bucks for the whole thing from a yard. Probably less from a U pull it place if you can find one.

 

 

 

If you want to drive it to Richmond, I have a shed with a wood stove and we can do the job together. That is, if the car is currently driveable.

 

Mike

[griffenrider]

thanks guys! It sounds like the overwhelming majority (i.e. all of you) are voting repair, which is good news because a) I like the car, a lot. and nobody seems to have had the cat go into another 8k worth of repairs immediately afterwards.

 

As far as the roof, sealant options are silicone, pvc tape, and electrical tape. I'd like to use something removable so that I can actually repair this thing come summer - are any of those permanent? I'd also like it not to crack this winter (expecting temperatures down to at least -20F), experience with that?

@mdjdc: check your pm, and THANKS!

 

And as far as the cat - 800-900 is for the part only. The low end gets me an OEM 49-state cat (1-year, 10k warranty), the high end gets me 50-state cat with 5Y, 50k warranty. I'm thinking the extra warranty (and the extra clean) is worth the extra cash. I'm going to let the shop put it in because by the time I get back from the ER with amputated frost-bit fingers, it'll be worth the trouble.

 

specific replies to folks below:

1) @WRX2FFU: very good point, especially since people will likely quote the dealer-repair on the cat, which is $1300 parts and labor.

 

2) @grossgary: it's a P0420 (cat efficiency), not an 02. I reflashed the ECU with the recall a while back - WWF89, I think? - it cost me $30 at Van Bortel Subaru (only dealer I've been to in 4 states that I wouldn't call a stealership) and haven't had an 02 error since. I did play C.E.K.D. with the 02 error for a little over a year before I did the reflash though.

[idosubaru]

2) @grossgary: it's a P0420 (cat efficiency), not an 02.

Quick lesson on these codes. The computer is clueless about the converter, it only sees what sensors tell it. It's a misnomer to assume this code is related only to the converter. For instance a P0120 "cylinder misfire" - does not mean you need a new cylinder, it means you need new plugs and wires.

 

Cat efficiency is determined by the front and rear O2 sensors. So there's all sorts of other ways to fix this code without replacing the converter. A new converter "might" fix it incidentally when another method would have fixed it as well. I'd verify what's going on before replacing the most expensive item.

 

I'm not an expert on this stuff as it gets really confusing since these systems are notoriously unforgiving. But I'd do some reading or listening to someone that knows this well. I've seen threads where folks replace both sensors (Subaru OEM), the converter, and still have the code.

 

Subaru has a very specific test for figuring out what is going on due to the unforgiving nature of this problem.

 

Basics:

 

Make absolutely sure you have no leaks. An exhaust leak can trigger this code.

 

Tune up - plugs, wires, air filter, fuel injector cleaner

 

Sea foam treatment I believe has cleared this code up before as well.

 

The $5 non-fouler will also remove the code.

 

I'd get some more help here if you want to save a few bucks and figure out exactly what's going on here. Hopefully someone more versed in these pipes up for you.

 

As for the sunroof- im clueless on that stuff and hope mine never leak, that sucks!

[johnceggleston]

 

As for the sunroof- im clueless on that stuff and hope mine never leak, that sucks!

 

 

i too am clueless, but i read here not too long ago, and i believed it, that all sun roofs leak!!!! the reason they work is because they have a water disposal system in place to take care of the leaking water.

 

everything leaks, roofs leak, pipes leak, windows and doors leak air, boats leak, even head gaskets leak. how can the auto industry invent / engineer a glass/rubber?/metal seal that does not leak ???

 

only the space shuttle doesn't leak, at least not very much.

 

i know you said it wasn't the drain tubes, and that the whole thing needed to be replaced, but ....... i think i'd study it a lot before i bought all new parts.

 

the HVAC industry has a great foil backed rubbery sticky gooey sealant tape that they use on duct work, no not duck tape, that is pretty impressive stuff. i used some on a rear hatch where i remove a spoiler and it is still dry 2 years later. but i'm sure it is very costly for a whole roll. i first used it when i pulled an engine i was going to store to seal up openings and tubes. when it came time to install it i had to use a solvent to remove all the adhesive.

[Fairtax4me]

If you want to drive it to Richmond, I have a shed with a wood stove and we can do the job together. That is, if the car is currently driveable.

 

Mike

 

Driveable but barely. I'm kind of surprised I can still drive it to work. If I give it over about 35% throttle it will start slipping. It gets worse at higher speeds, especially if the engine rpm is over 2500 where the power band really starts to pick up. I don't think it could fight the wind on the interstate, and trying to make it up any hill is tense. I keep watching the tachometer and hoping that it doesn't start climbing while the car is slowing down.

 

I appreciate the offer though.

[idosubaru]

Man, that stinks terribly. I had to drop a transmission (actually a complete 5 speed swap) on a 10 degree day. A nice heavy insulated jump suit was awesome. Wasn't that bad (but there wasn't any wind ) Get some old carpet or padding to lay down under the car and roll around on. Might find yourself napping

 

Driveable but barely. I'm kind of surprised I can still drive it to work. If I give it over about 35% throttle it will start slipping. It gets worse at higher speeds, especially if the engine rpm is over 2500 where the power band really starts to pick up. I don't think it could fight the wind on the interstate, and trying to make it up any hill is tense. I keep watching the tachometer and hoping that it doesn't start climbing while the car is slowing down.

 

I appreciate the offer though.