Suicide by timing belt Please Help!

[Jaimesbeam]

I must have been a bad boy this year...

 

My previous car rusted to death early in December. I finally found a very nice 1999 Outback to replace it just before Xmas. I drove it down to RI to visit family and pick up a carload of wine bottles. It committed suicide by timing belt just outside of Boston. One of the idler pulleys failed and burned it's way through the timing belt cover. It lasted less then a week! I guess it was too good to be true!

 

Had it towed to a shop in Cambridge; they pronounced it DOA, with damage

to the valves and heads; not worth repairing. It would cost $1000 to get it

towed back to Maine. I ended up having to rent a minivan to get back to Maine, and basically abandon the car in Boston. It's a big problem with the AWD that you can't tow the car, you need a flatbed!

 

So, is there anything I can do to get this car fixed? Replace the engine for $2000? Can just the heads be replaced? I put all my money into the car, and towing, car rental, repairs; so now I'm broke and I still don't have a car to get to work!

 

Jim Baranskl, Shalom Orchard Winery, Franklin ME

[86subaru]

find a good used 2.2 motor

[john in KY]

If you remove the rear driveshaft the car can be moved using a tow dolly.

[The Dude]

How did the shop assess the damage to your engine? Did they remove the heads and physically inspect them?

[idosubaru]

The shop is wrong. But not intentionally. Often with interference engines you could sustain severe damage - cylinder walls, pistons, etc. They probably don't want to get into all that and are scared of the price tag.

 

But that's not the case with this engine. Although it's an interference engine it will only sustain valve damage, none of the more catastrophic stuff. That's not really a big deal, basically just a head gasket job which isn't a bad idea to do anyway on this motor.

 

I'd say do this job right, put the money in it and you're good for another 100,000 miles. Dealer charges about $1,200 for a head gasket job - usually you can get an indepedent (preferrably with subaru experience) to do it for about that plus they'll do the timing belt and pulleys for you.

 

*** In the future - realize timing belts need replaced and replacing the pulleys is a good idea too because of this. Even if it's within mileage it's still a 10+ year old vehicle.

 

Notes:

 

Use Subaru only head gaskets for this EJ25 motor.

 

Replace all the timing pulleys, ebay has kits that are far more reasonable than buying them from Subaru.

 

Any seals that are replaced (Cam and crank) should be Subaru only as well. Higher quality and better materials.

 

Online Subaru stores offer substantial discounts.

[Qman]

There are a number of Subaru people in the NE. I would recommend repair. It is a good vehicle. The motor is reliable once you get it back up. The heads will need work. Valve replacement is mandatory. May not need all replaced but usually at least half. OEM gaskets are indeed a must. Get the heads resurfaced while the valve job is being done.

 

Definitely look for an independant Subaru repair facility to do this. Dealer second. And, I would try to avoid someone who doesn't work on a Subaru regularly.

 

Did you buy this from a private party or dealer?

[Fairtax4me]

If you got the car from a dealer, did you buy it with any kind of warranty coverage or "As Is"? Most dealers will include a 2 months/2000 mile powertrain warranty on cars sold at retail. Of course if you got it from a private seller then You just get to eat the cost.

 

But I second finding a Subaru repair shop in the vicinity of Boston. Bent valves aren't that bad to get fixed. And you might spend $1200 to get it back on the road with new timing parts and head gaskets (Rather than $2000+ on an engine in unknown shape), and have a car that's ready to go another 100k miles.

[Jaimesbeam]

Interesting question about how old the timing belt was before everything went

exploded. I had bought the car in a private sale, and had it inspected before a bought it. It was in good shape. The car has 202K on the odometer; and it had 185K written on the timing belt cover. My mechanic's supposition was that the motor had been replaced, and the 185K marking was from a junkyard. I

believe that the timing belt was changed at 185K.

 

When the car was towed to the shop in Cambridge, they looked at it, and the

timing belt was whole and in good shape. The problem was that the lower right (looking at the engine from the front) idler pulley self destructed and burned a hole out through the timing belt cover, leaving the bearing hub behind. The left lower idler pulley bearing was noisy too.

 

I think the mechanic who did the timing belt replacement at 185K cheaped out, and just replaced the belt; not the idlers. I'm going to have the mech there check the VIN on the car and the motor, and see if it's the original motor.

 

So what do you think about just getting replacement heads?

 

Jim.

[frogstar7055]

You don't need replacement heads,get them crack checked,new valves,resurfaced,put it back together with new belt and associated hardware.

 

Will last another 100k at LEAST.

[Jaimesbeam]

Can anyone tell me how the turning the head pulleys should/should not act if they are turned by hand? Which pulleys turn which valves?

 

I tried turning the two top pulleys. The left one wouldn't turn at all, the right

one will turn a little bit and then stop. I didn't try the the bottom pulleys.

 

BTW, running the engine without the timing belt, will ruin the valves; yet part of the diagnostic procedure to figure out if it's the timing belt seems to be (at some point) to try to start the engine; won't that do more damage?

 

Thanks, Jim.

[Jaimesbeam]

Does the engine need to be removed to do a valve job?

 

Thanks, Jim.

[Fairtax4me]

Does the engine need to be removed to do a valve job?

Not necessary to remove the engine, but some shops do it for better access.

 

 

Can anyone tell me how the turning the head pulleys should/should not act if they are turned by hand? Which pulleys turn which valves?

 

I tried turning the two top pulleys. The left one wouldn't turn at all, the right

one will turn a little bit and then stop. I didn't try the the bottom pulleys.

 

Did you try to turn the cams with a wrench? You only get about 1/3 turn by hand then the pressure from the valve springs will prevent you from turning it any further. Doing it with a wrench gives you better leverage.

[Jaimesbeam]

There's a tiny chip (less then 50% width & 50% thickness of a tooth) on the upper right cam/valve gear/sprocken/pulley. Is this significant?

 

Thanks, Jim.

[Fairtax4me]

Depends on if it has sharp edges. But probably not a big deal.

[Jaimesbeam]

OK, the shop it's at in Cambridge doesn't want to put any more work into it; they are not willing to remove the heads and look at him etc.

 

Can anyone suggest a Subaru mechanic who's willing to tray and resurrect this car for me?

 

Thanks, Jim

[Jaimesbeam]

Well, I gave Foreign Auto Union, in Reading MA a call. They said it would take

$1,800 to do a valve job and timing belt job. The guy I talked to was a bit evasive and hard to pin down. I asked what was the least I would have to spend to find out what the damage was. He said that the engine would have to come out, and there may be piston or cylinder damage; which was not what I asked him! I said that I didn't see that removing the engine fit into doing as little as possible to find out what the damage is! It seems that he's set on it costing $1,800 no matter how little the damage is; and if he says $1,800 now,

it;s likely it will end up costing me over $2,000, as much as possible!

 

I hope that someone can give me an alternative referral! I don't want to try to run this by PepBoys or some such! And I would rather not junk the car, but it's hard to justify spending $2,000 on the engine repairs!

 

Thanks for all your advice.

 

Jim

[Fairtax4me]

Unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast. You want a shop to work on your car, you gotta pay up. :-\

 

Most shops don't know how to get the heads off of these engines without pulling the engine. It's possible, dealers do it all the time. But going to a dealer means spending dealer $$$$.

 

Doubtful that you'll have cylinder wall damage. I'd try calling around to a few more shops in that area and see what you can come up with.

I figured by now somebody would have pitched in with the name of a good shop in Boston, or close by, that could it for a fair price.

[Jaimesbeam]

Well, I had the car towed to a shop recommended to me by an associate of an old friend, Bob Donalds.

 

Bob had a business rebuilding (to put it lightly) aircooled VW engines, near Boston. He was known across the country a "Boston Bob". He rebuilt three VW engines in my fleet of VWs'. At one time or another I've had every aircolled VW except a Ghia; Squareback, Bug, Van, Camper, Truck. Usually

I had one at a time, but I had to give them up when I bought the farm here in

Maine. Unfortunately Bob died of cancer a couple of years ago.

 

So, I had my car towed to Don's Auto Repair, 19 Heard St. Waltham ME 02453. He replaced the pulley that left for parts unknown, put the timing belt back on, and started it up. He says it runs ok, a little noisy at idle, but runs fine at speed; maybe it wouldn't have as good performance as before. He said I *could* probably drive it up to Maine, and have someone up here do the timing belt job, and maybe a valve job later.

 

I'd prefer to have him do a complete timing belt service before I drive it

anywhere. I looked at the timing belt kit offered on ebay by import experts.

$200 for the belt, new pulleys and tensioner. Shouldn't I have him do the water pump too? Weren't there a bunch of seals that should be replaced as well? How much am I really saving by buying the parts on ebay? $100?

It will take several days to get the parts, (for a 1999 DOHC 2.5 Subaru Outback), which I'm not in a hurry, but I don't know how long he wants my

car hanging around his shop.

 

What do you think? This is great news to me! I'm pretty pissed at the other mechanics who were ready to junk the whole car, or replace the whole engine for $$$$ without seeing if the engine would run at all?!?!?!

 

Thanks, Jim.

[Gloyale]

What do you think? This is great news to me! I'm pretty pissed at the other mechanics who were ready to junk the whole car, or replace the whole engine for $$$$ without seeing if the engine would run at all?!?!?!

 

Thanks, Jim.

 

First thing I always do when a car comes in with a busted or slipped belt, is to hang a used belt and pulley(s) as needed on it and see how it runs, test compression, etc......

 

I'd say almost half of those I get in, espescially phase II SOHC engines, the owners are lucky and everything runs fine (doesn't mean nothing hit, just nothing hit that bad)

 

But it makes no sense at all to junk it before trying that.

 

on another note, IMO that DOHC subaru Engines are very difficult to properly do a head job on with the engine in the car. Most shops are well within reason to want to pull the motor to do that job. I always do.

[WoodsWagon]

Doing a cylinder leakdown test would tell you if the valves were bent and leaking. Slightly bent and leaky valves= burned exhaust valves later. But it doesn't matter much. Run it for a while, don't bother dicking with replaceing T-belt stuff. If it's running rough at idle it's probably got some bent valves. To fix it you'll have to have the heads off. The motor will be out on a stand anyway at that point so it's easy to do all the t-belt stuff. Just drive it and see if it sets misfire codes.

[ccrinc]

If/when you get the car back to Maine, Warren Auto Service in Warren, ME knows Subarus very well. As far as I know they are honest, reliable and knowledgeable.

 

Emily

http://www.ccrengines.com

[Jaimesbeam]

I'm sure it's easier to do the timing belt and remove the heads and do a valve job once the engine is out of the car.

 

My problem is someone saying 'Oh it's easier to pull the engine, that will cost you an extra $500 - $1000!'. If it's *easier*, then it shouldn't cost more. If it's *necessary*, then it's necessary, and you bite the bullet and pay the bill!

 

Someone told me it's hard to do a compression test, or even change the spark plugs with the engine in the car...

 

Jim.

[Jaimesbeam]

So, should I do the water pump and (?crank & cam?) seals at the same time?

 

Import Export says they can't send the parts I paid for on Ebay to Boston!

That's an extra wrinkle that will take more time!

 

The cam seals I suppose can be replaced if I need a valve job.

 

Now the theory is that the car had had the timing belt changed 20K mile before, but they did not replace the pulleys, and it was a pulley that failed that caused all the problems!

 

Is there any way I could tell if they had replaced the water pump?

 

Thanks, Jim.

[johnceggleston]

 

Is there any way I could tell if they had replaced the water pump?

 

Thanks, Jim.

 

the only real way to tell is to look at your bill.

 

if i were you, i'd get this car home before i did a lot more than absolutely necessary. you may find on the drive home that it does not run quite as well as you were led to believe and it needs more work. which means opening it up again.

 

replace the busted parts, or even all the pulleys, (you can reuse them) and drive it home. under this theory, the water pump would be a good idea unless you have a record that the pump is new. as long as you are keeping the engine, parts are not a bad investment.

 

if the seals are leaking replace them but if not hold off. there is still a chance you may need work when you get it home.

 

the other way to go is to do the bare minimum just to get it home. knowing you will redo it all, labor wise when you get home.

[vic/se]

Does the engine need to be removed to do a valve job?

 

Thanks, Jim.

 

To do a valve job? only the heads, and that goes for any engine!