05 Outback AWD tricky on some winter roads

[lasersailor2010]

I love Subarus, and 5-speed 03 Baja provides superb control in all conditions.

 

05 Outback, with automatic transmission, great in 3 seasons and on rain and snow but freaks us out on variable winter roads i.e. those with either black ice, or mix of clear pavement and snow cover, mostly just below freezing.

 

AWD works perfectly in challenging conditions, e.g. lots of snow on highway, but in mixed conditions just described, it's scary as awd system seems to transfer power from side to side - despite us not having the VDC option. Both hands on the wheel, and slow speed (40 mph) essential, because it wrests control of the vehicle out of the driver's hands!!

 

Ottawa's Ogilvie Motors had a fantastic mechanic named Alain, won all kinds of Subaru mechanic contests, but then left to an independent garage that we can't find.

 

Has ANYONE ELSE EXPERIENCED FREAKY LACK-OF-CONTROL ISSUES on black ice or mixed snow/asphalt roads? Any solutions, including replacing any of the awd electronics that could be causing this weirdness?

 

Many thanks in advance!

[bheinen74]

over 100 people have had this happen on the 05+ outbacks.

There is a almost 50 page thread right here on this.

 

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11267&highlight=dangerous+ice

 

sorry, it seems to be a design flaw. and the more you load up the car, the worse it gets. I had my 2 dogs in the back and that was enough weight to cause chaos. That is not right.

Lots of people say its alignment out of spec, or improper tires, or tire psi, VLSD, VDC, wind, or shocks worn, or bad driver.

Its none of those, not in my opinion. all my other Subarus 83 GL, 85Brat, 92 SS, 92SVX, 94 TW, never had this issue on the same types of roads. The older scoobs were rock solid, stable as a snowmobile on all conditions, and they never had dedicated snows, and could be loaded to the hilt, or not loaded at all . Too bad they ruined it.

 

It seems those that do not report the issue, just simply have not driven it on the types of ice that cause it. They are fine in snow, snow powder and slush. But cannot maintain a speed of 40 safely while truckers, yugos, neons, and those with worn summer tires pass going 55 not having trouble. When it happens, it like the whole back end, both rear tires, are on marbles with someone pushing the car left to right on the back windows. everyone says slow down for the conditions, well none of the other older soobies needed to do anything other than just drive reasonably..

 

Putting 2 dogs in the back, or putting a suit case in the back with a couple kids, should not throw off the alignment so much to cause what it is causing. Subaru dropped the ball on the 05-09, and seemingly tried alignment corrections and a TSB

 

(TSB 05-36-07)

 

for after 07 models, but still could not get it right, and thus, the 2010 Outback gets you know what: total redesign of the suspension, but yet SOA does not acknowledge a problem when over 100 people have the problem.

 

sad day for 05+ outback owners, as a designer should have tested this car with a 50 pound bag of dog food in the back, and a few adult passengers in the back seat on icy covered mixed roads. Adding normal weight to a car is normal, but making the car a death trap in doing so, that is the 05+ outback.

 

Ralph Nader is needed, and no, 100+ people having the problem is REAL.

Driving slower is not the solution, when you are already at 40mph and the car is doing wierd motions in the back, and 99% of the others on the same road, same lanes, are not having control issues, they are cruising at 55-60 and almost all the cars are mashing the brakes to not rearend granny in the uncontrollable swaying Outback.

 

ah, so you say get dedicated snows. My other older soobs did not need them to be controllable, the other cars on the same icy road do not have dedicated snow and they have no problem.

 

I might suggest engineers chasing Headgasket problems and the solutions to the blown HG for a few years lead to less study on suspension stuffs.

Edited January 5, 2010 by bheinen74

[charm]

Driving slower usually helps me maintain control in those situations. If 1 wheel lets go, there's only so much that the AWD systems can compensate for. From there it's all about driving at a speed where the wheel isn't wrenched out of the driver's hands.

[nipper]

Why do people think cars can do miracles on black ice?

 

They cant unless the tires have studs in them.

 

 

On the mixed surface, what kind of tires are you using? Are they properly inflated?

 

 

nipper

[Qman]

Why do people think cars can do miracles on black ice?

 

They cant unless the tires have studs in them.

 

 

On the mixed surface, what kind of tires are you using? Are they properly inflated?

 

 

nipper

 

That is where I'd start. Proper tires!

[cagranitz]

I would also agree with having the proper tires (studless or studded snows).

 

It sounds to me like the Subaru engineers might have designed the 05+ suspension to try to encourage more people to get the proper tires for winter driving

[Rooster2]

Agree with others, it is really a tire problem. Using snow tires, or better yet, studded snow tires, do a lot to reduce tire spin in really slick conditions.

 

The "tallness" of Subie Outbacks and SUVs make the vehicles more top heavy then earlier Subies, which were passenger cars, also makes for trickier handling.

[CNY_Dave]

Sounds like the classic 05+ ghostwalking, which occurs at low speeds as well as 'fast' speeds (occurs at speeds low enough that other cars are passing the 05 like it's standing still), and which can be reduced with better tires and a 'proper' rear alignment, but is basically a design flaw. One poster got relief from replacing some of the rear link bushings which were softer than normal, it seemed.

 

Lots of folks have posted their experiences in the referenced thread, and one thing is clear- its *not* from going too fast for the conditions.

 

 

Dave

[bheinen74]

I thought about this alot last night, like no sleep.

I think, its maybe result of the VLSD, and poor design.

 

The way i see it, both rear wheels are turning locked together due to VLSD, and you get one rear wheel on ice, but its turning due to LSD, and then when the other side gets on ice (both rear tire on ice), the driveshaft it still trying to do 90% front, 10% rear in the autos, and 50/50 in the Manuals, and neither of the rear tires are getting traction, when both are on ice. The front end of the car is still stable due to open diff, but the back, well, there you have it.

Drag on one rear tire due to traction, and less drag on the other rear tire due to ice, its like someone is doing "left/right" braking on the wheel over ice.

 

I would like to compile the database on the other site and make a note of those that have the problem, how many have the VLSD, which was standard on 05-07 but optional after i believe.

 

Still though, loading the car should give better traction, not worse, and this problem is not likely to occur in unloaded car, thus that is my evidence of design flaw.

[bheinen74]

report your problems here with nhtsa

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

 

takes about 5 minutes to report, have your VIN number ready

 

Also, you can search on the left sidebar, search safety complaints on this, and there are many for the 2005 and 2006 outback.

 

This problem is real guys/gals

[nipper]

I dont get something. The roads are icey, the car is having traction issues for whatever reason. Yet someone is complaining that other drivers are passing him?

 

Thats not the point of safe winter driving. The point of it is to drive at a speed you feel safe in the car, not the speed you want to drive at. i have people pass me all the time on the parkways around here, and 70% of the time a few miles up the road the wrong end of the car is pointed to the sun.

 

 

nipper

[CNY_Dave]

I dont get something. The roads are icey, the car is having traction issues for whatever reason. Yet someone is complaining that other drivers are passing him?

 

Thats not the point of safe winter driving. The point of it is to drive at a speed you feel safe in the car, not the speed you want to drive at. i have people pass me all the time on the parkways around here, and 70% of the time a few miles up the road the wrong end of the car is pointed to the sun.

 

 

nipper

 

I don't think you're quite understanding the root cause of the problem- the suspension geometry in the rear is actually throwing the rear of the car left and right.

 

Every other subaru ever made, any tires, any loading conditions, this problem does not occur.

 

2005 with a bit of a load in the back, and the butt of the car wags all over the place, and you pretty much can't go slow enough to make it stop. No load, and the problem does not occur.

 

 

 

Dave

[MtnBikerChk]

 

Ralph Nader is needed, and no, 100+ people having the problem is REAL.

 

You know I don't know if this is a real problem or not - but this makes me chuckle...... how many vehicles with this "problem" were sold between the 2005 and 2009 model year?

 

and over 100 people have reported this issue! So it must be real!

 

Too bad this isn't a category in the Consumer Reports ratings!

[Fairtax4me]

I think I have seen this. Not experienced it personally in car, but I noticed something in a few of the newer Outbacks driving around on our hard packed snow streets from the 2 feet of snow we got before Christmas.

 

There were really only 4 days or so when the streets were in really bad shape. And let me tell you they were BAD. Upwards of 6 inches of hard pack on either side and in the center of each lane. Then the tracks made by cars compressing the hard pack even further were about 2 inches deeper in most places. So there were 2 "channels", about 18" wide, in each lane where people tires had compressed the snow into extremely hard packed "ice". I'll put it this way, It was breaking the blades on the plows VDOT uses in this area.

 

I got out and drove around several times and if the car wasn't dead center in the middle of the lane you were driving, it would bounce and fishtail off of the edges created in these channels of ice. But if you kept the car in the middle it was smooth sailing. Took trips in my Legacy and my mothers Camry and they both felt basically the same when driving straight at an even speed. I don't think I ever went over 40mph though. Most of the time it was 35 or under.

 

Here's what I mean by "seen". Subaru is a prevalent brand in my area. (next to Volvo, Toyota, and BMW of all things) There are a ton of them here, my neighbor has an 09 OBW, other neighbors on the street have first and second gen Legacys. While out and about driving around you can't help but notice all of the Subarus on the road, especially in rough weather. I did see several 2005+ Outbacks out during the few days when the roads had practically not even been touched. On one occasion I ended up following one on Route 29 here down the "main drag" Rt. 29 here in town. The road is straight, 4 lanes on either side, speed limit 45, but traffic was only going 35 at most. This particular Outback, which was a wagon, appeared to "twitch" sporadically as it was driving along. I would expect to hit a rough spot in the road in a few seconds after seeing this and prepare... nothing. My car wouldn't flinch. After about 2 or 3 minutes of watching this I decided it was worth it to pass this car because I figured they must not have known what they were doing. I prefer to be in front of a car that is potentially about to spin out of control at any moment.

 

After reading about this "Ghost walk" phenomena I think that is what this person was experiencing. The car was traveling straight, in the center of the lane, not near the ridges of snow in the center and on either side of the lane. Speed was constant around 35mph except for stopping at a few lights along the way. I didn't notice this during acceleration or braking, only when the car was at speed. Very strange to watch this. If you're the type of person that pays attention to what other drivers and vehicles are doing (you should be, it's called defensive driving) you could just about swear the driver was just inexperienced. Like they were making erratic moves or corrections that were hazardous for the road conditions.

 

After reading about all of this I almost want to drive one to see how it reacts for myself.

[lasersailor2010]

I thought about this alot last night, like no sleep.

I think, its maybe result of the VLSD, and poor design.

 

The way i see it, both rear wheels are turning locked together due to VLSD, and you get one rear wheel on ice, but its turning due to LSD, and then when the other side gets on ice (both rear tire on ice), the driveshaft it still trying to do 90% front, 10% rear in the autos, and 50/50 in the Manuals, and neither of the rear tires are getting traction, when both are on ice. The front end of the car is still stable due to open diff, but the back, well, there you have it.

Drag on one rear tire due to traction, and less drag on the other rear tire due to ice, its like someone is doing "left/right" braking on the wheel over ice.

 

I would like to compile the database on the other site and make a note of those that have the problem, how many have the VLSD, which was standard on 05-07 but optional after i believe.

 

Still though, loading the car should give better traction, not worse, and this problem is not likely to occur in unloaded car, thus that is my evidence of design flaw.

 

The smilie says "banana dance", and that's what we're doing at our house tonight, having logged on to read your awesome statements about the real issue we've experienced, and my wife's now sure she didn't dream this up!

 

As for the tire question, we've had good Michelin snows every year, and pbly under 4000 miles/year so maybe 16000-20000 thus far, still lots of tread.

 

Based on your personal experience that conforms to ours, and the site references you provide, it's good to know the weakness/flaw is REAL. It's clear that (SOA and Sub Canada) have been in denial - so we may just sell the darn car now, and buy a used Highlander (how boring, after the fun of an Outback, most of the year, including gravel roads to the cottage), OR - pbly shouldn't - fork out $$ for a new 2010 Outback. It just seems wrong to let them make another sale when they never addressed the '05 problem, over the 5-year 05-09 period. And re conspiracy theories, surely Edmunds, Road & Track, Car & Driver and others must have been aware of this scary loss-of-control issue, but not wanted to spoil SOA's sales?? Unbelievable - THANKS FOR CONFIRMING SITUATION!!

 

Some other thoughts, Subaru Master:

 

1) Re your comments about VLSD, our car was "base model", no traction control button, which I think meant no stability system. For extra $ the Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC) option was available, and those cars had a switch to turn off VDC if desired. What's VLSD please?

 

2) Switching to Sport setting on transmission wouldn't help, because it's not an electronic ABS or VDC systems issue, in fact it's suspension geometry?

 

3) Is it worth asking dealer to check rear bushings in case, after 63000 miles, including gravel roads, they've become mushy so more rigid replacement ones could give us some improvement?

 

4) We had thought it was systems-related, so maybe a manual transmission would have given the driver the control we thought systems were taking away - but again, if your flawed rear suspension geometry is the issue, then 50/50 manual weight distribution or 90/10 initial distribution for automatic, won't change a thing? OR, given your 9 a.m. posting after much thought, do you think the 50/50 power distribution of the std transmission would resolve the issue - we could start looking for a manual ...

 

5) Could the pblm be with jacked-up Outback, and not exist on lower Legacy

 

6) Does same rear suspension weakness apply to the Tribeca? We'd been considering flipping Outback for a 2006 or 7 Tribeca, but now fear that with the same underpinnings, the same winter control weakness would persist?

 

7) You still have your 05, and just travel light or avoid slippery conditions?

 

So we just "grin and bare it", or pass the pblm to somebody else by selling - what a bummer, when the car is so much fun in every other way. This is SO irresponsible of Subaru, given their reputation for control in the snow - all the folks in New Hampshire who've been driving them since the 1960's!

 

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR INVALUABLE FEEDBACK!

[WoodsWagon]

The problem seems to be corrected by having the rear wheel allignment reset to the new specs. From what I read on the other forum that was linked to the rear toe is adjusted out, because with more weight it toes in further. Most of the people that had realigned the rear suspension reported that the problem was gone.

[bheinen74]

The problem seems to be corrected by having the rear wheel allignment reset to the new specs. From what I read on the other forum that was linked to the rear toe is adjusted out, because with more weight it toes in further. Most of the people that had realigned the rear suspension reported that the problem was gone.

 

nope, its not the fix. many reports of having it still happen after the new aligment specs. It does improve it, until you drive on ice again

BIG PROBLEM guys, admit it, and post how to fix it, there is no fix, besides getting rid of the car., or parking it in the winter time.

There are reports of it with new Blizzaks even.

Did anyone search the nhtsa database on reports for this?

 

Also, I complained of being passed on ICE because i was going 40 and the vehicle COULD not go any speedier, on I-80, ALL OTHER CARS, TRUCKS, were able to achieve 65 or more without a problem. It was a slow moving speed problem which is not safe, when other cars are coming up behind and almost wrecking because of the only slow vehicle was a Subaru Outback with ghostwalk, a member on here says the same thing.

 

Fairtax4me, yep, you have followed a car that was having this happen too. You saw it, its a terrible waste of a otherwise decent car. It was not the drive of the car being inexperienced, it was just the engineering of the car you saw it behave like they normally do.

 

CNYdave, thank you for also providing your info and insight

 

Oh, and one more bit of facts: This affects US and Canada spec Outbacks 05+ only, it does not affect JDM or European spec Outbacks, where Subaru did address the problem by giving them "load leveling" suspension.

Edited January 6, 2010 by bheinen74

[unibrook]

Dave! Howzit bro?? you must be buried in snow there!

Good opp to give your subie a workout.

Nat

 

Sounds like the classic 05+ ghostwalking, which occurs at low speeds as well as 'fast' speeds (occurs at speeds low enough that other cars are passing the 05 like it's standing still), and which can be reduced with better tires and a 'proper' rear alignment, but is basically a design flaw. One poster got relief from replacing some of the rear link bushings which were softer than normal, it seemed.

 

Lots of folks have posted their experiences in the referenced thread, and one thing is clear- its *not* from going too fast for the conditions.

 

 

Dave

[RallyKeith]

It's obviously hard for anyone to properly comment or diagnose with having experienced the problem first hand, so obviuosly what I'm about to say is just to provoke more thought and provide perspective.

 

So far a lot of the conversations have focused on changing grip levels. At first I was going to post up that people should go find someone with an STi and take it to an autocross on dry pavement. Everything described can be felt in an STi with the Mechanical LSD Rear Diff, Locked Center Diff, and VLSD Front Diff. It's a serious job wrestling the steering wheel as the grip levels change in a random parking lot as each different wheel gets and loses grip.

 

But then I was rereading this and two things came to mind.

#1 Is this happening when coasting or neutral on the throttle, or is it only when trying to accelerate or decelerated?

 

#2, This honestly reminds me of when I built a Honda del Sol for autocross. I installed new struts and lowering springs on the car and then took it for an alignment. It was raining, and I couldn't go over 40mph with out the rear end of the car stepping out BIG time. Why? Because the rear wheels toed out when the car sat lower.....

 

So anyhow, sounds like there could be a couple factors adding up to one bad outcome.

 

Keith

[bheinen74]

it happens when driving a steady state speed, holding a steady speed on flat road. No decelerating, or accelerating, just trying to hold a constant speed, no brakes, etc.

 

I dont' doubt its toe issue related, but why did Subaru design a vehicle that toe gets so upset with a 50pound bag of dog food added?

[CNY_Dave]

Dave! Howzit bro?? you must be buried in snow there!

Good opp to give your subie a workout.

Nat

 

We get about 3 inches a day where I live, so far there hasn't been one big fall all at once. A bit north, they get a foot a day from the lake effect snow (snowmobile mecca, 50 mi to the north of syracuse).

 

But yeah, it gets quite a workout, I go for a spin around the yard (hills etc) if need be.

 

We got dreck out of the big storm, you probably have more in one fall than me.

 

Dave

[griffenrider]

Folks experiencing this problem might consider adding a much stiffer sway bar or stiffer springs to the rear suspension before spending several 10s of thousands on a different vehicle.

 

Here's my theory: This swaying is not a traction issue, but a resonant-frequency issue in the suspension. Below about 40mph, the shock absorbers in the system can suck up enough energy to keep the oscillations below a noticeable threshold. If that's true, the problem should get exponentially worse the faster you go, which it sounds like it does. Varying traction on the back wheels will cause slight changes in the direction of force at the wheels compared to the center of mass of the car, which is effectively the same as shifting the center of mass of the car from side to side. If the surface is varying traction and the wheels aren't completely 100% solidly attached to the ground, like when you pass over a patch of black ice with one wheel, then the friction coefficient you have to worry about with the ground is no longer static friction, it's the kinetic friction coefficient. That force you get from that wheel, therefore, depends on the instantaneous load of the wheel, which, with a shifting CM, will vary.

 

In the interests of explanation to folks who don't spend their lives on this forum, car suspension is designed to do a few basic things: 1) absorb bumps by moving up and down, 2) remain stiff (not move) during turns and other "slow forcing" events (like starting from a stop, etc.), and 3) support the mass of the car on the wheels. The forcing I just described would fall somewhere between category 1 and 2, it's wouldn't be nearly as fast as hitting a bump, but would be faster than the jerk (time rate-of-change of acceleration) of going around a turn or starting from a stop (I'm ignoring race-style driving. . .). The length and stiffness of suspension springs are adjusted so that the car at "expected normal load" is 1/3 or 1/2 compressed. The lockout pressure of the shock is adjusted to differentiate between cases (1) and (2), with the tradeoff that higher lockout pressures (stiffer in turns, etc.), also makes the shock less able to respond as quickly to bumps in the road. Little adjustments here make big differences in road feel.

 

With the 05-09 model, Subaru increased the mass of the car, raised the car, and changed the wheelbase of the car, all of which change the natural frequencies in the car. They also, in an effort to capture some of the SUV/crossover market, softened the shocks to attract the hummer-in-suburbia-terrified-of-potholes market, who don't go around corners fast pretty much ever, so wouldn't notice a little body roll in day-to-day driving. However, like any damped-spring system, there are always frequencies that aren't damped out well. In case anyone's thinking that this couldn't possibly happen, recall your childhood when you and your 3 friends sitting in the back of mom's car could get it sway back and forth a lot by jumping side to side at red lights. Also see: washboarding on dirt roads, and that annoying buzz in basically every car with a V engine at certain RPMs. Obviously, the suspension is a lot more complicated than a simple spring & piston assembly, but the general principles still apply, including the resonant frequency one.

 

So, with that lockout ratio adjustment, the increased mass, and the shifting CM issue described earlier, the varying load on the suspension when the car is just driving down the lane under certain very specific conditions hits a resonant frequency with the suspension system and you start getting sideways oscillations.

 

Changing the wheel toe angle a little will cause the wheels to pull/push sideways slightly more (or less, depending on which direction you toe it), The amount of pull is related to the speed you're driving, and would function to increases the static lateral load on the shocks at higher speeds. Unfortunately, it also increases the rate of tire wear, so they can't make too much of a change. With a higher lateral load, the shifting CM/force vector issue is diminished (but not eliminated). The adjustment should allow you to put a bit more weight in the back, or drive a bit faster, but the problem would still surface at some point. I imagine the subaru engineers adjusted it as much as they could without causing tire wear issues, but the problem still exists at a lower speed than Joe Average with the average load feels comfortable driving in mixed conditions.

 

Now, the big assumption: IF IF IF IF IF IF the above is correct (that's a judgement you'll have to make for yourself), the correction to the problem should be to modify the suspension characteristics of the rear shock. Adding a stiffer sway bar should do it, so should any number of aftermarket shocks, or adding a strut bar. If you're super mechanically inclined and have a welding shop, moving one or more knuckle joints should also do it. A slightly stiffer spring should have the same effect as the toe-angle increase (and combined with the toe angle increase might push the problem well above normal driving speeds).

 

BE WARNED: Keep in mind that the suspension system is a highly tuned subcomponent, and the subaru engineers are some of the best engineers in the automobile industry. It sounds like they made a mistake and didn't run the particular (very specific) model that would have caught this. Modifying your vehicle suspension is going to fundamentally alter how your car behaves on the road. It's going to roll in corners slightly more or less, it's going to bounce a little more or less over potholes and bumps, and it's going to respond with slightly differently to steering corrections. You probably wouldn't notice it consciously unless you're paying attention specifically, but do us all a favor and drive your car as if you aren't familiar with it (like you would a rental) for a bit after you make this fix.

[hankosolder2]

Griffenrider,

 

I'm not going to claim that I have as sophisticated understanding of suspension systems as you do, but two "laymen's" thoughts. I may have misunderstood your point.

 

Wouldn't a stiffer rear sway bar make the car more oversteer prone though? Seems like the wrong direction to go in a "squirrelly rear end" situation.

 

It also seems like if it was a problem with the suspension resonating at a specific frequency, it would be very speed dependent and you could press on and drive past the "twitchy" speed. (I'm NOT advising trying that...I'm just saying that no one has noted that the problem gets better when you go faster.)

 

I'm inclined to guess (and this is a guess) that the suspension has excessive toe change as the wheel travels up and down... so it's primarily a geometry issue. The toe would change less with stiffer springs, as the suspension would be closer to its normal position when the car was loaded, so that could mitigate the problem to an extent. Once again, stiffer rear springs would shift the handling balance more towards oversteer, so it'd probably be best to up the spring rates at all four corners and realign the car.

[bigjeep]

I am shocked reading these posts about this problem! I have a 2009 3.0R Subie and live in the snow covered land of the Poconos, so I get to drive in snow quite often. I have had to make emergency trips to the hospital a few times. Almost ever trip is up or down a hill. I must say, I have not experianced this problem, unless I wasn't paying attention! I have had a few Subies in my time going back to 1981. The one "problem?" with all these Subies I would have to say is in un-plowed high snow the Subies will sway back in forth and are hard to control, but I have always assumed this was normal behaver driving in high snow with a light car. Had the same problem with my 1972 Artic snowmobile. :-\

[CNY_Dave]

I am shocked reading these posts about this problem! I have a 2009 3.0R Subie and live in the snow covered land of the Poconos, so I get to drive in snow quite often. I have had to make emergency trips to the hospital a few times. Almost ever trip is up or down a hill. I must say, I have not experianced this problem, unless I wasn't paying attention! I have had a few Subies in my time going back to 1981. The one "problem?" with all these Subies I would have to say is in un-plowed high snow the Subies will sway back in forth and are hard to control, but I have always assumed this was normal behaver driving in high snow with a light car. Had the same problem with my 1972 Artic snowmobile. :-\

 

Did you ever load the car? That seems to be a common precursor to the problem.

 

Also, seems snow is not an issue, but slick packed snow or ice.

 

Dave