Uberoo Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 has anyone made a sedan RWD?Did it change the "percieved" handling balance? When I bought the car and decided to use it as a daily driver instead of a parts car,I thought that because its a subaru gravel,snow,etc would be its second home.Not so much.The car is very skittery on gravel or snow,to the point that I rarely feel comfortable taking it past 45 on snow/gravel or 65 on pavement. Then it understeers like no other on snow or loose gravel.Not to mention it has snow tires all around.Granted they arn't brand new,but they are snow tires with like 90% tread.They arn't the modern slicks with sipes but the old school aggressive snow tires.I just don't understand what makes this FWD sedan so terrible on anything other than pavement.I mean my old 1990 Saab 900 did better in snow and gravel with 205/60/15 ultra high performance summer tires.Compared to the legacy's 185/70/14.Both cars are FWD and weigh about the same so whats the deal with the legacy? I was kinda thinking of converting the legacy to RWD so I could have some fun on gravel/pavement but Im wondering if it will change in any appreciable way how the car handles?will it still be skittery and plow through corners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobywagon Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Under and oversteer have to do with which end of the car has more grip. If the front end has more grip, the car will tend to oversteer. If the tail has more grip, the car will tend to understeer. frequently, "skittery" behavior is due to worn suspension parts. Worn suspension parts will change under/oversteer characteristics radically owing to sudden suspension angle changes due to slop in the various moving parts. Since your Legacy is FWD rather than AWD, converting to RWD will definitely change the overall balance of the car. You'll be adding a fair bit of weight to the rear of the car. However, I suspect this will not cure the skittish behavior you describe. I'd recommend checking all your suspension bushings, end links, ball joints, etc. first. If that all looks fine, then find about 100 lbs to throw in the trunk of the car and run around with that for a couple of days. See if that gets you more neutral responses from the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share Posted January 24, 2010 yesterday I had to help my friend out because he locked his keys in his car.His car is a Cobalt with snow tires up front and summer tires in the back.One would think that car would be a handful to drive.But with my car I couldn't even keep up because of the skittish behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Why wouldn't you just convert it to AWD?? OR buy an AWD Legacy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 FWD subarus suck in the snow. Sorry you found that out after you bought it. Convert to AWD, it all bolts in. Or sell it and buy an AWD one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 Im not really a fan of awd.Yea it has alot of traction but that traction yields over confidence.So then you go into a corner and the tires break loose in a big way.Then your screwed.. Although I may just buy an AWD 5 speed legacy sedan and see how that goes,because converting it to awd and then rwd at some latter time would take alot of work.Not to mention those rear struts are a pain in the a55... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 45 on gravel is awfully fast, as well on a snow covered road. Subarus are FWD with RWD added. It is easy to disable/remove the RWD part, but to make one RWD (can be done) but takes some work. Why not just buy a RWD vehicle? I know someone had converted one to Rear Wheel Drive someplace. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I've never driven a fwd legacy, but I've driven 2wd older subies, and my impreza can be put in 2wd or 4wd now, and I've always found them to handle quite well in 2wd -- obviously not like in 4wd or awd, but about as good as other front wheel drive cars. A little better than the honda accord (which admittedly had bad tires), not quite as good as the diesel rabbit. Sounds like it might be an issue with alighnment or struts or something???? I've also driven rwd pickups in snow and gravel.... more fun I guess, but control is usually not a word I'd use for it. I'd much rather have a front wheel drive subaru in loose stuff than a rwd vehicle. You do have to watch out for overconfidence in all wheel drive vehicles with higher horsepower engines (i.e. more than an EA82)... they can get going much faster than you have the ability to stop or steer, especially if you don't run studded snows. Did that with the legacy with all seasons on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Well depending upon the gravel at over 40 you can tire punctures too. I would go all over that front end, and my guess would be it has worn out parts making it twitchy. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yeah... 40mph on gravel is pretty fast. Not saying that I don't do it on roads that I drive alot and am familiar with... but you don't quite have 100% control even in a well tuned awd car with good tires. Up in WA, we'd have loaded log trucks doing 40 on gravel roads through the woods -- I remember following one in my old '82 GL and then looking down at the speedo being surprised I was going that fast... and I didn't have a 20 ton load held on by gravity behind me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I've personally driven a FWD legacy in Maine in the snow in winter. My GF's parents had one. She hated driving it in the snow. I hated driving it in the snow. Her Mom hated driving it in the snow. It also sucked in dirt and gravel. They push (understeer) really bad. I got them an Outback to replace it. It's much, much better. With an awd subaru if it pushes in the snow, you just get on the gas, the back end comes around and you power through the turn. Not to mention you can take off without massive wheelspin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yeah... 40mph on gravel is pretty fast. Not saying that I don't do it on roads that I drive alot and am familiar with... but you don't quite have 100% control even in a well tuned awd car with good tires. Up in WA, we'd have loaded log trucks doing 40 on gravel roads through the woods -- I remember following one in my old '82 GL and then looking down at the speedo being surprised I was going that fast... and I didn't have a 20 ton load held on by gravity behind me Nor tires with 1" deep treads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 how is 40 on a gravel road fast?thats the top of second gear.On the other hand I would say anytime you can use 4th (and be in the power band) thats fast on gravel. as for buying a rwd vehicle.Most are a bit too small to be practical for me.Rx7s,240s,180sx,etc Mustangs,camaros,and BMW's are ok,but the purchase price of a BMW is bad, so is the gas of a a v8 mustang/camaro.Which leaves 4 banger mustangs but most are beat to hell or have already been converted to V8. Other than an old volvo I don't know what else would be a practical daily driver.some RWD mini pickups but I already have a diesel powered mini pickup,and a diesel powered full size pickup so I can't get any more pickups.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I'd be suspect of the struts, if they are shot the front wheels won't have good contact with the road and the car will understeer. RWD subarus are fun but the balance isn't right. You can burn the tires off and do great donuts and be sideways everywhere with a LSD rear diff but it's not a handling improvement. I could drive my loyale faster in Fwd than Rwd, and faster still in 4wd. I tell you 40mph on dirt is nothing, you're not really pushing it till you're doing 65-70 or faster. Having friends holding onto the oh************ handle with a deathgrip and swearing helps. A 4wd powerslide at 60 beats anything a RWD or FWD can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) I see you 60 MPH 4 wheel drift and raise you a 60 mph RWD drift with a diesel powered fullsize truck with solid axles and leaf springs at each end. which bring me to my point something is wrong with the legacy if 50 is about all I feel safe driving it on gravel while my 3/4 ton CTD dodge pickup is stable and controllable at 60-65 ... beside I said that 40 mph is slow on gravel,it only starts getting fast when your at 3-4K in 4th on gravel..(which is about 60ish) Edited January 25, 2010 by Uberoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 which bring me to my point something is wrong with the legacy if 50 is about all I feel safe driving it on gravel while my 3/4 ton CTD dodge pickup is stable and controllable at 60-65 ... Is the truck 4wd? I've had dualie diesel Dodges up to 120, far more stable than any car. Is that really a suprise? And if something's wrong, go check it out. Everybody here has recommended checking suspension bushings and struts yet you've apparently done nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) I never said the truck was in 4wd while I was rallying it.just a big hulking RWD vehicle with 60/40 weight distribution. Edited January 25, 2010 by Uberoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 it seems like the tophats for the front are worn a bit.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 how is 40 on a gravel road fast?thats the top of second gear.On the other hand I would say anytime you can use 4th (and be in the power band) thats fast on gravel. Depends... is it a 1.5 lane gravel road with blind curves going up the canyon through the trees, or is it a straight 2 lane gravel road on the plains? I'm thinking the former when I say gravel road most of the time. What sort of diesel mini pickup? I've got a D50 turbodiesel, that I really like, though it's kind of disassembled right now adding a 6000lb winch and homemade grill guard to it, as well as electric cooling fans for the oil cooler and radiator while I've got teh front end taken apart. And maybe an intercooler... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Depends... is it a 1.5 lane gravel road with blind curves going up the canyon through the trees, or is it a straight 2 lane gravel road on the plains? I'm thinking the former when I say gravel road most of the time. ... Odd ive drven those plains roads (my nephew lives in bumbleflick South dakota) and gravel would have been welcomed . But then again they felt safe at 55. Loose gravel if you have make a manuver at speed over 40 can be a killer. Also Tires have better have thick belts in them, as gravel can be sharp, the higher the speed, the higher the chances of a puncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 What sort of diesel mini pickup? I've got a D50 turbodiesel, that I really like, though it's kind of disassembled right now adding a 6000lb winch and homemade grill guard to it, as well as electric cooling fans for the oil cooler and radiator while I've got teh front end taken apart. And maybe an intercooler... 1983 mazda b2200 with a perkins 2.2.It is also take apart right not.its fuel tank was dirty so I had to pull the bed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subynut Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 My 86 wagon had really bad understeer in FWD, in 4WD it was better, but still not great. It wasn't till I installed the rear LSD did the car become balanced in 4WD and did whatever I told it to do at 40-50 on dirt. In FWD, I wouldn't feel safe over 35, in 4WD w/Rear LSD, 50ish was my limit, but I think the car could have gone faster. I've driven a neon and an escort sedan in the dirt and the neon was understeer happy while the escort was very tail happy - both FWD. I also rode in a first gen 2dr ponitac sunfire - that was quite tail happy on gravel. He had quite a time keeping that thing straight. All depends on the suspension geometry and weight distribution, I guess. My truck, Ford 1-ton with open rear diff, is fine till I hit washboards then it's all over the place. Strange, sometimes the tail goes first, other times it understeers madly till the front catches and then the rear comes around. It's quite fun! Mom and Dad's Legacy Outback is rock solid on any roads. Although, on dirt, the tires have this strange attraction to sharp rocks that put holes in them. An interesting note is when a tire goes on that car, the reaction is much much much milder than on my 86. Personally, I would check all the bushings, top hats, struts first and make sure all is ok. Afterwords, might want to look into a swaybar kit and see if that helps with the understeering. You can only do so much with the suspension. The other thing you must remember is it's a FWD with a very torquey motor - doesn't take much throttle to get the front tires to spin on slippery surfaces. Ever tried driving a FWD EJ22 powered EA82 wagon on wet roads? Tire spin city in 1st, 2nd and part of 3rd! At only 1/3 throttle. Pop it in 4wd and away we go! I think going to RWD will make it too tail happy. For the same reason it's so "skiddery" as you put it. Too much torque for only 2WD. Also, with it being a sedan, the wheelbase is much shorter so the reaction time of when the tail brakes loose and when you compensate is also much much shorter. I started on a FWD with heavy understeer (86 4wd wagon) - I tried converting to RWD, it was fun, but still understeered badly till the rear broke loose - crazing thing is that was with a EJ22 in it. I then switched to a low powered RWD (Kia sportage) STILL understeered (but awesome off road) till the rear finally broke loose, then oversteer with no power to back it up {ever watched Initial D when Tak raced that white FC? He almost put the 86 in a guardrail because he didn't have enough power to point the car in the right direction.} scary, it is. I then went to a AWD XT6 - most well balenced car I've ever drove! I now have my Ford truck which is VERY tail happy in rain, snow, mud, and gravel, but again, I got 400 ft/lbs from 1800 to 3000 rpm at the rear. Laws of physics say the tail's gonna spin. AWD - False sense of stability? No, I wouldn't say that. It's more of you need to be more in tune with the car and know the subtle feedback that the car is telling you to know when traction is low. Having driven all three drivetrain types, I still prefer AWD out of all of them for the street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 Im not really a fan of awd.Yea it has alot of traction but that traction yields over confidence.So then you go into a corner and the tires break loose in a big way.Then your screwed.. Not if you lay on the gas and turn into it. No but really, I've done a fair amount of "playing around" with mine on gravel, and did some fun driving in the snow a few weeks back. AWD will start to push going into a turn IF you take your foot of the gas. Keep on the throttle, and it pulls the front end into the turn, swings the back end out a bit, but it follows right through. And when you get it really sideways its close to driving Rwd... just faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subynut Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 Besides, isn't that part of what makes a Subaru a Subaru? Unless your looking to loose traction/handling for mileage, then FWD is better, but for everything else, AWD FTW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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