OEM gaskets vs felpro, and others, and who makes what

[MilesFox]

There is always the argument about using Subaru OEM vs other makes for gaskets.

 

I Have a felpro set for 2.5 dohc, head gaskets and all related. I know that NOK is the oem supplier for cam seals and the like.

 

i have ordered sets or random brands, some have NOK, some have"made in mexico"

 

Everyone is giving me hell for using the felpro gasket set.

 

One thing i have noticed is there is the fuji logo stamped on the head gaskets in the felpro set. (2.5 dohc, 1997 outback wagon, 4eat)

 

I have seen the same for ea82 gaskets in the victor reinz sets.

 

I get the impression that although felpro stamps their own gaskets, they will source other makes to make a complete set for specific applications

 

so what gives? is the argument superficial, or is the felpro fuji stamped head gasket originally made by subaru and packaged as a felpro set?

 

seems to be more speculation than anything.

 

the advice i have is to stop assembling my engine and go to the subaru dealer. I already have the parts. they have fuji stampings on them.

 

My own judgement tells me to use what i have.

 

as far as speculation is concerned, there are those who cant predict their under 50,000 mile cars, and there are those who routinely keep 200,000 mi cars going all day long.

 

Speculate what to fear of the unknown, or go by what is proven over and over. If a new subaru is built as good or better than an old subaru, then why does it seem like the newer the car is, the more likely it will break?

 

old school vs new school, etc.......

[idosubaru]

The EJ25 has head gasket issues. Mileage and maintenance does not matter, they have a known issue (search subaru headgasket on google or here to see the results). With that in mind it is generally, and it includes some assumptions, considered a good idea to go with Subaru on this who has had a few years of headaches and redesign from the whole situation.

 

In the same way that Subaru does not make tires or cast metal for parts - Subaru does not make head gaskets. They would be outsourced to a company that makes gaskets. Maybe it's fel pro and maybe that's why you're seeing the stamp. Or maybe there's another reason.

 

But even then, that doesn't always mean the aftermarket supplied parts are the same as the OEM supplied parts. There's nothing forcing a company to supply the same part if they can't cut costs or quality control in some way. So they might spec out something to OEM...but when making their own for the aftermarket they don't have to meet any specifications, could label some cost-inneffective and supply a slightly different part to the after market.

 

Or even if they are the same, they can essentially filter through QC testing the higher rated runs to the OEM and steer the rest to aftermarket. Just and example, there's all sorts of ways or scenarios possible to make sure the OEM is getting the higher quality runs. Might mean a difference, might not.

 

In the older engines the FelPro are actually better because they don't require a retorque and experience has proven they hold very well.

 

I, and others, have had Fel Pro (and other aftermarkets) seals leak. I've never had a gasket leak, but seals that leak and not only that - actually don't fit well has been experienced by a number of folks. Not really the end of the world, but good to know.

 

Confusing huh? Post a pic of that fuji log! I'm typically Subaru only on the EJ head gaskets due to the extent of the issue, but if you got a good hunch it's the same, roll with it. I probably would, but I just have no need to buy aftermarket parts the Subaru ones are fine with me price wise.

[MilesFox]

ok. I guess felpro is a big enough company they have many outsources, including oem manufacturers to be sold under felpro kits.

 

I would like to see some more input on this. I want this thread to avoid"this brand is bad, use oem only" and focus on the actual source of parts suppliers, and their relationships.

 

For example, for something like a car battery, there are 3 manufacturers. for oil, there are a handful of manufacturers. And if you select different brands, you get a part, although maybe of a different grade of quality, from the same manufacturer.

 

Every time i go to NAPA looking fo soob parts, they cross reference with other makes, especially true with a lot of jhapanese manufacturers. For example, i used a 86 izuzu impuls cap and rotor on my 86 3door, after cross referencing because the specific one was not in stock.

 

I have seen the same NOK cam seals come from different brands of packaging. I have seen NOK or "made in mexico' for the same part in the same kit with the same part number at different times of purchases

 

And OEM subaru oor nothing argument sounds more like brand recognition. If you get a subaru kit you wont have a 'made in mexico' seal, but that does not mean you will not have a subaru oem supplied part with another brand. you could use a turbo temp sensor from a nissan, would be the same part from manufacture, but would be 'genuine' to who ever you got the same part from

 

I would have to show this thread to my NAPA guy, he could probably rattle a few examples off the top of his head

 

I'll try to come up with a list of all the major manufacturers, and compare who gets what from who

Edited January 26, 2010 by MilesFox

[Quidam]

" and focus on the actual source of parts suppliers, and their relationships."

 

Hey Miles,

 

I have a Beck/Arnley head gasket here with the Subaru Logo. I have Honda for a distributor rotor in the Subaru made by Hitachi. I have new ITM badged engine valves with a sticker covering up the FUJI logo.

 

I bought nine of those valves, and one of them has a Subaru logo still on it. Someone ground the logo off on the others.

 

The NOK if I remember right is associated with NGK.

 

For crossing parts over without a parts book, I just have used ebay. Looking at the listings will often show a page of crossovers.

 

Well, just some thoughts.

 

Doug

[MilesFox]

I'll take pics of my sealsets. i am curious to go buy a subaru oem set and compare to the felpro sets i have around.

 

so far for comparison, i can take pics of the other 2.5 head gasket before i install it.

 

I also have an unopened ea82 head set(felpro) and will have an er27 set soon to post up for comparison

 

if anyone out there has a SUBARU oem seal, please describe the markings on the individual parts

[MilesFox]

(fox's NAPA friend on his screen name)

 

After hearing about this thread from Fox I feel compelled to put in my two cents worth. I've known Fox for a bit now, and have helped him track down multiple oddball items for EA-series Subaru vehicles through my work. I'm a car enthusiast at heart, and I have been doing parts for fast approaching 6 years now.

 

The "OEM or Bust" mentality is pointless, in my opinion. Here is the reasoning:

 

OEM manufacturers use (and often switch) suppliers mid-run at their leisure, strictly to fill orders, and to make the accountants happy. What was made by Febi/Bilstein for my Audi in 1990, could be made by Meyle now, yet still sold under the SAME EXACT part number. The manufacturer does what it takes to fill their shelves up to what they need, regardless of where it comes from. Aftermarket works the same way. I can't even begin to comprehend how many times I have opened an Echlin box at my work and found Ford, Denso, Delphi, Fuji, etc. tags on them. Now mind you that this is supposedly an AFTERMARKET replacement unit, but it has an OEM part in the box. The head gasket set for an EJ25 DOHC motor that Fox purchased had National seals for the cams, and a Fuji tag on the actual head gaskets. Classic example of going elsewhere to fill the box.

 

OEM isn't always OEM, and Aftermarket isn't always aftermarket. You are dealing with a limited number of makers for pretty much every part out there. (Autolite makes Motorcraft plugs, and VW now uses NGK as OEM...)

 

If you say OEM or bust, you are wasting your time. It is what is INSIDE the box that counts.

[nipper]

Headgaskets should be OE, everything else should be a name brand.

 

Felpro has lets say 20 engineers to cover every gasket they make for every car ( I worked for a major auto parts mfg and we only had 5 for our entire product line). Subaru being OE will either asign an engineer or a group of engineers to evaluate a high cost part to see why it is failing. Aftermarket will not, since they usually see engines at the end of thier lives. OE will constantly evaluate untill they solve the problem. Aftermarket will sit on the stock.

 

Once a problem is solved, OE will put out a notice that all A Hg's are now superceeded by Revision H HG. They will tell all dealers to remove the old design and return them or destroy them. An aftermarket supplier will rarely if ever do that, and whoever has them on thier shelves will run down the inventory untill they have to order H. that may mean going through A B C D etc.

 

Thats why you buy OE. Also the deeper in the engine and the nore critical the part, thje more risky and foolish it is to rely on a cheap part.

 

nipper

[MilesFox]

I can see the argument in relation to a rod or a crank bearing, but a cork oil pan gasket is a moot point

[nipper]

I can see the argument in relation to a rod or a crank bearing, but a cork oil pan gasket is a moot point

 

 

From expierience these are best OE

 

Head gaskets (2.2 and 2.5)

T-stat

Ignition cables

Spark Plug bucket Gromits

Front O2 Sensor

 

 

nipper

Edited January 26, 2010 by nipper

[keppelk]

My 2c: EA82 head gaskets I've seen Subaru OEM and Fel-Pro permatorques. Both seem to hold as well as each other and appear to be similar quality, but since the Fel-Pro is cheaper and doesn't require retorquing I'll use Fel-Pro.

 

Only gaskets I swear Subaru OEM on are intake manifold gaskets (Fel-pro are just cutout gasket material, where Subaru is a multiple layer metalic gasket), exhaust gaskets (for the same reason), and thermostat gasket (OEM is multi-layer and very different material to the cork or paper aftermarket options).

 

Having said all of this, if a gasket is installed correctly onto a well prepared surface at the correct torques etc, most should seal adequately. No seals last forever without replacement anyway.

[Quidam]

Just recieved some closeout Beck/Arnley engine valves to round out a set.

 

Genuine Subaru.

[JacksonRally]

This thread has my attention as I will soon be doing HG's on my ea82 when I get it down here. I have a Subaru tech at my shop for side jobs that handles all of my motor work on my WRX and our rally car, but I will be diving into the ea82 on my own.

[T'subaru]

Interesting thread. I have my oem preferences on some items. Usually if you stay with a good aftermarket supplier like napa you typically get quality parts and knowledgable people. Knowledge on your part is critical. I tried to pick up subi t-stat gaskets from a large auto parts chain store and was handed a stamped gasket with a peal and stick on one side. I thought "what f######

idiot came up with this?

[Quidam]

EA-82

 

Beck/Arnley. Mfg. Subaru-Fuji Heavy industries Ltd. front and rear crank seals. NOK

 

Beck/Arnley. Cam seal kit. Mfg. KOK. No country of origin anywhere.

 

Beck/Arnley. Cam seal kit. Mfg. Nothing but numbers. No mfg anywhere. Maid In Taiwan. Looks exactly like the set above. Purple/Blue O-rings.

 

Edit:Beck/Arnley water pump and thermostat gasket. Subaru, FHI LTD. Japan

 

Federal Mogul. National Redi-Sleeves, 1.490-1.496 Shaft. Made In USA (for camshaft)

 

TIMKEN. Shaft Repair Sleeve."Made In United States" (for crankshaft rear main)

 

 

EF-12e

 

Front and rear crank seals. Beck/Arnley, Japan. Mfg. THO

 

Water pump mechanical seal. Beck/Arnley, Japan. Mfg. NPW (Nissan Pump Mfg. Co, LTD.)

Edited January 30, 2010 by Quidam

[GeneralDisorder]

If you say OEM or bust, you are wasting your time. It is what is INSIDE the box that counts.

 

That's not entirely the case. Let me explain.

 

First - you are 100% correct that often aftermarket parts are just repackaged OEM. I've opened Beck-Arnley parts to find the part stuffed in the box still has the Subaru OEM plastic wrap and label around it. Actually I bought two EA engine mounts from Rockauto and both came in the same box - one was not wrapped and the other was inside the Subaru plastic. Both were identical parts and both were obviously OEM.

 

Now - the grey area comes in when you start talking about component quality. If it's a rubber engine mount then obviously there isn't many ways in which the manufacturer can cost-cut, but on more complex items - say a water pump for instance - there are a range of component's that could be used in it's construction. The same assembly plant could use top shelf bearings and seals in the production run that goes to the Subaru factory parts warehouse - then they could switch to a lower tier bearing/seal combination for a VISUALLY IDENTICAL PART to be boxed up for an aftermarket supplier. The buyer of the parts always dictates what quality parts they want used, how many they wish to buy, etc. All of that plays big into profit margins and retail price points - that is the world of business and the "customer is always right" - customer in this case refering to the buyer of the parts - Subaru, AC/Delco, etc, etc. If you think they only supply a single tier of component quality you are sadly mistaken. Where there's a market for it, there will be a supplier and if you are already tooled up to make a part it's a simple matter to scale the product quality and offer a range - if they didn't someone else would.

 

My point is simply that just because the part *looks* the same AND came from the same supplier, doesn't mean it is. Also if you buy from the dealer you are gauranteed to get OEM - if you buy aftermarket you may or may not get an OEM part and having to open each box, look at each part, reject it or ask for another brand, go to another store, wait for them to special order, etc is time consuming and troublesome. For those who have more time than money that's fine - but a lot of us just want the RIGHT part, the FIRST time and don't want any hassles with quality, etc. That often means going straight to THE experts - which is the dealer.

 

As for EA engines - thermostat gaskets, manifold gaskets (intake/exhaust), cam tower o-rings on the EA82's, oil pump seals, and cam seals I get at the dealer - the extra cost for these small parts far outweighs the frustration of the Fel-Pro and other aftermarket seals. I have NEVER seen an aftermarket intake manifold gasket like the one from the dealer - they are like a head gasket - graphite impregnated metal. Aftermarket are all cardboard and they are all crap. They can't handle the coolant cross-over passage.

 

GD

[Quidam]

"Aftermarket are all cardboard and they are all crap. They can't handle the coolant cross-over passage."

 

Like the Weber "adaptor" gaskets. Like the Weber adaptor, aftermarket crap. (You'd need to run a modified "aftermarket" manifold to see the full benifit from it, btw. IMO.

 

Doug

[GeneralDisorder]

The weber adaptor isn't the greatest design, but the Weber is more often installed on these little engines for simplicity and reliability - to replace an ageing and complex Hitachi that is both worn out, misunderstood, and not very sporty with it's vacuum secondary.

 

If you were looking for extra performance then the adator would fail to get a passing grade for sure. But just having a working, new carb is enough for most of the people using them. It's not that big of a deal to make a custom two-peice adaptor or TIG weld an SPFI manifold into submission for mounting a Weber if performance was the real objective.

 

I do usually make my own gasket for them and sometimes I use anaerobic flange sealant instead of a gasket. Seems to work well for me - did an EA82 two-peice adaptor with it about 6 months ago. Working great.

 

GD

Edited January 30, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Quidam]

Oh, and btw: You've stated your qualifications here before so now is as good a time as any for me to state mine.

 

1504 hour, 2 year program Auto Mechanics. Year one I scored the highest in my class on a state acheivement test.

 

2nd year, I scored the second highest.

 

That was the factor in a new car dealership recruiting me.

 

That got me "stripes for skills" when I enlisted in the US Army as a 63 B wheeled vehicle mechanic. E-4 within the first year.

 

Doug

[MilesFox]

I just opened the FEL-PRO ea82 head gasket set. it had mostly Fel-Pro gaskets, permatorques for the heads, and regular stamped gaskets for everything else.

 

for the cam seals(x2) one of them was NOK made in japan, and the other was National seal made in USA(or mexico)

 

the EJ set in my earlier comments had the fuji head gaskets. Felpro sometimes is a mixed bag.

 

for felpro, the intake and exhaust gaskets could be better. I wish NAPA hadn't dropped Victor Reinz sets since those were always the graphite/metal gaskets for the intake and exhaust.

 

and to make point, for the sake of the topic of the thread, if you order from subaru you get subaru oem parts. If you know how to shop the aftermarket, you get Subaru oem parts for cheaper. Enough parts are subaru specific that you will get oem no matter what(valve cover gaskets and grommets) An oil pan or water pump gasket doesnt really matter either way

[Quidam]

http://www.northernautoparts.com/ECatalog.cfm?RequestType=GetCategories&VehicleId=1268614&EngineName=1.8L H4 GAS FI VIN 4

 

The Beck/Arnley stuff is drying up, the old stock anyway. I bought two sets of their piston rings and they are up-scale...I don't know who makes them. USA

 

The oil scraper is a Napier ring, costs more to produce, less friction. They're better than OEM. They fit better.

 

I had read about Melling making the balance shaft chain for the EF-12. I ended up at Northern Auto Parts. They sell them, like $16.00, they sell a guide too that you can't find just anywhere. They have a balance shaft sprocket, not usual. It's ITM...only ITM I've bought is FUJI.

 

What I found too were those Victor gaskets:) For the EF-12, and I just looked, for the EA-82. They have the Victor exhaust manifold kits.

 

My choices now have evolved, dealer, Rock Producs, Fel-Pro, ITM, Victor, Cloyes, Melling...and of course, the ebay stuff.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Quidam

[Twitch de la Brat]

I've got 2 bits to add, exhaust manifold gaskets.

 

The ones made by Felpro are pretty cheaply made cardboard gaskets.

They have only a Felpro stamp on them.

The OEM's I've seen look like they have a more dense cardboard and more metal

coverage on the edges.

 

Twitch

[GeneralDisorder]

Oh, and btw: You've stated your qualifications here before so now is as good a time as any for me to state mine.

 

1504 hour, 2 year program Auto Mechanics. Year one I scored the highest in my class on a state acheivement test.

 

2nd year, I scored the second highest.

 

That was the factor in a new car dealership recruiting me.

 

That got me "stripes for skills" when I enlisted in the US Army as a 63 B wheeled vehicle mechanic. E-4 within the first year.

 

Doug

 

I'm not really sure what any of that has to do with gasket's....... but ok. I've never said anything for or against your qualifications. You seem to know your stuff as well as any 63B I've met (52D myself). I did my share of "wheeled vehicle's" in the service - did more of them than I would have liked in fact. Probably one of the reasons I left after my 8 year obligation.

 

I had the highest test scores they had ever seen at AIT (and ever will see - since I scored 100% on every test). Army exams are pathetic IMO - open book is no challenge at all if you can actually read (surprisingly challenging for a lot of the folks that enlist though ).

 

GD

Edited January 31, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Quidam]

Hey GD,

 

Stripes for skills, I didn't even go through AIT. Basic training to permanant duty assignment.

 

Doug

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah I don't think they do that anymore - rather, I got college credit for basic and AIT.

 

If they did have a program like that it wouldn't have fit my skill set back then as there is no MOS in the Army for software engineering.

 

GD

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

Product

Core

Unit Price

Qty

Item Total

 

For your 1994 Subaru Justy 1.2L MFI SOHC 3cyl

 

Felpro/Conversion Gasket Set

Part Number: CS9528

Availability: Ships within 3-5 business days.

 

N/A

$38.99

 

1

$38.99

 

 

 

Timken/Camshaft Seal

Part Number: 223018

Availability: Ships within 2 business days.

 

N/A

$6.99

 

1

$6.99

 

 

 

SUBTOTAL:

$45.98

SHIPPING:

$5.70

TAXES:

$3.48

TOTAL:

$55.16

 

 

These will be charged when shipped, for an EF-12. Btw, I have OEM crank seals too. IME, there can be like 3/16" differences on where the sealing lips of the seal rest on the crank for instance. So it may seal like new, just depends. Other option is redi-sleeve, the Subaru doesn't have to leak oil.

 

I have a National cam seal kit for the EA-82, USA. Same deal with the lips, as I have two brands of seals. The Timken Redi-Sleeve is about $20.00 compared to the Federal Mogul. National is the MFG, looks like FM is the middle man here. Costs more.

 

AutoZone saved me money on the conversion gasket set and I still prefer that parts be delivered.

 

 

 

Doug