Crank pulley nightmare

[toni1595]

Hi all. Its a 2.2 95' Legacy. My daughter runs it. Well she called me last Thursday and said that the car just quit running and that a pulley came off. I went and checked it out and the crank pulley fell off (it was toast). I had it towed to a warm garage and proceeded to try a repair.

 

I'd done a few 1.8 but never a 2.2 Liter. When I got down to the taking the timing gear off the crankshaft, I had a heck of a time because the key was rolled over. I made up a puller and I did get it off, but it almost didn't come. Needless to say, the keyway in the shaft as well as the timing gear aren't the best. I did manage to get a used pulley (harmonic balancer) at a local junkyard and I had her pick up a new woodruff key just in case.

 

I finally got the car back together today and it runs quite rough. I'm pretty sure I have the timing off. It starts OK, but when you try to accelerate, it acts like it starving for fuel or something. I'll have to pull it back apart and recheck my work.

 

One thing that I didn't do that I used to on the older Subs was to rotate the engine 2 turns and recheck the timing marks. Is that recommended on these 2.2's? I don't know why I didn't do it anyways, in a hurry I guess.

 

There is one thing that really worries me, the play on the timing gear on the crankshaft is about 1/8" back and forth. Will this be a problem? The only repair for that,as far as I can see,is a crankshaft replacement. Not really an option on a car with 182K on the clock.

 

I did torque the crank bolt to 125 ft./lbs because whomever did the last repair, evidently never got it tight enough. Unless the crankshaft/pulley had issues back then as well. I also put some removeable Loctite on the bolt threads also, maybe it will help it stay on. Of course, now I need to remove it again.

 

So what do you gurus think? Is this thing salvageable??

 

All the best, Toni.

[lostinthe202]

Any play in the crank gear is no good. There have been repairs to the keyway when this kind of thing happens but I'm not sure what they are exactly. Try searching here on the forum using the "advanced search" function as this has been covered many times before.

 

The 2.2 doesn't need the revolution of the system like the two belt, EA82 engine (the 1.8 your used to) does.

 

It is possible to get the belt off a tooth or so. Again do a search on 2.2 timing belt changes and you should come up with pages and pages and pages of info.

 

Good Luck!

 

Will-

[hankosolder2]

I think that 1/8" play on the crankshaft sprocket is the cause of your poor running, though of course if your timing belt is off a tooth it will run even worse. The ignition is fired by the crank and cam position sensors, so even slight misalignment will not only mess with the valve timing but the ignition timing as well. There has been some discussion on here about the various means of repairing this issue- you could do a search and see what comes up.

 

 

Nathan

[Olnick]

Definitely got to get rid of that play. I seem to recall that some have had luck with welding up the crankshaft snout then grinding a new key slot. Did it while still in the car I believe.

 

Also vaguely recall a bolt-on piece to position and hold the pulley. It was a rather elegant solution. Seem to remember some mention of a shop in Denver (was it S-Wings?) that had the part. Might want to contact them.

 

Good luck.

[Gloyale]

Definitely got to get rid of that play. I seem to recall that some have had luck with welding up the crankshaft snout then grinding a new key slot. Did it while still in the car I believe.

 

I've *fixed* one with JB weld. Filled the hole and set the woodruff key in and allowed to set overnight before installing and tightening the crank pulley.

 

or you could weld in the woodruf key and then grind it down till the pulley slides on.

[WoodsWagon]

Enough metal shavings can be generated by the wobbling pully that it shorts out the magnetic field on the crank and cam sensors. I had one where the pully hadn't come off, but the check engine light was on because the sensor had so much metal debris stuck to it.

 

Do the JB weld positioning of the key in the crank, it doesn't carry any load once the bolt is tight.

 

I'd replace the crank sproket, the face of it where the pully buts up against it is usually trashed, and a new (used) pully won't seat against it properly so the bolt comes loose again.

[davebugs]

We fixed one of these last year. Started a thread and has a few pics.

 

Even screwed up the oil pump.

 

Welded the crank, dremel to clean up the keyway. Had a long time Subaru tech help - and I'm not used to having help. Forgot to take pics of evactly what you need to see. Things move more quiclykly than I'm used to when two folks are working on the car.

 

I pulled the engine to make it easier to work on. I did the usual stuff while it was out - the major maintenance stuff.

 

Make sure you get the new crank bolt TIGHT when it's re-assembled.

[CNY_Dave]

I've *fixed* one with JB weld. Filled the hole and set the woodruff key in and allowed to set overnight before installing and tightening the crank pulley.

 

or you could weld in the woodruf key and then grind it down till the pulley slides on.

 

 

JB Weld is good, loctite sleeve retainer is a good choice also. With that it's questionable the key would see any stress at all.

 

Getting it off for the next repair is the exciting part.

 

 

Dave

[Gloyale]

JB Weld is good, loctite sleeve retainer is a good choice also. With that it's questionable the key would see any stress at all.

 

Getting it off for the next repair is the exciting part.

 

 

Dave

 

I filled the keyway with JB......Slid the belt sprocket on.......then SLOWLY and CAREFULLY pulled it back off and waited for the JB to set. Then I put the sprocket back on later and reassembled. My hope is that the sprocket is not cemented to the JB weld.

[aa8jzdial]

This is the third time I've entered a reply. And the last. Others got lost in the bit bucket.

#@!$ computer

Olnick I think is refering to some messages floating around a few years ago.

I had the same problem with about 15 degrees of slop on my crank gear.

A machinist fellow solved his problem (and mine via usmb) by drilling matching holes through both crank pulley and crank gear. Paralell with the crank axis. Dowel pins were pressed with a tight fit bonding the pulley and gear together. Some precison machining required here. This was then tightened with the crank bolt to 100+ ft/lbs.

This tremendous force applied to the pulley/crank end interface held things perfectly for the past 40k miles. I suppose an extremely damaged keyway will take the crank beyond repair but this sure saved me major headaches. If I recall some touch up was required on the damaged crankshaft but done with just a file and some paper. New key too.

This same fellow offered up the machining done on used parts he acquired for less then $100. Now that was 3-5 years ago so things change.

Do a search here and post if you have no luck.

I will dig into my hard drive when i get home and try and locate details.

This technique should have been applied by Subaru to new motors.

Rick

w mi

[aa8jzdial]

I may have found something.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=54697&highlight=aa8jzdial

 

Try this link. The guy is/was wawalker.

I don't think his jpgs come through but the text seems to be there.

Good luck.

pm me and I will try and find the photos.

[Olnick]

I may have found something.

 

 

Me too! That's funny, Rick--curiosity got me so I went back and looked it up too.

 

Hope you can find the pix, it was a beautiful piece of work as I recall.

[toni1595]

Hey, thanks for all of the replies guys. That's quite interesting about the doweling of the crank gear to the pulley. Sounds like that might just work. My regular job entails doing some machinist work. I'm pretty sure I could pull this off. By the way what did he use for the dowels? I would think a couple of split roll pins would work.

 

I have also considered the Loctite route. No doubt it would hold it on there. But you'd probably have to have some heat to remove it. I know the stuff we use takes about 300 degrees to get it loosened up.

 

The JB Weld might work, although I do have some reservations about that. Mainly where it is merely stuck there like an adhesive. I wouldn't expect it would have the shear strength of something that's actually welded to the shaft.

 

I have located a new crank gear at the local Sub dealer, around $50, not as bad as I thought it might be.

 

Now I just need to make sure I get the timing correct. I think on my next go round, I'm going to try starting it up before I finish the job. I should know right off if it's correct, then I can put the drive belts and end covers back on.

 

I'll keep you posted as things progress.

 

Toni.

[aa8jzdial]

Toni

for 50 bucks I would look around.

Anyone with a wrenched engine will sell one cheap I bet.

Let me know and I will look into one from a good friend up north.

 

I will try and find the pix tmrw. No guarantee as I am terribly disorganized

and have been for 57 years.

r

[WoodsWagon]

The JB Weld might work, although I do have some reservations about that. Mainly where it is merely stuck there like an adhesive. I wouldn't expect it would have the shear strength of something that's actually welded to the shaft.

 

Toni.

 

The key and keyway don't need shear strength. The crank snout has a shoulder that the t-belt sprocket goes up against, the pully stacks against the end of the sprocket and the bolt presses them all together. So, the key and keyway have no load on them once the bolt is tightened. It's the static friction of the surfaces of the crank shoulder, sprocket faces, and pully face that transfer the power. That's the reason that the keyway self destructs as soon as the bolt loosens at all. It's not designed to transfer power, it's only an allignment device so that the sprocket is installed in the right position relative to cylinder top dead center. That's also why the condition of the faces of the crank sprocket and pully are more important than the condition of the crank and keyway.

 

All the JB weld is doing is holding the key where it used to be in the keyway. That lets you accurately line up the sprocket on the crank. As soon as the bolt is tight, the key and the JB weld will never see a load again untill you loosen the bolt. As long as you lined up the sproket on the crank in the right spot, you could theoretically run it without a key. This isn't practical because the sprocket has a tendancy to rotate on the crank as you tighten the bolt. Hence the key to keep it lined up untill the bolt is tight.

[aa8jzdial]

91loyale may have pegged it.

In retrospect the pinning may have not been necessary.

Indeed the crank gear is "pinched" between the crank snout and the crank pulley. The Subaru design probably only fails when less then rated torque is

applied to the crank bolt. Having said that though it sure gave me peace of mind when I installed the modified gear/pulley. Seemed to reduce the slop to an insignificant amount. With a worn key way how can we know the crank gear is exactly spot on. And just how significant is it?

The car of mine is long since gone so I guess this question is just for reference.

Enough on this thread??

rick

[toni1595]

In reading some of OB99W's information, I just had an OH SH** revelation. One of the articles mentions about the tabs on the back of the timing gear and how there is a pickup unit that reads them........well in trying to pry off the stuck timing gear, I broke one of those tabs clean off. Damn,I hate to admit that, but I have a feeling that's what it is. Should have known those tabs weren't there for added air movement or something like that.

 

Anyways that being said, the new timing gear should have these tabs on it and that should clear this up.

 

While I'm back in there, I think I'll have my daughter pick up a new crank seal and maybe 2 new camshaft seals as well. I know this is leaking oil, but I'm not sure where. Are there any other seals that I should do while I'm in that area?

 

Meanwhile, I'm going to hang my hat on the wall of shame, for not knowing better.

 

Toni.

[johnceggleston]

The key and keyway don't need shear strength. The crank snout has a shoulder that the t-belt sprocket goes up against, the pully stacks against the end of the sprocket and the bolt presses them all together. So, the key and keyway have no load on them once the bolt is tightened. It's the static friction of the surfaces of the crank shoulder, sprocket faces, and pully face that transfer the power. That's the reason that the keyway self destructs as soon as the bolt loosens at all. It's not designed to transfer power, it's only an allignment device so that the sprocket is installed in the right position relative to cylinder top dead center. That's also why the condition of the faces of the crank sprocket and pully are more important than the condition of the crank and keyway.

 

All the JB weld is doing is holding the key where it used to be in the keyway. That lets you accurately line up the sprocket on the crank. As soon as the bolt is tight, the key and the JB weld will never see a load again untill you loosen the bolt. As long as you lined up the sproket on the crank in the right spot, you could theoretically run it without a key. This isn't practical because the sprocket has a tendancy to rotate on the crank as you tighten the bolt. Hence the key to keep it lined up untill the bolt is tight.

 

also, the rotation of the crank trys to loosen the bolt and when loose, it boogers the keyway in/on one direction. when you tighten the bolt it tends to move spin the sprocket in the other direction, the direction that is not wallowed?

 

so is it possible that the key way will still correctly locate the sprocket when tightening since the damage is in the other direction???

 

and when tighten to the correct torque will stay put??

[WoodsWagon]

also, the rotation of the crank trys to loosen the bolt and when loose, it boogers the keyway in/on one direction. when you tighten the bolt it tends to move spin the sprocket in the other direction, the direction that is not wallowed?

 

so is it possible that the key way will still correctly locate the sprocket when tightening since the damage is in the other direction???

 

and when tighten to the correct torque will stay put??

Yes,

 

Yes,

and Yes. However, the key should be stabilized in the location where it origionaly was, which is why a bit of JB weld to hold it there doesn't hurt. Once it's set up it's plenty to keep the key indexed.

 

Toni995

When you replace the front main seal, remove the oil pump from the front of the block, tighten the phillips screws that hold the pump backing plate on, and reseal where it attaches to the block with Fugibond or a similar RTV. Putting a mild locktite, I forget which color it is, there's red an blue and another permenant locktite, on the phillips screws will prevent them from backing out again.

[Gloyale]

In reading some of OB99W's information, I just had an OH SH** revelation. One of the articles mentions about the tabs on the back of the timing gear and how there is a pickup unit that reads them........well in trying to pry off the stuck timing gear I broke one of those tabs clean off. Damn,I hate to admit that, but I have a feeling that's what it is. Should have known those tabs weren't there for added air movement or something like that.

 

 

 

 

Never pry.

 

if it won't come of by hand, then you need to tap the 2 holes that are at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock relative to the keyway(M8x***) insert bolts in the holes, and use a steering wheel type or other suitable puller to get it off.

 

Prying almost never works, and ussually bends or breaks the sprocket.

 

Saying this for anyone else reading......I'll assume you've learned the hard way:rolleyes:

[toni1595]

Hi all, just a note to let you guys know that I did get this straightened out. I did end up using the JB Weld around the new key as well as the new timing gear. There was no play at all with this setup. The biggest problem was getting the timing belt back on, the right side cam sprocket kept popping off its cam.

 

I had to make a tool to hold the cam sprockets in order to get them off to be able to change the oil seals. The strap wrench that I tried, just wouldn't hold them. I simply used the opposite end of the harmonic balancer tool that I had previously made and welded a holder onto that. So now I have a multi-use tool. Pretty handy I think. Has about a 2' handle and its no problem keeping things still. I can post a photo of it if anyone is interested.

 

I did find that whomever did the last cam seal job, evidently used silicone on the seals and probably never replaced them as they were quite hardened.

 

The oil pump kit or crank seal kit that I picked up from NAPA had a gasket, but I didn't use it, I just used the RTV as suggested here. The screws in the back were all tight, so I left them be.

 

One thing that I did do that I am a little apprehensive about was reusing the timing belt, I know that's a no-no here, but it only had about 20K miles on it and it looked real good to me. With the $$$'s being tight and this not being an interference engine, I figured I'd let it go.

 

Thanks to all for your suggestions and help. I'm certain this won't be the last ordeal I'll run into in Subaru Land.

 

All the best, Toni.