2005 Baja - broken timing belt

[Jaderider]

Would like to find out if anyone has experience with this issue. At less than 61,000 miles, the timing belt broke on my daughter's 2005 Baja turbo. I don't understand it breaking with so few miles on it. An independent mechanic who specializes in Subaru says it would be best to replace the engine at a cost of $3500-$4000 for a used engine. He hadn't even looked at it yet. I talked to the local dealership and they said a lot of times it just has bent valves, but he'll know more when he looks at it. I'm waiting on him to look at it now.

 

She bought the car used about 1.5 years ago from a Subaru dealer with about 56,000 miles on it. She drove it to San Diego, it sat for seven months while she was deployed, and she has driven it back to Idaho. When it broke, she had recently exited off the interstate. She was pulling into someone's driveway when she heard the clanging noise. My regular mechanic stopped by to check it later and start it up and he said it sounded like a timing belt issue. When he came back to load the car up to take to his shop, the car wouldn't start at all. He got it to the shop and pulled it apart--he called the Subaru specialist because he wasn't feeling comfortable with the possible damage and that's when they told him it would probably need a new engine.

 

I guess I'm trying to find out what would cause a timing belt to break so early and would this have been covered under the 60,000 mile warranty? I'm hoping I can find some fault with Subaru so I can push them to fix this on their own or to give her a deep discount on the repair. If this is a pipe dream, feel free to let me know.

 

PS--I'm not a mechanic at all, just her mom. :-)

[MilesFox]

although the BAJA is anewer design of engine, the older subarus requred timing belt service at 60,000 miles.

 

I would say that the issue with the timing belt breaking at such a low mileage is due to age alone, it is 5 years old, and plus the car had sat for 7 months before breaking.

 

Possible causes to consider:

1. age of belt, when sitting for months, conformed to a rigid shape, would be stresses where it makes the tightest bend around its pulleys.

2. The water pump may be die for replacement. If the pulley is starting to drag, if the pump is seizing, it will burn up the belt.

3. Bad, worn, aged idler pulleys. The belt rides along a series of idler pulleys and a tensioner pulley. These pulleys are like skateboard wheels, and over time can get loose or seize up, causing a drag on the belt.

 

When the car broke down, did you smell any burning rubber? this would clue a seized idler pulley.

 

If the car got hot, or if the temp gauge was rising, this would clue a water pump failure

 

I would put my bets on the car being parked for so long with the mileage it has. Honestly the belt should have held out to 80,000 miles or so

 

Your mechanic quoted you so much to replace the engine. Far easier and should cost less for labor, less the cost of a new/used engine.

 

But, a competent mechanic would install a new belt, and do a compression test to determine if a valve is bent. If the compression is good, then all you need is the new belts, idler pulleys, and its a good idea to do the water pump. Good opportunity to have the head gaskets re-torqued since the DOHC 2.5 engine is prone to head gasket failure right about 150,000 miles.

 

If the valves are indeed bent(after doing a compression test with new belt) the head would come off, and the valves can be replaced for the same effort of having the heads rebuilt. This operation will require new head gaskets, and a replacement gasket has been revised with another layer(multi layer steel) as a workaround to the prepature head gasket failures from the factory.

 

If you have all that work done, your motor will be rock solid til 300,000 miles, considering you have the timing belt serviced once again at 150,000

 

BTW i am doing a head gasket job including timing belt set and water pump for someone who was quoted 2600 bucks to do the same work, i am doing it for a 3rd of the cost, and parts cost me less then 400, including the head gaskets, engine seals, timing belt and pulleys, i already have a water pump anyway. I am just a subaur enthusiast in my garage.

 

you should expect to pay 1500 to 2000 bucks to a competent mechanic. try to find someone with no more than 60 per hour labor rate.

 

good luck, i hope this helps you

[Jaderider]

This is a huge help--thanks so much. At least I will understand the dealer's service shop when they start throwing terms and "what needs to be done" at me. I might be a slightly clueless woman, but I try to educate myself before stepping into a mostly man's world. :-) I completely trust my regular mechanic, but dealerships are another story.

 

This is a great site. I've been reading other posts and threads--you have a good support system here. Thanks!

[bheinen74]

The "used engine" they talk of replacing yours with, you know that is essentially the engine they pulled out of another that had the Tbelt break right.

 

That used engine is what yours will be to the next customer. yours can most likely be saved, and used in your BAJA

[Gloyale]

Get someone to hang a belt on it and take a compresion test.

 

These later 2.5s are more forgiveing than the early DOHC ones.

 

Espescially since the car was basically parked and idling when the belt slipped for the last time. (at least not ripping down the freeway at 3500 rpms) the chances are good it can be fixed with just a new belt, tensioners, and might as well do the Waterpump too.

 

Don't get discouraged, got a feeling with it giving way at low to no speed like that you probably got lucky.

[Jaderider]

Thanks, all. Crossing my fingers about the low rpms also when it broke. I've read every timing belt post on this forum! Now just waiting for the dealership to get to looking at it. This is a small town, so my choices are limited on who can do the work. This dealership sells Audis, VW and Subarus--I may be screwed on the cost no matter what.

[idosubaru]

This is really bad luck, period. Here's what to do:

 

Get in contact with Subaru immediately. If local dealers won't help, get in touch with SOA regionally. There are plenty of reports of people getting engines repaired just out of warranty that are much older than yours, so I'd give it a whirl. Sometimes they pay half, etc. Be consistent, friendly, but firm in your beliefs this is premature and not neglect.

 

Next - Gloyale is right - there's a chance the motor is fine. Put a new belt on it and see what happens.

 

YOU DO NOT NEED AN ENGINE. Even if there is valve damage, these motors are readily repaired (it's been done lots of times). It costs around $1,200-$2,000 depending on work/parts but it's cheaper and a much better option than buying a used motor. A used motor will incorporate high costs and you'd probably want a new timing belt installed on it too - more costs.

 

The tensioner and all pulleys should be meticulously inspected or replaced - the tensioner you might be best to replace it in case it was the cause of the failure.

[MilesFox]

And in the future, after the repairs, if the car will be parked for long periods of time, its a good idea to start it and let it warm up once every week or 2, this will keep everything in good flexible working order, keeps the seals fresh, and prevents anything from dryrotting and helps keep condensation out of the engine itself.

[Jaderider]

Understand on the keeping it started. When she was in San Diego, a friend was supposed to start it once a week and this person failed at it. If she is deployed again, she'll leave it with me and I will drive it to work at least once a week. I truly appreciate the comments and suggestions.

[Jaderider]

Dealer's mechanic called--said it was the bolt on the tensioner bracket that broke. He says he's not going to know how much damage was done until they "tear into it". He's quoting $800 just to "tear into it" and that labor will be applied to the total estimate of the fix. He has no idea why that bolt broke. I asked about the car being just barely over the 60,000 mile warranty and he didn't even want to discuss that it could be a warranty repair. Just kept saying he wouldn't know anything until they look to see how much damage has been done.

[idosubaru]

I already mentioned but at most you're essentially looking at a head job with a few valves to replace - $1,200-ish dollars at a dealer. So you know the ball park.

 

It *could* just need a belt. It's too bad you took it to a dealer first...i mean that's good if they honor any warranty, but if they don't:confused: An independent mechanic is more likely to be willing to toss a belt on there and tell if the compression is good or not - would only take a few minutes. Dealer won't do that without charging exorbitant fees. It can be easily done without reassembling everything. Actually all it needs is a new tensioner bolt and belt - takes only a few minutes to get there and test it. But they probably won't do that without mad $$$.

 

As to your warranty options - I would start talking to service managers and SOA now. You have to be proactive, they're just hoping you say "okay, send me the bill".

[hankosolder2]

At this point I would bypass the dealer and start talking to the Subraru zone rep or Subaru of America directly. There's no reason for a bolt like that to fail short of a metalurgical flaw or overtorquing- both of which would be manufacturer's defects. Lobby hard for a goodwill adjustment.

[Jaderider]

Thanks, folks--I'm already looking up the regional office's number. This is a small town, so I'm hoping they want to play the goodwill game. I reread some posts about bolts breaking if they are over-torqued. Hoping this is the case.

[bulwnkl]

Hi, Jaderider. I'm sorry to hear that your daughter's Baja broke. I live in Ammon, but I have very limited experience with Wackerli. What I know about them is that they've rescheduled me 3 times on the fuel pump bracket recall for my '05 Baja, but they didn't call me; I showed up and they said, "Uh, yeah, well, we don't have the parts." I also know that they want more than list price for various common maintenance parts. They're nice, but I personally don't normally go there for parts and service because of these factors, and because I like to do the work myself.

 

I'd offer to come help you, but I'm away for work for a while. I'd do as Gary suggests and push politely but very firmly for warranty coverage. Talk to the service manager, but definitely go to SOA, too. I also would not pay the dealer $800 to 'tear into it.' They're probably going to pull the heads to inspect the valves, which isn't necessary just yet. Plus, that's not germane to whether it should be covered by warranty or not, so IMO, them wanting to tear into it before they answer you on warranty is just a way to commit you to paying. Then they have you over a barrel.

 

Isn't there an independent Subie shop in town? I can't remember the name right now. Maybe they don't have experience with the newer Subies; I just can't remember.

 

Good luck!

 

P.S. Ignore the post up a ways that says the engine will lose a head gasket by 150k miles. The turbo engines in these Bajas aren't susceptible to that failure. Also, the 'letting it sit caused the belt to break' thing is also bogus, as you now know because the dealer said a bolt broke and that's what caused the failure.

[edrach]

Subaru of America

Northwest Region

5216 NE 158th Ave.

Portland, OR 97230

503-262-1250

 

Broken bolt on the tensioner should certainly be a warranty issue even at 61,000 miles. Best of luck persuing this.

[Jaderider]

What a great group! Bulwnkl, you'll have to tell me what color your Baja is as we watch for them and have been noting who the drivers are. :-) My daughter is a bit of a Baja fanatic. Her's is a white/silver one.

 

I was going through her original purchase paperwork last night and, 'lo and behold, she has an extended service contract. Looks like a decent one too. I've heard about Wackerli and I felt like the mechanic was trying to blow me off on the phone, but it was Hall's (independent Subaru specialist) that said right off the bat it needed a new engine.

 

I know we women folk don't tend to know much about cars/trucks, but I came on this site to arm myself with knowledge in talking with the mechanic. I kept bringing up some of the points you made in your posts and he had no interest in discussing it. I used to sell trucks and ag trucks (but don't ask me about fixing engines) so I'm not a complete moron, but damn if it doesn't still bother me to be treated like "just a woman" at times. I want to thank all of you for NOT treating me that way. I have truly appreciated your help.

 

Now that I am armed with an extended warranty that covers just about everything except changing the oil, I'm feeling much better about my daughter's bank account. All she has is her GI Bill to live on, so all has worked out well.

 

As a side, I was looking at the inspection done by the Boise dealer (that she bought the Baja from) that's required for the service contract. Here's what they did:

 

-Evac/recharge A/C system

-replace dome light

-replace front brake pads/remachine rotors

-replace rear brakes and reface drums/rotors

-found oil pump leak: removed timing belt cover and belts, removed oil pump and leaking o-ring, replaced front seal, reassembled engine and tested for leaks.

 

So I'm thinking this dealership is the one who over-torqued the bolt that broke?

[idosubaru]

-found oil pump leak: removed timing belt cover and belts, removed oil pump and leaking o-ring, replaced front seal, reassembled engine and tested for leaks.

 

So I'm thinking this dealership is the one who over-torqued the bolt that broke?

 

You are exactly right. It was either over-torqued or under torqued. If it's under torqued it could work itself loose enough for the tensioner to "wobble" and eventually break the bolt via fatigue.

 

There is no way to verify that but there's a 99% chance that it was their fault.

[MilesFox]

You are exactly right. It was either over-torqued or under torqued. If it's under torqued it could work itself loose enough for the tensioner to "wobble" and eventually break the bolt via fatigue.

 

 

sounds like the problem at hand. the timing belts have been off, and perhaps this bolt was UNDERTORQUED.

 

I had this happen to one of my own cars, the idler pulley backed out enough to snap the bolt. I was able to repair it over the side of the road, but this was a non-interference 1.8 mtor with no timing belt covers, was an east fix for me.

 

supposing the valves are not bent, the repair should be no more than 2-3 hours labor and parts. parts alone for a new timing belts and tensioners are 225-300 bucks depending on the tensioner style.

 

if this is the case then you should not have to pay more than 600 bucks for repairing this problem. the bolt itself is a simple metric 10x125. if the parts are new enough, then all you really need ios the bolt itself

[nipper]

although the BAJA is anewer design of engine, the older subarus requred timing belt service at 60,000 miles.

 

 

Huh?

 

Subarus since 1996 have had 105,000 mile intervals on the timing belt. This belt should not have snapped just for the sake of snapping. Maybe a failed cam bearing.

 

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/TBeltEWWin05.pdf

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/subaru_maintenance1.html

 

I would strongly suggest not to do a thing yet. I would contact subaru and firmly complain about the failed timing belt. I am suspect on the need for an engine. You may have a bent valve or two. Talk to subaru, and more specifically the local area rep.

 

Good luck.

 

nipper

[bulwnkl]

Glad you found the service contract. That's great! I also agree with Gary re: the oil pump seal repair is fairly likely what caused, through improper bolt torque, this failure. Still, in terms of dealing with the warranty (or service contract) aspect of this, I'm not sure that's a point to be brought up right now? Personally, I'd just display the service contract (does it have Subaru's name on it, or an aftermarket company's?) and have it fixed through that. Only if there is some demand for receipts or something would I bring up that prior service. I'd hate for the warranty company to claim that the service done in Boise caused the failure but, since you didn't actually get coverage until after that service, Boise's improper work is not covered here.

 

...I know we women folk don't tend to know much about cars/trucks...

 

FWIW, I don't see things that way, and I choose to believe that most here don't, either. ALL of us want to not get hosed, and all of us need info or help in lots of circumstances so that we don't.

 

My Baja's black over dark gray/black. Have you seen the red one that works at (owns?) that nursery/landscaper on Sunnyside just west of Hitt? There's a yellow one that used to live near 1st and Northgate Mile, and Wackerli recently put a silver one in the airport! I'll probably see you guys around town.

[Jaderider]

Bulwinkl--there's a dark blue one that's at University Place very often too. I've seen a silver one running around also. Yep, in a small town we can get to know all the Bajas. lol

 

The service contract came through the Boise dealership with the sale of the car--it's a third party, but sold by the dealership.

 

Just spoke to the mechanic--he says it needs a new engine and new cylinder? He's working up a bid for the service contract people. I asked about how long on the downtime and he said it would take a week to get the parts as the engine has to come in on a truck. She's going to borrow my dad's Grand Am to get down to her reserves duty in SLC this weekend, but looks like no Baja for at least a couple of weeks.

[johnceggleston]

 

Just spoke to the mechanic--he says it needs a new engine and new cylinder?

 

since someone else is paying for the most of it, i agree with the mechanic, you need a new engine.

 

side note, i wonder if when they ran the vin# the extended warranty showed up??

[nipper]

If someone else is paying for it, make sure they are truly paying for all of it. I have seen some sleazy things with extended warrenties. Read the contract and make sure you are doing the proper steps.

 

nipper

[edrach]

If someone else is paying for it, make sure they are truly paying for all of it. I have seen some sleazy things with extended warrenties. Read the contract and make sure you are doing the proper steps.

 

nipper

Also make sure they will be using genuine Subaru parts. You have the extended contract through them so there shouldn't be any question about it. Definitely get an itemized list of parts and such. For your own satisfaction, you want to see the old parts to make sure that critical parts did not go into your "new" engine. The old manifold and electrical parts and such should remain with the car, but any internal parts should be replaced. Good luck with this and your daughter was lucky to buy the extended warranty.

[idosubaru]

I would not want a new engine unless it's verified Subaru and not used.

 

They're making out on this deal somehow because "Engine Replacement" is not necessary. Which is fine, just make sure you're not getting the short end of the stick just so they can make more money.

 

I'd rather retain my own good engine than some unknown used or rebuilt. Your engine is fine actually - it just needs a head job - something they do every single day in a dealership. They're just trying to gouge the insurance company and get something out of this deal. They're probably drooling over the fact that once they replace your engine - they get to keep your old one, heck i'd want it too!