welder?

[Uberoo]

for christmas I was supposed to get a welder.except right now due to money troubles that hasn't materialized yet.So I was thinking of lowering my standards a bit and getting something cheaper.I was considering the lincoln 180T which is pretty much a perfect welder for me, because I would mostly be working on cars and what not.What is not perfect is its price.the welder,gas,wire,etc would set me back close to $800.So I was considering a 220V unit from harbor freight.it is flux or mig,It can weld .023-.03 solid wire, and it has about the same duty cycle for about 1/2 as much.depending on specials at HF it might be even less.Its price is tempting but I don't know about its quality.Anyone ever used a HF mig welder and had good results?

 

thanks in advance.

[GeneralDisorder]

They work OK for the price. They aren't the caddilac of welders obviously but they are common enough (due to the cheap price) that there are lots of mods you can do to them to improve their features and welding characteristics - lots of good write-up's and such can be found over on weldingweb and other forums.

 

The MIG torch and cable is cheap on them but it's also cheap to replace - parts are readily availbile through HF if you just call them. Shipping is fast, etc.

 

There's a lot of plusses to them from that standpoint if you are handy with electrical and into modifying things with bigger, better fans, better diode bridges, etc.

 

I have the 110v version of the same machine - gas capable, etc. It was my first MIG welder and I did add gas and tweak it a bit. Worked OK till I wanted to weld serious structural stuff. They can't handle much over 1/8" on the 110v machines. And the 220v machines won't handle as much as the big-name 220v machines will. Typically they over rate the machines. A 220v HF machine will not do what my 220v Fabricator 180 will do.

 

If you want to step up to something decent but a little less than the Lincoln/Miller stuff take a look at the Thermal-Arc offerings. It's Tweco's welder division. My Fabricator 180 was $625. I like it a lot. I can weld up to 3/8 no problem and that's about as thick as I typically go.

 

Plenty of good used machines out there as well. Take a shot at craigslist and see what you find. Lots of people trying to make a few bucks on machines they don't use right now with the bad economy.

 

One of the biggest overlooked costs with 220v machines is getting power to them where you need to weld. You need a decent extension cord and that's a few $$. I built my own from 8/3 SOOW cord - it was still around $100 for the cord, end's, and such. If they don't get the amps they need they won't weld worth beans.

 

If you can find a gas bottle on sale you might get a decent sized one for $80 or so. Gas regulator will come with the quality machines - not sure about the HF one. But that's another $75 cost if it doesn't.

 

GD

Edited February 6, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[lostinthe202]

If you can find a gas bottle on sale you might get a decent sized one for $80 or so. Gas regulator will come with the quality machines - not sure about the HF one. But that's another $75 cost if it doesn't.

 

GD

 

Just check with your local gas supplier, some them won't fill bottles that aren't their own.

[Mugs]

I have welded with both good and bad welders. And I say you get what you pay for. I am currently using a friends cheepy made in Itally (I.E. harbor freight, costco, generic welders) and it sucks, it can't weld worth a crap...Neither can I but at least it I do a better job when it is a better welder. So I say hold out for a good 220. Check your local Craigslist and I bet you can find a killer used welding outfit for a great price.

 

Just my 2cents

[GeneralDisorder]

Yes - very important - if you don't know how to weld it's going to be 10x harder to learn on a crap machine. A good welder can make one work OK, but a novice will expose all it's flaws and turn out really poor welds.

 

Have you thought about a decent stick machine? I firmly beleive that you should learn at least AC/DC stick before you MIG weld anyway. Gas welding is optional these days and frankly is just as expensive as MIG if you have none of the gear. A decent stick machine can be had for almost nothing - a Lincoln tombstone can be had for $100 or less and can produce very strong welds even if they aren't the prettiest thing around.

 

GD

[DaveSluder]

Don't even bother with the Harbor Freight Welder!! That's gonna be a waste of time. I have a Lincoln 110 volt Welder I think it is 100 amps. Unless you are welding thick stuff like greater than 3/16ths. I have had this machine for about 12 years and it has been used and abused, and still performs flawlessly. I use it to weld on many automotive projects, and around the farm. I bought the base kit from Home Depot (just wire feed) and later added the gas kit. But really I have not used it as a mig machine in years. Flux core welding gets a bad wrap cause well, I don't know!! You can weld on "dirty" metal, never have to worry about running out of gas and you can ultimately weld thicker material with this process. Also you can use it outside with a breeze. I use a 12-3 HD extention cord and it works great!!

 

Don't waste your money on chinese junk, that's what it is!!

Lincoln is made in Cleveland Oh.

Best Luck!!

 

Dave:banana:

[GeneralDisorder]

Of the two, I prefer Miller over Lincoln, but they both make decent machines. I've used both in their 230v/460v range of machines and typically the Miller's weld a little cleaner. Though I do like the Lincoln Sqaure Wave TIG machines

 

FCAW (flux core) will do thicker material and handle dirty stuff a bit better - that's true. And there's no arguement from me that a 110v FCAW machine is a really useful tool to have - no gas bottle - all you need is a 110v extension cord. That's a very conveinent thing. That's what my old HF 110v machine is for now.

 

Just depends on what you are going to do with it. Small automotive stuff and sheet metal - 110v machine is a good choice. I wouldn't try building a trailer with one though nor would I trust it to weld 1/4" thick mild steel lift components for a Subaru.

 

GD

[monstaru]

i started out with a HF machine.POS.

 

my lincoln 140 is awesome.110....i use it fcaw.

 

everything i have welded for the past two years has stayed.and i have used it on 1/4 plate ......

 

i know guys that have used them to build their entire offroad rig that gets way more abuse than any ************in subaru known to man,rally included.

 

so whatever.it depends on your weld......

 

if you have inclusions,undercuts, etc...(those are types of weak areas in the weld) then you will not get the full psi out of the weld. now, if it was a perfect bead it would maintain that.

 

just FYi, the innershield .035 wire by lincoln(who invented the process) is

good to 70 thousand PSI

 

basically , if you lay down a good weld, ugly or not, it will hold to 70 psi.

 

my brother (a union ironworker)and i were just talking about this last night.

 

 

 

 

there are different ways to prep your piece to insure proper penetration.

this is very important when dealing with a smaller machine.or , when you are dealing with slightly thicker material than you are accustomed to.

 

i would not use my HF welder for anything anymore,cept maybe a doorstop....cheers, brian

[3eyedwagon]

I would rather own the cheapest Miller, Lincoln, or Hobart available than the most expensive Harbor Freight/Walmart POS.

 

With welders you definitely get what you pay for. There's no way around it. That 220v Harbor Freight pile of crap still won't be able to perform the tasks that a 110v Miller Lincoln or Hobart will. I've used pretty much all of the 110v light duty welders from "the big 3", and they are all pretty equally matched. And just for the record; if you know how to run one, you can get ALOT more than 1/4" steel welded together. I have alot of bumpers around here that are 5/16" plate that were all welded single pass with .030 solid wire. No problems whatsoever. I also know of alot of 3/4" and 1" lifting/pulling eyelets that I have personally welded with my Hobart Handler 145. I haven't noticed any of them broken yet. With proper preparation you can weld pretty heavy stuff with one of these little machines. The problem is that most people just don't want to do the prep work. They want to take to rusty, painted chunks of crap, and stick them together as quickly as possible. If that's your mission; flux core wire will suit you well. If you want good looking welds, and like doing precision work; the bottles are worth dragging around.

 

The point is that you can find one of the big 3 machines for around $600, and then purchase a bottle/regulator when you have more money. There is no tricky "adaptation" or upgrading.

 

You will be far better off with one of these machines in the long run. If you have the money; my first recomendation would be to go for a Miller. They have won so many awards consecutively for so many years, it's really kinda sad. They make the best, especially in MIG machines (with maybe the one exception being suitcases). Next up I'd pick a Hobart. It is a Canadian brand name, built in America for some unknown reason. The internals are almost all interchangable with the Millers of the same era. Lastly; Lincoln. They have good stuff if you stay away from the big chain stores. Unfortunately they are known for using cheap drive rollers, and contact switches on the grey line machines, and that really hurts their reputation on these light duty 110 machines.

 

PS: Just because it needs to be said. This is yet another situation where 10 seconds worth of searching would have netted all the answers you could have ever wanted. I guess you just like being reminded to pull your head out.

 

http://ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=95992&highlight=welder&page=2

 

http://ultimatesubaru.org/forum/search.php?searchid=941459

[rlsimpso]

Don't waste you money on a cheap welder. You will end up spending more when you realize it is crap and have to buy a better one.

 

Lincoln and Miller and both very good. I am partial to Miller, mainly because the pros I know use them. I only know few pros though, so that may not be saying much.

 

You might look at a Hobart Handler 140. I got one about 4 months ago and am very happy with it. Northern tool has them for about $500 usually will free shipping and a free cart. The cart is a bit crap, but what do you want for free.

 

It is a 120 Volt MIG. It comes with flux core so you can weld right out of the box. (I wouldn't do auto body with flux core. The heat required to melt the wire can cause a lot of burn through on thin metal) It has infinite wire speed and four current settings.

 

It would be nice to have infinite current, like on a more expensive Miller or Lincoln, but for the price, I can't complain. You just have to watch the puddle a move the torch faster to keep your bead from spreading.

 

It comes with a regulator so all you will need a is bottle. I bought a bottle from Airgas as they exchange them when you get a refill. I spent about $220 on the 120 (i think) bottle, which is supposed to be good for 4 hours of continuous welding. The price of entry is higher, but the refill price is only $5 more for twice gas. There is an exchange/upgrade deal, so you can change sizes when you need to. I went to the larger one mainly because I managed to run out of gas twice with smaller ones. Also, the larger bottles have nicer valves, and they look cooler then the little ones

 

Hobart is owned by Miller and the torch is a Miller, which is nice because consumables are readily available. I run .023 wire for sheet and .030 for thicker stuff and it works very well. It should handle .035, but only being 120, it may not have enough power to get good penetration on metal thick enough to need wire that thick.

 

Be sure to switch the polarity if you start using shielding gas as is it set up positive out of the box.

 

Also, get an auto dimming helmet. It is so nice to see what you are doing before, during, and after a weld.

 

Just to say it again, like other have said already, good preparation is essential for a good weld. Make sure the parts are clean before welding. Check your fit up and make sure it is even. It really makes a difference in the quality of your welds.

[GeneralDisorder]

Welding very thick material with a 110 machine is of course possible. But the penetration you get with 220v makes for better and faster welds with less work/prep and causes less heating of the general area. Heat causes warpage, and ultimately warpage causes stress in the finished part. This may or may not be an issue - depends on the job you are doing. Mild steel warps a lot less than stainless for example.

 

Also - there are a lot of these "super 110's" out now. 140 or 145 amps from these small machines makes them a lot more capable and especially with the addition of flux-core. As mentioned though - flux core still leaves you with slag to deal with and sheilding gas does not. I find very few uses for my FCAW machine - I would much rather bring my welding into the shop and have nice clean welds.

 

The price of the super 110's is very nearly the price of a good entry level 220v machine and I would much rather have the 220 machine if I could only have one. Also these machines need a pretty large circuit and decent sized extension cord to unlock their potential. You have to get the amps from somewhere, and you aren't going to run one with a 15 amp breaker and a 14 AWG lamp cord unless it's on a very low setting.

 

As much as everyone claims the chinese machines are junk (and yes - they are MUCH cheaper made than the pro stuff), they can be had for almost nothing by comparison and they CAN weld and do a decent job of it if you know how to run them. Also there is a large number of them out there and the mods that are well documented make them more capable than "straight out of the box". Would I use one if I had a choice? - no. I would use my AC stick machine before I would try to weld anything substantial with my 110 HF machine, but it's better than two car batteries, jumper cables, and coat hanger.

 

GD

Edited February 9, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[monstaru]

FYI Will, a tech friend of mine at OXArc looked at my machine and said it is exactly the same as the ones sold at their store.no differences, and i bought mine at lowes...........soooo.cheers, brian

[Scott in Bellingham]

i.

 

i would not use my HF welder for anything anymore,cept maybe a doorstop....cheers, brian

 

Brian sell it to Uberoo and save him some money he is ready to buy

[Legacy777]

Out of curiousity, anybody have any experience with the millermatic machines with "Auto-set"? How well does it work to have the machine pick the feed speed & voltage?

[3eyedwagon]

If you actually got the same machine as available through dealers; you may have gotten lucky. However, there is no way to deny that Lincoln has been making (or having made) two classes of light duty 110 machines. I've tore more of these apart than I care to remember in college. The contact switches (which look identical) are definitely not of the same caliber. The two wire wiring harness going to the switch was the easiest way to spot what machine you're dealing with. The drive roll system on the grey line machines is of the same design however it is straight from Firepower, and doesn't belong in a gumball machine, let alone a welder. It may be something they've rectified in more recent months. I haven't worked on any of these little guys (except my own) since 2007. However, they gained a bad reputation on these 110 machines because of that grey line stuff. It hurt their name amongst knowledgeable welders. It's a shame, because their high end stuff is very good, and competitive. I enjoy some Lincoln stuff, but, it should be known that these crappy grey line machines are out there, and Miller, or Hobart sure as hell didn't sneak them on to the market.

 

FYI Will, a tech friend of mine at OXArc looked at my machine and said it is exactly the same as the ones sold at their store.no differences, and i bought mine at lowes...........soooo.cheers, brian

[3eyedwagon]

Out of curiousity, anybody have any experience with the millermatic machines with "Auto-set"? How well does it work to have the machine pick the feed speed & voltage?

 

They work very well. It is actually a pretty cool little piece of technology to adjust to any random welders style. Not rocket science, but still, pretty neat. You just dial the settings to match the material being used, and the material being welded on, and away you go. In that sense; it works. It will get you welding.

 

That being said, I would never reccomend it OVER actually learning a little bit about the welding process, and being competent enough to pick your own settings. It is a good way to get a new person involved, but, once that person learns enough it is easily ignored in favor of adjusting the settings on his/her own.

 

I think you may get my reccomendation here. It is a good thing for Noobs, but, you will never see real experienced welders falling in love with it. And the people that just use the auto-set forever, and never learn about the rest of the settings, and what they can do. Well, they will never use the machine to even half of its' capabilities.

[Legacy777]

Thanks for the feedback! I definitely agree with you on learning how to set things up but didn't know if the auto set was a gimmick or not.

[WRX2FFU]

I vote buy a good welder. It's really an investment.

 

I have welded with a 220v lincoln mig and my 220v hobart mig (miller). They are both great with flux wire and gas.

 

I have used a HF special and hated every minute of it.