92 Legacy AT start problem

[LegacyPsycho]

I have a 92 legacy 2.2 AT 4 door that has been giving me rare starting problems. It simply wont crank. I dont even hear the solenoid click when the key is turned, but all the other power seems to work fine.

 

My wife and I share this car and I drive it to work at night and she uses it for work/errands during the day. I have never experienced the problem but the wife has a few times when she comes out after a short errand and the car is still warm. It won't crank over for her. This happens very infrequently, every few months.

 

She usually calls me rather upset about the situation and since we only have the one car, and she knows absolutely nothing about them, so much that she can't accurately describe the problem, I was led to believe it was the battery. I had her find a friend to jump her... but before they got there the car would always end up starting (usually about 20 minutes after the problem was discovered, about an hour after the car was parked)

 

Well the problem happened again while she was on the complete opposite side of town and we decided to wait it out since it usually worked after a while. a few hours later, still no start, we towed the car home and still no start. We tried starting it while it was being pulled, since i've read that having the car in gear at 40mph+ will be enough to 'push start' an AT. But nothing.

 

Since then i have replaced the starter and the problem still exists. All the power in the car seems to work fine but there is simply no activity in the engine bay when the key is turned.

 

Now the car doesn't like to come out of park unless the button near the base of the shifter is pushed (didn't even know what it was there for til i realized it released the stuck shifter when the problem developed to this point)

 

It seems like the problem is either my ignition switch or some kinda park safety switch. I can source both parts cheaply at a local scrap yard but its kinda far and im using a bicycle/bus to get around. Id like to get both parts in 1 trip but cant even figure out where the park switch is. google has supplied answers that its in the tranny, or in the shifter console, or in a few other different areas. I imagine im screwed if its in the tranny.

 

Maybe there is something im overlooking as well. So i am hoping this thread helps produce some answers. I am mechanically minded but broke as it gets and dont have a voltmeter. so hopefully someone has had this exact problem and can point me in the right direction.

 

oh yeah. I have cleaned my battery terminals and all wires related to the starting system when i was doing the replacement.

 

Thanks a ton for replies. And thanks for the great resource this site provides.

[LegacyPsycho]

So i just took apart both my center console and my steering wheel column. I was hoping something obvious would slap me in the face but it didn't. I did not find any obvious switch in the shifter assembly, just the mechanical contraption that locks the shifter in park. I was only able to look so closely though as i could not get the entire molded shifter off without cutting the wires that run up to the "manual" button.

 

On the ignition switch, opposite side of where you put your key in, there is a harness that run to a circle plate with 5 or 6 wires soldered to it. All the connections were fine but the whole plate was very slightly loose. I could not jiggle it any looser and playing with it obviously help anything reconnect and allow my car to start. is this normal or is this likely my problem? i am not so familiar with the electronics but imagine its just an interface plate that holds wires in place to connect to other wires on the inside of the ignition. In that case being loose doesn't seem like it would be an issue. But if they are actually contacts or something else in there maybe it would be?

 

I suppose im more or less blind without a voltmeter, but the work i did in the snow this morning will make life easier the when i get one and can start looking for where the power is getting cut out. Even when I get one though its where i start stumbling. mechanics ok, electrics not so much.

 

Are there any free online manuals that cover this for my car specifically? or can someone walk me thru what i need to check to find the problem?

Edited February 7, 2010 by LegacyPsycho

[OB99W]

Have you tried starting in both Park and Neutral?

 

See if anything here helps:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=51028

[LegacyPsycho]

Have you tried starting in both Park and Neutral?

 

See if anything here helps:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=51028

 

it will not start in neutral.

 

the shifter will not come out of park by turning the key to on or start and pushing the shifter button and the brake pedal. i am pretty sure it wont even let me depress the shifter button til i push the black button at the base to manually release the locking bracket. after looking at that thread it would seem the solenoid underneath it isn't receiving a signal to disengage when i push my brake pedal like it usually would. This is not really a problem though because the car should still start in neutral then eh?

 

I went threw about 20 pages of loosely defined search results on this site and came across the "push button relay" option. I haven't even looked deeply into it yet but it seems like it would be a surefire way around this problem, knowing that my battery and starter are both functioning. If my ignition switch is still operating normally in every other obvious aspect, would the car still operate normally doing something like this?

 

Would the push switch also have to tap into your ignition system? doesn't seem like leaving it as its own circuit would be a security risk since you would still need the key to unlock the steering wheel and provide the car with the on signal it needs for everything else to power up.

Edited February 7, 2010 by LegacyPsycho

[GeneralDisorder]

Just install a relay between the existing solenoid wire and the starter - use the solenoid wire for the relay coil and run a hot lead from the battery (fused) to the relay contact and then other side of the contact to the solenoid.

 

I just did the same fix in a '91 AT - same problem. Intermittant start. It's not the ignition switch - the previous owner had the dealer change that out less than 10,000 miles ago. It's just that the ageing wireing can't pass enough current to kick the solenoid hard enough. You can swap/replace components all day and in the end it will just keep comming back till you fix it with a relay.

 

This is a pretty common problem on older Subaru's - I've done about half a dozen relay's by now. It's a 100% success rate for me. I drive the '91 daily and since I installed the relay it has started flawlessly every time - been several months now.

 

You do not need a push-button - you use the stock ignition switch and instead of fireing the solenoid directly it fires the relay. They will pass enough current to close a relay contact easily.

 

GD

[LegacyPsycho]

Just install a relay between the existing solenoid wire and the starter - use the solenoid wire for the relay coil and run a hot lead from the battery (fused) to the relay contact and then other side of the contact to the solenoid.

 

...

 

You do not need a push-button - you use the stock ignition switch and instead of fireing the solenoid directly it fires the relay. They will pass enough current to close a relay contact easily.

 

GD

 

I love the confidence you have about solving my problem and i will go this route tomorrow when I can get to the parts store for some supplies.

 

i edited this post cause i figured i would figure it out tomorrow, but thanks so much for the more detailed response i originally requested!

Edited February 7, 2010 by LegacyPsycho

[GeneralDisorder]

No problem - I'll help with what I can. If you need talked through it over the phone send me a PM and I'll give you my number.

 

All you are going to have to do is cut/strip/crimp some wires and spade terminals.

 

You will need a relay - I typically have used Subaru relay's around but you can use any 12v normally-open relay. Most auto parts stores will carry something in a blister pack - like a Bosch, etc. On the side of the relay will be printed it's "pinout". There will likely be spade terminals - either 1 through 4 or 1 through 5 depending on the relay type. You will see that two of them in the diagram pass through a rectangle - that's the coil inside the relay - when powered it causes the contacts to close. Two of the other pins will pass through a contact "gate" on the diagram - it will look like a raised bridge. You want to use the two contacts that are NOT closed on the diagram.

 

Now it's a simple matter of hooking up the wires to the right contacts. You will need to make three wires. First you will cut the end off the starter solenoid wire and crimp on a new female spade terminal. That will connect to one of the coil contacts - doesn't matter which one. The other side of the coil you will run to ground - which means any availible location on the engine/manifold/body, etc.

 

The other two wires will run from the battery, through a 15 amp fuse, and to the normally open contacts in the relay. The other side of the contacts runs to the starter solenoid where the original wire from the ingition switch was.

 

Here's a diagram I found online - instead of "starter button", you will be using the solenoid wire from the stock ignition switch:

 

 

A relay is simply a remotely activated switch - you turn it on with 12v. That's what you will be doing. The reason this works is that it takes a LOT less amps to turn "ON" the relay than it does to push out the plunger on the starter solenoid. Relays switch on a large voltage or current using a small voltage or current - ultimately they save on wireing and switching component costs and make things less bulky. In this case you are using them to advantage by taking the large solenoid load off your aging ignition switch and putting it instead on the relay. This will save your already damaged crank circuit from further decomposition.

 

GD

Edited February 7, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[LegacyPsycho]

Thanks again for all your help everyone that supplied info for me. Especially GD. If you haven't noticed already, please check your PMs GD as i need one last bit of help before i slap this wiring together, now that all the parts are in hand.

 

really small problem in actuality but getting it done with makes me feel so accomplished. lol.

[LegacyPsycho]

Problem update

 

As i was in a slight rush to get some things done i went ahead and did the push button switch directly from the battery to the starter. By the time i got everything done the battery was fairly well drained. (cold weather, car has been sitting a couple weeks, and a few failed starts are to blame) the battery was checked at a parts store not long ago and it has always held charge when its used at least weekly.

 

I had a neighbor come over and jump the car. we got everything hooked up all the dash lights came on and everything seemed fine. the car started right up on the first attempt but soon as i removed the jumper cables it died.

 

We put the cables back on but now there are no dash lights. everything else appears to work fine (windows, alert chimes, seatbelts, headlights) but the car will just crank and crank without starting.

 

I have more or less bypassed my ignition as far as the starter circuit is concerned, but i do still of course have the key in the ignition and turned to 'on' while trying to start. Does the ignition power the fuel pump? I'm wondering if the car was only burning what was in the lines and is now not getting fuel (doesn't explain the lack of dash lights now though), or does it control spark in any way (doesn't explain how it still started the first time)

 

I'm once again lost. any ideas/solutions?

 

Also, before doing the push button I set up the relay (per GD's instructions) with the stock ignition and got no positive results. I feel confident I had it hooked up correctly but it appears the starter solenoid wire is not even receiving a faint enough signal to allow the starter to get juice from the battery via the relay (i didn't even hear a click)

 

one final observation. before we hooked up the car to jumper cables, when the keys were in the ignition, the alert chime was beeping at a different than usual pace. Usually it stays on for a few seconds and then goes quiet, or it goes "beep beep beep" at a reasonable quick pace til you take the key out or close the door. When it changed it would beep slightly longer than usual, and then sit quiet for 4-5 seconds before beeping again, and keep doing that til you took the key out. it would do this while the ignition was in any position.

Edited February 8, 2010 by LegacyPsycho

[MilesFox]

check to see if you blew the #5 fuse (clock/horn/hazard) as this supplies constant voltage to the ecu.

 

i see what you are doing the bypass switch, i have had to do the same thing on several cars.

 

the least intrusive way to have started your car in an emergency would have been to bridge a wire between the battery and the solenoid tab on the starter to kick it over by hand.

 

another way is to eliminate the neutral safety in the shifter harness. if you pull up the shifter cover plate, you will see a connector, and the middle 2 wires have the largest gauge. you can splice these wires together to get the car to start with the key.

 

its a common problem on automatic subarus, and is never the starter itself.

 

good luck!

[GeneralDisorder]

Definitely check all the fuses and fusible links.

 

And Miles sugestion about the AT inhibitor is a good one. That might be part of why the relay isn't getting the signal from the ignition switch.

 

GD