Magnecor Ignition Cable

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

I went looking for plug wires. I remember GrossGary saying he had ran Magnecor and transferred to his driver when he sold the car.

 

Anyway, I found that Magnecor recommends their KV85 8.5mm wires on the '95 to '09 Subarus.

 

The '94 down Subarus have listings for 7, 8, and 8.5mm wires.

 

Prices range from $57.00 to $145.00 and they say the 8.5 wire squishes into the OEM 7mm wire holders.

 

There must have been a change in ignition or something in '95 to require the 8.5, don't you think? What is it?

 

Fill me in here. Old Subies have about 40,000 volt coils or something, right? Use to be that was a aftermarket high performance ignition system.

 

Thoughts?

 

Doug

[idosubaru]

I'm not sure why the earlier ones would differ though. I didn't know that about the older ones, interesting. Are the Subaru wires interchangeable between them, I would have assumed they were?

 

In general, Magnecor recognizes the EJ propensity to be very sensitive to ignition wires and has made a decision to supply the best wire for the job. They're very inexpensive so I'd go with the larger ones. I've run a bunch of sets and currently have them on mine.

[johnceggleston]

Prices range from $57.00 to $145.00

 

Doug

 

 

last time i looked, you could get subaru wires online for 40$ - 45$ plus shipping.

 

are the magnecor better than stock?

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

Other than buying from Magnecor, I've only saw one person selling on-line, and those are ebay listings. That seller only has the 7mm wires for '94 on down Subarus.

 

That low price I posted was for an EF-12, three short 8.8mm wires and a coil wire.

 

Those wires are available in 7mm and up for the EF-12.

 

I don't know if they are "better" than OEM for the '95 up cars. I do believe plug wires can be a maintence item like spark plugs.

 

That brings me to which Subarus have coil on plug?

 

I've never worked on these EJ's.

 

Doug

 

Edit: Only thing I can come up with is possibly the introduction of OBD2.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Quidam

[idosubaru]

Hey,

 

Other than buying from Magnecor, I've only saw one person selling on-line, and those are ebay listings.

 

Google for magnecor lists a number of suppliers of Magnecor wires. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=magnecor+wires&aq=***&aqi=g10&oq=&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8

 

I forget who I've ordered from but I've always ordered mine online. They are substantially cheaper to buy from a vendor than from Magnecor.

 

I don't know if they are "better" than OEM for the '95 up cars.

I'm not going to say better but I've never had issues with Magnecor wires, even ones that have over 100,000 miles on them. They used to advertise exceptional life out of their wires...and maybe a lifetime warranty? To that end I think they may outlast Subaru wires, but my sample size is to small to mean anything quantitatively. I've gotten 100,000+ miles and will not be surprised to get 200,000 miles out of the sets I own. Most folks probably don't plan on owning cars that they're replacing wires on for another 100,000 miles though so it's hardly worth the time discussing for 99% of folks out there.

 

OBDII makes sense - maybe that's more sensitive to cylinder misfires?

[Setright]

I fitted the Electrosports...what are they...7mm? Simply because they are blue and match my 555 Blue Impreza

 

I reckon the extra money for the 8.5 is wasted on a stock ignition system. Still,, not a huge price difference..so go for the best colour

[Quidam]

Hey Gary,

 

I took another look at the download and this was near the front page:

 

Some sets are only available in our KV85 Competition 8.5mm cable, even though the original size is

7mm. We do this because these engines sometimes experience serious EMI problems (particularly on

modified engines) and KV85 Competition 8.5mm cable is the best choice.

 

A lot of misfire code reports here it seems...

[GeneralDisorder]

With modern wires being made from silicone, you don't see many wire failures unless the end connectors rust or corrode. That can be prevented with some silicone dielectric grease. A set of OEM wires will typically have to be replaced once durring the life of the car - if even that. I don't see the point of the Magnecor's personally.

 

Back when wire sheathing was rubber - they would break down eventually. I just don't see it with modern wire design though - not for the price.

 

Much better for my wallet to just buy an OEM set every 100k.

 

GD

[Fairtax4me]

I'd imagine this could be because of the EAs having distributor ignition, and the EJs having wasted spark direct ignition. But the 94 should have the same coil as the 95-xx IIRC.

Ignition noise (EMI) will have a big effect on OBD2 control systems whereas OBD1 cars don't generally care whats going on because the ECU isn't as sensitive.

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

I looked at the Magnecor stuff some more. The Ford 2.3T,some Lotus, Subaru, Toyota, and probably a couple more are listed with the 8.5 wire available.

 

The 7mm and 8mm are not available for these cars. Of course, MC will build anything you want.

 

But they have a good reason, I don't think they would leave money on the table when they could easily list and sell the cheaper sets.

 

Doug

 

Edit: Keep in mind I've never worked on an EJ. It looks like they say it's because of EMI. Ok, what exactly does it effect in the electronics. Induction induced detonation is one possibility, always has been in the right situation.

 

But as Gloyale pointed out in another thread, Subaru uses some shields and tape?

 

Of course, the easiest thing to do is seperate them by like 12mm to stop induction.

 

Doug

Edited February 11, 2010 by Quidam

[idosubaru]

You looking for alternatives to Subaru/Magnecor wires or work arounds or...?

 

I've used one set on up to 3 different daily drivers over the years. Easy solution to cylinder misfires, poor running, and no starts, and cheap for long term service.

[GeneralDisorder]

Edit: Keep in mind I've never worked on an EJ. It looks like they say it's because of EMI. Ok, what exactly does it effect in the electronics. Induction induced detonation is one possibility, always has been in the right situation.

 

But as Gloyale pointed out in another thread, Subaru uses some shields and tape?

 

Of course, the easiest thing to do is seperate them by like 12mm to stop induction.

 

Induction between the plug leads is a literal impossibility on the EJ's since they use a wasted spark "bank fired" ignition system. Both of the plug's in each head fire at the same time. One is on the exhaust stroke so accomplishes nothing but since both wires are carrying the same current from the same coil (the "coil pack" is really just two coil's molded into the same plastic case), they both have equal magnetic fields and thus no induction will occur to speak of.

 

Oh - and since you haven't worked on an EJ, you probably aren't aware that the two sets of wires - 2 for each bank, are seperated by 5" or so on either side of the coil pack - so induction can't occur between say #1 and #2 cylinder's, etc. The plugs, wires, and all that are on seperate sides of the engine with the coil pack centrally located on top of the intake manifold.

 

What you have to worry about is induction between the plug lead and any other sensor wiring nearby - which could cause erroneous readings in the ECU and cause phantom codes or odd behaviour, etc. Combating this is an excersize in good wire insulation and wire routing. If the stock wire routing is used, no additional insulation should be required - but I'm betting the OEM wires are a good bit better insulated even at their 7mm size than aftermarket 7mm stuff is - thus the need to go to larger wire sizes (more insulation) when you buy aftermarket wires. An 8mm aftermarket might have the same insulation levels as the stock 7mm. There's nothing saying the OD of the wire has to dictate the conductor/insulator sizing - manufacturer's can build them with more/less insulation depending on OEM requirements.

 

GD

Edited February 11, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[idosubaru]

I'm betting the OEM wires are a good bit better insulated even at their 7mm size than aftermarket 7mm stuff is - thus the need to go to larger wire sizes (more insulation) when you buy aftermarket wires. An 8mm aftermarket might have the same insulation levels as the stock 7mm.

Another option is they may want to outlast the OEM ones. That's been true in the past including older Subaru's, so seems reasonable to give them some chance at continuing to produce quality products now.

 

I'm not much on aftermarket parts, but in this case i like their product and vision. Or I did, I haven't made any comparisons in years so I'm basing this on decisions made a decace+ ago and the experience since that time.

 

OEM wires don't typically hold up to swapping onto multiple vehicles for the kind of miles I've gotten. I've been able to do that with Magnecors.

[Quidam]

Hey GD,

 

Ok, clear something up for me. You're saying one part of the coil pack fires 1 and 3 at the same time.

 

The other side of the coil pack fires 2 and 4.

 

I was thinking it would be 1 and 4 on one coil pack with 2 and 3 on the other.

 

Doug

 

Edit: Or fire 1 and 2 off one coil with 3 and 4 on the other. Magnecor gives NGK good marks for their construction of the carbon core wires, btw. For that type of wire.

 

To induce say, #3 to fire off of #1 when it's fired...the plug wires would have to be close to each other. Like wires are ran on the EA-82T, right next to each other and touching in places. 1 and 3 consecutive in the firing order, both of them by a matter of degree pulling in the intake charge.

 

Edit: Say #1 fires at 36* BTDC to produce good leverage to the crank via the piston/rod 7 or 12* ATDC.

 

The intake charge is loaded for #3 and going up on compression. It gets a premature spark via induction and lights off.

 

If that's wrong, let me know please.

 

Sincerely,

 

Doug

Edited February 11, 2010 by Quidam

[Quidam]

Hey GD,

 

I thought of something you could try. Tape # 5 and #7 plug wires together on your Chevy. ***.O. 18436 57 2. And see what happens.

 

Doug

[GeneralDisorder]

Hhhmmm - yes upon reflection it would seem that I have it backwards - it's 1/2 and 3/4 that fire together. The wasted spark needs to occur in the cylinder that is 180 degree's out of phase with the one that's on the compression stroke.

 

So you probably could see an induced spark if the wires were bad enough and crossed closely enough. The EJ's have very neat and tidy routing though due to the coil pack being in the center of the intake manifold and as such they don't lend themselves to crossing easily like my Chevy SB.

 

It doesn't change the fact that the OEM wires are both inexpensive and constructed with silicone and other materials that really just don't break down much. I have yet to find a bad OEM wire set that wasn't due to rust/corrosion on the plug ends - which can easily be averted with some dielectric grease.

 

GD

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

I'm pretty sure Subaru doesn't make their own wires. I had one set of Genuine Subaru. Silicon boots and outer layer, but still carbon core. Possibly made by NGK?

 

Magna core claims that it's the carbon core that eventually breaks down. Where theirs are stainless spiro hooked wire to wire one end to the other around a ferro core.

 

At least I see how they can warrantee them for life to the original owner and last longer, as Gary suggested.

 

If as time passes and the core breaks down, gets corroded as you state, etc. There will also be more compression in the intended cylinder (#1) than #3. It will take the path of least resistence.

 

Doug

[GeneralDisorder]

If as time passes and the core breaks down, gets corroded as you state, etc. There will also be more compression in the intended cylinder (#1) than #3. It will take the path of least resistence.

 

The system is designed to fire both plugs. The one on the exhaust stroke helps to burn any remaining fuel vapor and helps with emissions. In fact that was the original intention of the wasted spark system - so there was always a second spark on the exhaust stroke of each cylinder. Manufacturer's have continued to use it though as it is cheaper to produce since you save on the coil pack, ECU complexity, and wireing.

 

At any rate - I've seen plug wires that were original equipment on first generation Legacy's with over 200k and near 20 years on them still working just fine. At what point do you just cut your losses and figure if the OEM set lasts that long why bother spending 3x as much for something I will replace once or may never replace?

 

NGK wires seem to be very good for the price. I don't beleive they are the OEM but it's possible. The NGK sets I've used didn't look like rebranded OEM as is so common with aftermarket parts made by the same supplier as the OEM part. But NGK is large and may make them at different facilities or something.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

200k probably replaced early by Subaru and more importantly is that considered expected out of EJ engine ignition cables? I think most would say no, particularly for Phase II which by far has the most issues. Magnecors don't cost 3x OEM. I'm not looking for any answers or feedback to any of that, but we understand your filter is OEM and better wires are not available. I agree no one needs to buy Magnecors and I rarely mention them. This isn't about right/wrong, I think they're a good fit for a few folks. They can outlast OEM wires, have excellent customer service and warranties to facilitate that. Subaru doesn't offer that. I buy them for those reasons, not for the hype, colors, or GO GO powa I'm not sure someone with zero experience adds much to keep bashing them and looking for any and every way to negate a possible good fit for someone else. We understand you have a zero tolerance for aftermarket cables, all responses towards that end will be to negate them and you disagree with most of what I just typed.

Edited February 12, 2010 by grossgary

[GeneralDisorder]

I'm sure they have their uses - I'm just pointing out the other side of the argument.

 

Are there any ignition upgrades that might require a larger wire set? I really haven't looked into it with EJ's.

 

GD

[Quidam]

Hey,

 

Can of worms:) I didn't know the wasted spark helped emissions. Boy, you know some people, old people, like me, have a long history with plug wires. I know people can tell you all kinds of stories, seeing them glow after dark, getting bit by them. If you get bit by touching a good looking plug wire, you know things aren't what they look like.

 

I'd urge Gary to try something: Grab a Magnecor with your hand, I'm pretty sure he won't get bit.

 

What I'm wondering is the voltage output of the coils in question. 20,000, 45,000?

 

Me, I'm all for coil on plug and coil near plug. But it costs more. People will deal with plug wires for a long time to come, but I hope they're on their way out.

 

GD, your Chevy, with the two cylinders next to each other, and consequetive in the firing order. If you have induction from #5 to #7, and it lights off #7, that's detonation. The Subaru has two cylinders at risk from that, #3 and #4.

 

An EF-12 firing order is 1 3 2, #2 can get pounded by detonation, 2 and 3 side by side in the block. So if #2 cylinder is wasted in a Justy, that's what I'd suspect.

 

Now, a 2.7 an 3.3 Subaru has a firing order of 1 6 3 2 5 4. None of them are together in the block so the chance of induction and detonation is practically eliminated in those engines.

 

An then the issue of EMI...Remember, MSD says NGK does a good job with the carbon core construction. That it does a good job with EMI too, untill the core starts breaking down. That's when you get bit by them:) It's said that EMI is like the electronics "hearing" radio static. Not by induction. So if you have crossfires, sparks to ground, etc...noise. What would that effect in a Subaru?

 

But for now, how much voltage does an EJ coil put out?

 

Doug

Edited February 12, 2010 by Quidam

[idosubaru]

I'd urge Gary to try something: Grab a Magnecor with your hand, I'm pretty sure he won't get bit.

Hey that's not very nice! I've been shocked before guess I could handle it again

 

Other than running a few sets I'm not versed enough to talk about all that, you guys are way past me.

 

I was wondering about the unburnt fuel?

 

A certain percentage will always go unburnt right? It's not just because it's too rich? Unless of course you buy the Basalt Magnum Super Triple Plated HP spark plugs

 

And - if there's enough to burn worth worrying about does that "reduce" power by impeding the piston or increase it, or nothing? I'm not sure where it is on it's stroke but was curious.

[GeneralDisorder]

I was wondering about the unburnt fuel?

 

A certain percentage will always go unburnt right? It's not just because it's too rich? Unless of course you buy the Basalt Magnum Super Triple Plated HP spark plugs

 

And - if there's enough to burn worth worrying about does that "reduce" power by impeding the piston or increase it, or nothing? I'm not sure where it is on it's stroke but was curious.

 

My speculation is that it would help mostly when the engine is cold - the cold cylinder walls tend to collect droplets of fuel like a cold soda can in a warm room - the fuel is then vaporized but not burnt durring the combustion cycle and the extra spark durring the exhaust stroke lights it off.

 

It may also help at WOT conditions where the fuel is at a much higher ratio than at idle or criuse. WOT mixtures can be as saturated as 12:1 or more with turbo-charging. Especially with turbo's as more fuel is added to cool the combustion - some of that rich mixture just isn't going to burn and so the extra spark has a chance to take some of it out before it gets to the cat - takes some of the load off the cat under the right circumstances.

 

GD

[naru]

It is not called "wasted" spark for nothing.The exhaust stroke spark doesn`t reduce emissions.The mixture is already burning and a second ignition source at this late date contributes nothing.Wasted spark was introduced for reliability and economic reasons,not (direct) emission reduction.

 

You guys are discussing preignition,not detonation.

 

Plug wires will bite you when the insulation breaks down,not the core.

The latter makes the former more likely,but,that is another story.

 

Gotta agree that the Magnecors are mostly for the suckers though.

Got me once before I knew any better.

Edited February 13, 2010 by naru
spellink

[Quidam]

"You guys are discussing preignition,not detonation."

 

Ok, if induction prematurely ignites a cylinder, (I've called preignition pre-detonation for a long time), that cylinder will detonate...one of the worst forms of detonation there is.

 

"Plug wires will bite you when the insulation breaks down,not the core.

The laatter makes the former more likely,but,that is another story."

 

Ok. Come on Gary, grab hold of your Magnecore wires with the engine running. And let us know what happens. It's still possible you can get bit, just not as likely.

 

I think it can be said that plug wires will bite you if the insulation breaks down. It can also be said, plug wires will bite you if the carbon core breaks down.

 

Doug

 

Edit: Prematurely ignite one cylinder, now what does that mean? Normally a cylinder fires 30-40* BTDC. If the spark is delivered 90* too early, the gases will light off at 120-130* BTC on the compression stroke. Piston on it's way up and it smacks head on into the expanding combustion process. Again, this is one of the worst forms of detonation.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Quidam