nipper Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) Drops out the exhaust pipe is normal. Cat glowing red is a fuel issue, not a valve issue. I dont think the velve job will correct the issue, but they correct it upon putting everything together (like a vac leak). nipper Edited February 17, 2010 by nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 Drops out the exhaust pipe is normal. Cat glowing red is a fuel issue, not a valve issue. I dont think the velve job will correct the issue, but they correct it upon putting everything together (like a vac leak). nipper Those were not water drops, they smelled gas... I agree, the issue may be fixed simply because of dis- assembly nad re-assembly. I also asked them, to replace few other things that are old, thanks to you advice from another thread last night. That list includes the coolant temp. sensor, which I suspected from the very beginning, but they were swearing that it tested fine, and quoted me 1.5 hours of labor for replacing it... We'll see. At least hopefully I'll get the issues fixed and engine life extended for another couple of years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 and quoted me 1.5 hours of labor for replacing it... To change the Coolant Temp Sender? Good grief! I could do it in a half-hour and I don't even claim to be a mechanic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 To change the Coolant Temp Sender? Good grief! I could do it in a half-hour and I don't even claim to be a mechanic! OK, I'm no mechanic either, I've never done it on a Legacy, have no clue were the thing is myself. Given that accessin almost anything on this engine requires either taking out all the air filter assy, or battery and windshield washer, or both, I can see how it might take that much to get to it, and put everything back together afterwards. Does coolant have to be drained in order to replace the sensor? Is the Subaru factory manual with labor hours required for each job available somewhere? -Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Granted it's not the easiest thing to get to. On my '95 EJ22 it's below the IACV, toward the rear of the engine, passenger side. I removed the IACV for a thorough cleaning so access was relatively easy. For a pic of the location see post #7 here: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=75009&highlight=coolant+temp+sensor Does coolant have to be drained in order to replace the sensor? No. A little bit will dribble out but no big thing (at least when I did mine.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 If fuel is actually dripping out the exhaust I will state again the fuel pressure regulator appears to be bad. The glowing red CAT seems to comfirm too much fuel is getting into the engine. I would have to wonder what the signal from the O2 sensor is showing but I think I know already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 If fuel is actually dripping out the exhaust I will state again the fuel pressure regulator appears to be bad. The glowing red CAT seems to comfirm too much fuel is getting into the engine. I would have to wonder what the signal from the O2 sensor is showing but I think I know already. Why would FPR mis-behave only when engine is very cold, and behave normal when it is warm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Why would FPR mis-behave only when engine is very cold, and behave normal when it is warm? One of two things. Either the FPR is sticking, or more likely, some vacume leak that clses itself up as the engine heats up and everything expands. If it is a sticking FPR (again that would have been easy to find with a pressure gauge), it will show up after they are done. If it is the scond, they may fix it by sheer luck. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 (edited) One of two things. Either the FPR is sticking, or more likely, some vacume leak that clses itself up as the engine heats up and everything expands. If it is a sticking FPR (again that would have been easy to find with a pressure gauge), it will show up after they are done. If it is the scond, they may fix it by sheer luck. nipper Should I aks them to replace FPR also, it's original, 135K miles old. Do they fail often? Expensive? As I am deep in it anyways, and I would really need to have the car back tomorrow and in working order for the long trip upstate NY.... Edited February 18, 2010 by 740gle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I've never seen or heard of an FPR failure or seen mention of it online until now for EJ stuff. they fail on the older ones and anything *can* fail so it's possible but rare on EJ's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Should I aks them to replace FPR also, it's original, 135K miles old. Do they fail often? Expensive?As I am deep in it anyways, and I would really need to have the car back tomorrow and in working order for the long trip upstate NY.... NO! Only chnage one thing at a time, but the way this shop is going, it will be pure luck that they find the cause or fix the probblem because they have no idea on how to diagnose a problem. I would laugh like hell if this comes all down to a bad CTS. I doubt they truly tested it, as the only way is to remove it, put in a pot with ice water, slowly heat the ice water to boiling while connected to a analog ohm meter. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 NO! Only chnage one thing at a time, but the way this shop is going, it will be pure luck that they find the cause or fix the probblem because they have no idea on how to diagnose a problem. I would laugh like hell if this comes all down to a bad CTS. I doubt they truly tested it, as the only way is to remove it, put in a pot with ice water, slowly heat the ice water to boiling while connected to a analog ohm meter. nipper I am with you.... But I am short on time to a point when it may be better for me to just go after everything at once... Why does it have to be analog ohm meter? What's wrong with DVOM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I am with you.... But I am short on time to a point when it may be better for me to just go after everything at once...Why does it have to be analog ohm meter? What's wrong with DVOM? DVMs work by sampling the data. They have a speed at which they take the signal, process it, and display it. Ever wonder why DVM's go from 19.00 up to 300.00 or more? Part of it is the features, the major part of it is the sampling rate. Even with the highest price DVM, it can still miss data due to sampling rates. This is why you should have a cheap analog meter, which is a constant reading. It is quite possible that a DVM can miss a dead spot in sensor that has a constantly variably analog signal. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 DVMs work by sampling the data. They have a speed at which they take the signal, process it, and display it. Ever wonder why DVM's go from 19.00 up to 300.00 or more? Part of it is the features, the major part of it is the sampling rate. Even with the highest price DVM, it can still miss data due to sampling rates. This is why you should have a cheap analog meter, which is a constant reading. It is quite possible that a DVM can miss a dead spot in sensor that has a constantly variably analog signal. nipper Understood, where can I find the resistance curve for the temp. sensor? I have some manuals downloaded frm subaru, but that info is not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 NO! Only chnage one thing at a time, but the way this shop is going, it will be pure luck that they find the cause or fix the probblem because they have no idea on how to diagnose a problem. I would laugh like hell if this comes all down to a bad CTS. I doubt they truly tested it, as the only way is to remove it, put in a pot with ice water, slowly heat the ice water to boiling while connected to a analog ohm meter. nipper "they have no idea on how to diagnose a problem." You need to look in the mirror,my friend. The only way to test it? Try to get at least a handhold on reality. Reading the actual CTS signal that the computer sees w/a Select Monitor or other scan tool is much superior to your long-winded approach. Your emphasis on an analogue meter is misplaced. The unburnt fuel is from the misfiring cyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 Reading the actual CTS signal that the computer sees w/a Select Monitor or other scan tool is much superior to your long-winded approach. . Would a fancy OBD-II reader be capable of doing that, or is some proprietary Subaru thingy necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Understood, where can I find the resistance curve for the temp. sensor? I have some manuals downloaded frm subaru, but that info is not there. Haynes has the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 "they have no idea on how to diagnose a problem." You need to look in the mirror,my friend. The only way to test it? Try to get at least a handhold on reality. Reading the actual CTS signal that the computer sees w/a Select Monitor or other scan tool is much superior to your long-winded approach. Your emphasis on an analogue meter is misplaced. The unburnt fuel is from the misfiring cyl. And you my freind, cant say for sure what it is either, Need i point out taht anydiagnoses on a board is speculation since we do not have the car in our driveways or shops, and the car is fully disassembled at this point. So my freind, you may be just as wrong as you think I am. Either way, I still have my doubts as to the valves being the issue. And sorry I have seen OBDII scanners miss CTS sensors dead spots especially if the problem is intermittent. Even the OBDII has a sampling rate as does ALL digital readers. In this case I think the shop is releying on the monitor and skipping common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 (edited) To have as much unburned fuel cause the CAT to glow red and still drip out the exhaust pipe would have to be way more than just a simple misfire problem I would have to say. Either the injectors are staying open too long or the FPR is hosed. That's my thoughts anyways, but I've been wrong before and may be here also. Edited February 18, 2010 by Cougar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Would a fancy OBD-II reader be capable of doing that, or is some proprietary Subaru thingy necessary? If it is a model w/live data.Slightly pricier than the very basic models. It is a waste of time,though.It has been tested. If you really must check yourself,leave it in the car and measure resistance as the engine warms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 And you my freind, cant say for sure what it is either, Need i point out taht anydiagnoses on a board is speculation since we do not have the car in our driveways or shops, and the car is fully disassembled at this point. So my freind, you may be just as wrong as you think I am. Either way, I still have my doubts as to the valves being the issue. And sorry I have seen OBDII scanners miss CTS sensors dead spots especially if the problem is intermittent. Even the OBDII has a sampling rate as does ALL digital readers. In this case I think the shop is releying on the monitor and skipping common sense. A momentary glitch in the CTS is not going to cause steadily poor running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 To have as much unburned fuel cause the CAT to glow red and still drip out the exhaust pipe would have to be way more than just a simple misfire problem I would have to say. Either the injectors are staying open too long or the FPR is hosed. That's my thoughts anyways, but I've been wrong before and may be here also. Well, it's not like it was "dripping"... There were drops in the exhaust gas, that one could see on the ground. And guys, remember - it all comes to normal as soon as the thing warms up... A little after the temp. guage in the cluster reachis is "normal" position around 9 o'clock. Yes, the car is being taken apart, and they are working on cleaning the valves, etc... I was just asking questions for the future.... So that I would not have to go back there again when things like this happens.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rverdoold Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Sorry to bump this old thread up, but I have a similar problem. The car drives fine all the time and very efficient as always. However if it was freezing overnight the next morning it starts very hard. It goes on on the 3rd cranck (not more then normal) but only runs at 200 or 300 rpm. If I engage gear and clutch the car tries to move. Then it suddenly jumps to 1200 rpm and runs fine. Except this morning. I gave some gas in the hope it would jump up but it flooded and was nearly unable to start for the next 10 / 15 attempts. Could this be related to the temperature senders. As far as I know there are two. 1 for the ECU and 1 for the meter in the dash. If I read from the ECU I assume I read the temp from the 1 only giving signal to the ECU and not to the dash meter. The motor is a ej16 from 1999 (impreza) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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