rxleone Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Okay guys, my carbed EJ22 project is gaining steam, and I need an adapter plate. I'm too far away to buy one from the states, so decided I'm going to make my own. But I've got a few questions. 1. Does anyone have a step-by-step guide for making one? (Sounds stupid I know, but I want to make it once and make it right) 2. All the time I see adapter plates on here with a big gaping hole in the bottom - Is this normal? Or is there a lip on the gearbox that this gap is designed for? Surely it can't be good to have a possiblity of a stone or even water flying into your clutch 3. Does anyone have any good recommendations for what kind of steel to use? 4. Do I need to use the dowel pins from the EJ engine, and if so, are there already dowel holes that match in the EA bellhousing? Sorry about some of these questions - I wish I could just walk outside and have a look at my wagon but I'm about 1000km away from it Any help would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 What are you adapting too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rxleone Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 What are you adapting too? Oh sorry, forgot to mention. 1989 DL Wagon, EA82, 5sp D/R. Am adapting an EJ22 to the original gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 1. Does anyone have a step-by-step guide for making one? (Sounds stupid I know, but I want to make it once and make it right) Probably not. But it's not all that hard if you have the right tools and some patience. A bit of experience with precision layout operation, a drill press, and at least a bandsaw to freehand the shape if you don't have a laser/water jet/etc would be prefered. Though I'm sure more crude tools could do the job if you wanted to be a month making it. 2. All the time I see adapter plates on here with a big gaping hole in the bottom - Is this normal? Or is there a lip on the gearbox that this gap is designed for? Surely it can't be good to have a possiblity of a stone or even water flying into your clutch This is covered by the splash plate that bolts to the bottom of the engine. There has to be a way for fluids (oil, water, etc) that get into the bell-housing from a leaking rear main, bad clutch fork boot, etc to drain away. 3. Does anyone have any good recommendations for what kind of steel to use? If I were going to free-hand the thing with a bandsaw or saber-saw (yikes), etc then I would use 1/2" (13mm) aluminium plate. Because the plate is open at the bottom you could pretty much do the whole plate using a band-saw. 4. Do I need to use the dowel pins from the EJ engine, and if so, are there already dowel holes that match in the EA bellhousing? You need the dowel pins from both - EA dowel pins go on the transmission side, EJ dowel pins go on the engine side. They are different sizes and in different locations and must be precisely located on the plate for proper shaft/pilot bearing alignment. This is THE most critical alignment of the plate. The rest is just bolt holes for bolting it all together. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rxleone Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 Probably not. But it's not all that hard if you have the right tools and some patience. A bit of experience with precision layout operation, a drill press, and at least a bandsaw to freehand the shape if you don't have a laser/water jet/etc would be prefered. Though I'm sure more crude tools could do the job if you wanted to be a month making it. This is covered by the splash plate that bolts to the bottom of the engine. There has to be a way for fluids (oil, water, etc) that get into the bell-housing from a leaking rear main, bad clutch fork boot, etc to drain away. If I were going to free-hand the thing with a bandsaw or saber-saw (yikes), etc then I would use 1/2" (13mm) aluminium plate. Because the plate is open at the bottom you could pretty much do the whole plate using a band-saw. You need the dowel pins from both - EA dowel pins go on the transmission side, EJ dowel pins go on the engine side. They are different sizes and in different locations and must be precisely located on the plate for proper shaft/pilot bearing alignment. This is THE most critical alignment of the plate. The rest is just bolt holes for bolting it all together. GD Thanks for the info! Was really concise and I think I've got a better idea of it now. I was wondering before - would it be possible to cut the bellhousing off a junkyard EA gearbox, somehow get it ground down flat to 1/2", and then just drill the EJ holes? Or is that just asking for trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I've made an adapter plate for my EA/EJ project. I can email you a drawing with the dimension for the holes on it. That will get you a step closer. As GD mentioned you'll need to be very careful laying out the dowel pin hole locations, but you could do it with a drill press then cut out the rest with a jig saw. You'll need to buy (or borrow if you know the right people) a couple of reamers for the dowel pins, 8mm and 6mm I think. PM me your email address if you're interested. and +1 on using aluminum instead of steel if you're working with hand tools. it'll need to be 12mm thick plate. If you have a metal recycler, you can see if they have anything that fits the bill and save a few bucks that way. Will- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealth Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Have pm'd Ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRX2FFU Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I've made an adapter plate for my EA/EJ project. I can email you a drawing with the dimension for the holes on it. That will get you a step closer. As GD mentioned you'll need to be very careful laying out the dowel pin hole locations, but you could do it with a drill press then cut out the rest with a jig saw. You'll need to buy (or borrow if you know the right people) a couple of reamers for the dowel pins, 8mm and 6mm I think. PM me your email address if you're interested. and +1 on using aluminum instead of steel if you're working with hand tools. it'll need to be 12mm thick plate. If you have a metal recycler, you can see if they have anything that fits the bill and save a few bucks that way. Will- Yeah, I ran into this with my scrap metal place. They had everything but. I settled on a piece of 5/8 plate steel. $20 and i just have to cut it out with the torch and fly cut it in the mill. Little extra work but worth the price difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Thanks for the info! Was really concise and I think I've got a better idea of it now. I was wondering before - would it be possible to cut the bellhousing off a junkyard EA gearbox, somehow get it ground down flat to 1/2", and then just drill the EJ holes? Or is that just asking for trouble? the EJ bellhousing is larger than the EA. so you wouldn't have enough materal. take a piece of cardboard. trace the inside edge of the EA bellhousing, and then the outside edge of the EJ. use the 2 studs at the bottom as reference, as these are the only hardware that lines up along the bellhousing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Thanks for the info! Was really concise and I think I've got a better idea of it now. I was wondering before - would it be possible to cut the bellhousing off a junkyard EA gearbox, somehow get it ground down flat to 1/2", and then just drill the EJ holes? Or is that just asking for trouble? There is no extra meat to drill into. The EJs bell is a larger "circle" so to speak. Cut of an EA bell, and you have no room for the EJ bolt holes. Cut off an EJ bell, and you have no room for the EA bolts. Needs to be about twice as wide as the original lip of the engines to accomadate both sets of holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txakura Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 take a piece of cardboard. trace the inside edge of the EA bellhousing, and then the outside edge of the EJ. use the 2 studs at the bottom as reference, as these are the only hardware that lines up along the bellhousing. I am facing the same task soon. I am going to use a piece of plexiglass. I will cut a hole for the ea shaft to slide through, line the bottom edge up and spot and cleco the bottom two holes that are shared with the ej. I'm going to pick up the ea holes, cleco it tightly to the bellhousing and trace it. Label the face side 'EA'. Now when I remove it I have a cartoon of the ea shape and two holes to line it up to the ej with. I'll repeat the same process, pick up the ej holes and trace the ej flange. I'll label that side 'EJ'. I can now make the exact adapter shape from the plexi and lay it on the metal to transfer it. I am considering ".500 5052 aluminum over steel as the aluminum will be easier for me to cut and shape with the tools I have* (though the metal cost is higher) *whimpy band saw, drill press, 90 degree die grinder with cross cut files, hand files, 2,3 and 4" sanding discs etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 The trouble is the dowel pins. These are important for locating the centerline of the engine and trans. I suppose it depends on how you intend to use the car. If it's just an offroad beater that won't see much highway use then it probably doesn't matter all that much, evidenced by the several people around the world (and on this board) that have ignored the dowels for their rigs and not had a problem. I'm putting an EA box in a Forester that I plan on using as a DD with a long commute so don't want to replace input and pilot bearings every few thousand miles. Could be that people have ignored the dowels and put lots of miles on them and not had a problem, I just don't know. Since I had the tools and capability, I factored the dowels in though I'm pretty curious what people's experience has been. Think I'll start a post about it. Will- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I sell a 1/2 " steel adapter ready to install, is the price to High? what would be a reasonable price to get you to buy a ready made one instead of tackling it on your own? Scott with SJR lift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txakura Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 The trouble is the dowel pins. Will- Not necessarily, if they are like any other dowel pin they can be punched out from the back with a drift, the large hole located in the template and the dowel pin itself partially tapped in through the plexi hole to further stabilize the template while it's being made. Barring that, a mallet strike on the template will leave enough of an imprint to center the dowel hole and it can be oversized and centered in the template until it's perfectly aligned on the dowel... or a back transfer strap, or 'hole finders'... so on, this isn't necessarily that difficult, it's flat pattern lay out and hole transferring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txakura Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I sell a 1/2 " steel adapter ready to install, is the price to High? what would be a reasonable price to get you to buy a ready made one instead of tackling it on your own? Scott with SJR lift Your parts are gorgeous, I bought a 4" ea82 kit from you. Your adapter is gorgeous too. The adapter price did turn me off, the flywheel adapter combo made me pause and cost out doing my own. In the Suub chat, I drew some flack and the crappy comment that (my) 'time must not be worth much', and it was expressed that the prices were the 'going rate' for quality cnc machined parts. I do not disagree, limited run manufacturing is spendy... I cannot think of a number, anything I would suggest would most likely be UNINTENTIONALLY insulting and I do not want to insult anyone's hard work and high quality products with some armchair quarterbacking. On the other hand, I do not wish to pre-load my input shaft and suffer premature bearing failure either. I'll know more when I pull my ea82 and lay the possible template out and get a more precise measurement for the aluminum stock and material price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) Not necessarily, if they are like any other dowel pin they can be punched out from the back with a drift, the large hole located in the template and the dowel pin itself partially tapped in through the plexi hole to further stabilize the template while it's being made. Sorry, should've been more clear. What I meant is that there isn't an easy way (that immediately came to mind) to merge the EA and EJ dowel pins relative to the center of the input shaft or crank. All of the template making schemes mentioned may work great for each side, but how do you get the two to agree with each other while maintaining the accuracy? The adapter price did turn me off, the flywheel adapter combo made me pause and cost out doing my own. In the Suub chat, I drew some flack and the crappy comment that (my) 'time must not be worth much', and it was expressed that the prices were the 'going rate' for quality cnc machined parts. I do not disagree, limited run manufacturing is spendy... I cannot think of a number, anything I would suggest would most likely be UNINTENTIONALLY insulting and I do not want to insult anyone's hard work and high quality products with some armchair quarterbacking. That's the age-old problem with this kind of product for the budget-minded consumer and provider. Machine rates are high whether it be one piece by a manual machine or 1000 pieces by CNC. So speaking as a machinist, I'd say SJR's rates are pretty fair given what materials costs and the labor that is involved for short run laser cut part made in the USA. What you're paying for is the knowledge that the part is made correctly, something that you may not be able to accomplish on your own. What it comes down to is the question of whether you have more motivation and time than money? The swap can happen with average shop tools, but it will take time, patience, and perhaps a redo or two. I understand the balk at the "your time must not be worth much" comment. I get that all time. People look at me like I'm insane for "wasting" my time adapting an automatic 2000 Forester with 200k miles to a 5spd D/R from an RX. If I were paying a shop to do the work involved the cost would be astronomical. But it's not a fair comparison. Would you accuse an amateur musician of wasting her time practicing for hours on end to play a piece that she could've paid a few bucks to hear on a CD? On the other hand, I do not wish to pre-load my input shaft and suffer premature bearing failure either. I'll know more when I pull my ea82 and lay the possible template out and get a more precise measurement for the aluminum stock and material price. I also see in that pic of SJR's plate that he's got the dowel pin locations for both EA and EJ locations, perhaps they just need to be reamed to size and you'd be ready to go? Edited February 25, 2010 by lostinthe202 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingbobdole Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I sell a 1/2 " steel adapter ready to install, is the price to High? what would be a reasonable price to get you to buy a ready made one instead of tackling it on your own? Scott with SJR lift I think your price on the adapter plate is very reasonable, as such I'll be buying one this spring from you for my swap. The flywheels issue though is a bit more... Maybe it's because I have so many spare flywheels laying around, but $225 for a redrilled wheel, or an extra $140 to have it done if you get the adapter plate seems a bit high... Maybe it's just me though, everyone's time is worth a different amount to them. On a different note, I cannot wait to see your new bumpers... I liked the last rear one you had on your site and hopefully the new ones will be just as cool.... and available by spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txakura Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 how do you get the two to agree with each other while maintaining the accuracy? one piece of transparent plastic has the holes from both sides, the common holes are the bottom two and possibly a snug fit at the ea input shaft and a same diameter locator in the ej crank, (such as a clutch tool) tracing the flange and the bell housing on opposite sides allows a see through view of the over lap and a view of the relationship between every hole and dowel I have power clecos, but bolts coulld be used to secure the template snugly to prevent movement while each hole is located. the age-old problem with this kind of product for the budget-minded consumer and provider. ~ I'd say SJR's rates are pretty fair given what materials costs and the labor that is involved for short run laser cut part made in the USA. What you're paying for is the knowledge that the part is made correctly I agree 100%. Buying something from SJR, you know it's going to fit, and that its going to fit well. it comes down to is the question of whether you have more motivation and time than money? Bingo. I understand the balk at the "your time must not be worth much" comment. I get that all time. People look at me like I'm insane for "wasting" my time adapting an automatic 2000 Forester with 200k miles to a 5spd D/R from an RX. If I were paying a shop to do the work involved the cost would be astronomical. If you could even find someone who would take it on! 'Built not bought' never rang so true. (Nice combination, btw.) it's not a fair comparison. Would you accuse an amateur musician of wasting her time practicing for hours on end to play a piece that she could've paid a few bucks to hear on a CD? That is poetic, absolutely poetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 one piece of transparent plastic has the holes from both sides, the common holes are the bottom two and possibly a snug fit at the ea input shaft and a same diameter locator in the ej crank, (such as a clutch tool) tracing the flange and the bell housing on opposite sides allows a see through view of the over lap and a view of the relationship between every hole and dowel. I could see that working. I've no idea what the tolerance is for the input shaft bearings. I made an adapter plate for a guy who was putting a Ford Mustang trans behind a Volvo engine and said the he couldn't have more then .005" runout or else the bearings would eat themselves fairly quickly. Again, that was for a track racing application so much higher rpm's and loads involved. But as you pointed out earlier, this is all armchair-engineering since we don't know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 The dowel pins serve a singlular pupose - to take the weight of the engine when installing it in the car. If you assemble the engine to the transmission without the pins then the weight of the engine rests on the input shaft bearings and the pilot bearing. With the 5 speed D/R this is *less* of a concern than it would be with the EJ 5 speed because it actually has a front input shaft bearing where the EJ's do not. I would guess that this fact alone is why we haven't seen adaptor plates without the dowel pins causing bearing failures. That and there may already be so much play in the worn 5 speed's people are using that the lower studs take the weight and it doesn't really load the transmission bearings all that much - the pilot is less of a concern as it doesn't even turn when the car is in gear and moving. As for cost - that depends. I bought my adaptor as I didn't have the tools at the time to make my own. I chose one that does have the dowel pin locations and is proven on a DD application. It happens that the cost was $100 which I find more than fair. Unfortunately he doesn't actively sell them online and he's not a big fan of shipping things down from Canada so it's not so easy to aquire one for most people. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Okay guys, my carbed EJ22 project is gaining steam, and I need an adapter plate. I'm too far away to buy one from the states, so decided I'm going to make my own. But I've got a few questions. 1. Does anyone have a step-by-step guide for making one? (Sounds stupid I know, but I want to make it once and make it right) 2. All the time I see adapter plates on here with a big gaping hole in the bottom - Is this normal? Or is there a lip on the gearbox that this gap is designed for? Surely it can't be good to have a possiblity of a stone or even water flying into your clutch 3. Does anyone have any good recommendations for what kind of steel to use? 4. Do I need to use the dowel pins from the EJ engine, and if so, are there already dowel holes that match in the EA bellhousing? Sorry about some of these questions - I wish I could just walk outside and have a look at my wagon but I'm about 1000km away from it Any help would be greatly appreciated. Just one thing I wanted to point out, there are no stupid questions just stupid people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txakura Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 GD a hundred sounds pretty good. The $195 and $210 I have been quoted seems 'a bit too high' for the material cost. Agree with Nipper, this wasn't a stupid question, and I hope it didn't wander too far off topic for some folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 GD a hundred sounds pretty good. The $195 and $210 I have been quoted seems 'a bit too high' for the material cost. Contact rguyver - he makes them and usually brings half a dozen to the west coast subaru show. His are proven on his daily driver - a WRX swapped Brat. CNC laser cut, pre-threaded, with alignment holes properly reamed. A beautiful peice IMO. His employer (where he runs these same CNC machines daily IIRC) allows him to use the equipment and since he already has the CAD file for the plates it's a simple matter of loading the stock, pushing the button, and walking away. Thus his excelent price. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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