2000 Legacy stalls when clutch is depressed

[OB99W]

Just electrically disconnect the sensor. The connection isn't hard to get to. It's just a bit behind the E/B connectors (about in line with the axle), fairly out in the open. You should be able to see the leads going back to the sensor. Look at the 2000+ info, Engine/Fuel Injection(fuel systems)/front oxygen AF sensor.pdf . It's the first page of that PDF file, page FU(H4)-63 of the manual.

 

Since the cause of the problem is still uncertain, if you disconnect the sensor, don't go very far initially. You'll want to be able to reconnect it if drivability gets worse when it's not plugged in. I'd suggest an "around the block" trip until you verify that the stalling doesn't worsen. Since the ECU will go to default settings, it's probably a good idea to only travel enough to determine if things are better or worse with the sensor unplugged, and then reconnect it.

[Ricearu]

know anyone with the same gen lego? borrow their MAF sensor. I remember my 93 lego doing exactly this, and I replaced the maf sensor and boom gone. I remember, If I started it and bolted off, the next time I stopped, it would die and continue dying or barely running at idle at every stop, that is until I would turn the key off, start the car and let the idle come down from its 2500 rpm happy place to a dead idle (WITHOUT TOUCHING THE THROTTLE) and it would run like a baby. till I shut it off and did it all over again.

 

edit: also, it misfired alot too, I am guessing due to lean condition

Edited September 29, 2010 by Ricearu

[OB99W]

know anyone with the same gen lego? borrow their MAF sensor. [...]

Yes, a bad MAF could cause stalling, etc. The only thing making it unlikely in this case is that the 2000 doesn't have a MAF (at least in theory, see next paragraph :-\), it's MAP.

 

Not to confuse things, but I noticed that some of the OBD-II live data indicated "0" for the MAF, but there were also some non-zero values. I've attributed this to ECU weirdness, but maybe 2000 Legacy has a strange hybrid engine. He could easily spot a MAF -- if there's one, it would be between the air intake and the air box behind the throttle body. If there's just tubing, there's no MAF. I'm expecting lack of a MAF.

[Fairtax4me]

Being biased up like that, one might think there could be leakage from the sensor's heater, or that the ECU had a problem. However, it's been shown a replacement ECU (admittedly, a used one) didn't change the voltage, and that with a new sensor, things worked okay even though the voltage remained high. See http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=66744 (and then maybe you can explain it to me ).

Ahhhh... you know what... seems I've read about this before. Something weird about using a scan tool. Some of them seem to read high by a several volts, even though the decimal reading is correct, the whole number (before the decimal) is significantly higher than what an O2 sensor is capable of producing. I bet if it was tested at the sensor, or with a Subaru select monitor, it would be within spec.

[2000 Legacy]

Hi everyone,

 

I really appreciate everyones effort on this. I'm sorry that I didn't or haven't looked into the MAF. After rereading the discussion I could have easily checked this tonight.

 

Anyways, when I got home from work this afternoon I tried the experiment in disconnecting or unplugging the A/F (O2) sensor at the connection and drove the car around the block, 1 mile. It stalled everytime whenever I came to a stop or pushed the clutch in. The car hadn't been driven since Monday night prior to this afternoon. With this being said do you still think my problem is the A/F (O2) sensor? I know it probally should be changed becuase I don't think it ever has been. I just hate to keep putting money into the car if I can't fix it. I know no one can guarantee anything and I don't hold anyone responsible if I did replace it and it doesn't work. Like I said earlier I am just so thankfull for everyones help.

 

Also I was talking to a guy I work with this morning who used to work at a Subie dealership. He asked about the Neutral Safety Switch, I told him that we tried/checked that. He suggested I recheck it and to this time move the shifter around while in each gear. So I did this earlier at the ECM, B135 Connector, Pin 26 I backprobed and got the following;

 

- Neutral = 11.28 volts.

- 1st, 2nd and 4th gear it remained consistantly 0.01 volts.

- in 3rd gear it was 0.01 volts without moving the shifter however in moving it around within gear it changed anywhere from 0.01 to 1.00 volts.

- in 5th gear it was 0.01 volts without moving the shifter up to as high as 1.9 volts.

 

Any thoughts or do these results mean anything? I thought I had read in the FSM that neutral should be 12.0 +/- .5 volts and that while in gear it should be 0 volts.

 

Someone else had asked me if while driving and pushing in the clutch and pushing the accelerator if the RPM's would go up and keep the car from stalling. I don't think I ever tried it so tonight on the way home I tried it. Whenever the car was going to shutdown if I stepped on the acelerator I would get nothing, it was like the car was completely dead. Then when I took my foot off the clutch it came back to life or pop started itself. The times I pushed the clutch in and the car wasn't going to shutdown and if I stepped on the accelerator the RPM's went up. I don't know if this means anything, I thought I'd just throw it out there.

 

Well thats it for now. Thanks for everything.

 

2000 Legacy

[OB99W]

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, are you saying that disconnecting the A/F sensor resulted in no change in the way the engine ran?

 

Based on the new readings, the neutral switch (it's not a "safety") isn't making reliable contact. Whether it's sufficiently bad to be causing the problems you're experiencing is uncertain. I'd replace it, since it's likely to only get worse with further use.

 

The engine not responding to throttle when the clutch is disengaged is definitely interesting. I wonder what would happen if the clutch wasn't disengaged when coming to a stop. (Yes, I know the engine would stall if you did that when still in gear. ) However, what if at the point you'd normally declutch and apply the brake, you instead left the clutch engaged but shifted into neutral and braked? I realize that's not the "normal" way to drive a stick, but if you can do it a few times and see if the engine behaves differently, it might be revealing.

 

 

By the way, if you have the time, the following is also "interesting":

 

http://www.arfc.org/complaints/2010/subaru/outback/?q=&page=1

Search for the word "clutch" on this page and the following ones.

You will find an amazing number of complaints sounding just like yours, but

about *2010* Subarus.

 

http://www.arfc.org/complaints/2000/subaru/outback/?q=&page=1

A similar search on the 2000 reveals *zero* such complaints.

 

http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2143255.page

The "fix" for the 2010 model is to reflash the ECU.

[OB99W]

In the spirit of not spending money, how about some more diagnosis with tools you already have?

 

We didn't address the questionable MAP readings. I wrote up a procedure that should give us some insight.

 

Please make notes of readings as follows:

1) Begin with engine cold

2) Connect vacuum gauge to intake, using "T"

3) Connect 3130, route cable so scanner can be read alongside vacuum gauge

4) With key on, engine off, read live data "MAP"

5) Start engine, idle, get "MAP", "Spark Adv", and vacuum gauge readings

6) As engine warms, in one minute intervals, repeat those three readings

7) Once engine is warm, take those three readings again, but at idle, 1500 rpm, and 2500 rpm (nine readings for this step)

 

Let us know what you get.

[2000 Legacy]

Hi OB99W and everyone else,

 

To answer your question in Post # 131, Correct, unplugging the electrical connection for the A/F (O2) sensor did not correct the stalling. If anything the car may have even run a little rougher, though it was hard to tell since I only went around the block, 1 mile total (.3 mile - stop sign, .1 mile - stop sign, then .4 mile turn and .3 mile to the driveway).

 

I agree with changing the Neutral Switch, I don't think that it's too expensive. I'll look around and maybe do at next weeks auto class where hopefully I'll have access to a lift.

 

Thanks for the links to the 2010 Subaru similar problems. I wonder if this is why SOA wanted me to go back to a Subie dealer. I never seemed to notice if the AC on or off made a difference. I also find it hard to believe that I'm the only MT 2000 Legacy with this problem. As for the ECU being reflashed, I wonder how expensive that is.

 

One thing I forgot to mention last night was that I picked up another code, I think it was a PO1133 or P1133. I can't remember, I'll have to recheck. I think it was a Subaru unique and that it was maybe caused by diconnecting the A/F (O2) sensor.

 

As for Post # 132, I'm definately in the spirit of not spending money. I'll try to get these readings tonight if the weather permits, we're supposed to get a lot of rain within the next 24 hours. If not tonight I'll shoot for the weekend again but will post as soon as possible.

 

Thanks for everything.

2000 Legacy

[OB99W]

As you know, if the system is running OL, it's supposed to ignore the A/F sensor. Since nothing much changed with it unplugged (and certainly not to default values that improved things), it would seem that the basic problem isn't being affected by the sensor. This doesn't mean that it's behaving like a new one, but since we have other things to investigate, let's (again ) put off replacing it for now.

 

Sounds good to me on changing the neutral (position) switch.

 

Those links do show that certain prevalent problems can be caused and/or addressed by ECU programming. However, I don't think a reflash should be considered now, specifically because the problem doesn't seem to be common on the 2000 (and you already had a "newer" ECU installed once).

 

Yes, disconnecting the A/F sensor would cause the P1133 code to be set.

 

I'm sympathetic to your situation, and trying to be conservative. We'll see what results you get with some further testing. I'm hopeful that eventually something obvious will jump out. As usual, you're welcome.

[2000 Legacy]

Hi again,

 

I rechecked the Check Engine codes; P0304, P0302, P0303, P0301, P0113 and like you said earlier P1133. I haven't cleared them or the Live Data that I first documented when I got the Innova 3130. Do you think I should?

 

The results from Post # 132:

- Step 4: "MAP" reading was 29.2 with the key on, engine off.

- Step 5 & 6: I started the car at 5:14 PM and took the following readings in 1 minute intervals for 10 minutes and got the following results:

- at start/idle: "MAP" was 15.6, "Spark Adv" was 12 then changed to 7 and the "Vacuum Gauge" read 12 and seemed to drop.

- at 1 minute intervals respectively:

 

- "MAP"; 18.8, 19.7, 18.6, 17.7, 16.5, 17.4, 14.7, 13.2, 12.9 & 12.4 lastly (10 min. later).

 

- "Spark Adv"; 9-7, 7-8, 6, 8, 7, 9, 4-11, 8, 4-7 & 6 lastly (10 min. later).

 

- "Vacuum Gauge"; 10-11, 10.5, 11, 11.5, 11.5-12, 12.5, 14.5, 16, 17 and 17 lastly (10 min. later).

 

I finished the above readings at about 5:24 PM. Note the car hadn't been started/driven since last night at 10:00 PM. I meant to check the 3130 right away this afternoon at 5:14 PM to see if it was "OL" or "CL". I checked it about a minute or so after I started the car and the 3130 read "CL".

 

- Step 7: At 5:29 PM the car had been idling for about 15 minutes before I started this step and got the following readings at "Idle", "1500 RPM's" and "2500 RPM's" respectively:

 

- "MAP";11.8, 8.2 and 8.8 at 2500 RPM's.

 

- "Spark Adv"; 10-12, 29 and 34 at 2500 RPM's.

 

- "Vacuum Gauge"; 17.5-18, 22 bouncing all around and 20.5-22.0 at 2500 RPM's the gauge seemed to be pretty steady at the 2500 RPM's. When I connected the vacuum gauge, I used the tee and the port on top of the intake manifold to the right of the throttle body looking into the engine compartment.

 

Hope this information helps us. Thanks.

 

2000 Legacy

[OB99W]

This post is long, but I think it's worth reading. (But I'm biased. )

 

It's not necessary to clear the codes, etc. Until the problem is fixed, the misfire (p030x) codes will keep coming back. We know that the other two were set by disconnecting things, so they can be ignored.

 

Thanks for the readings, they're useful. Let me go into a little operational theory first.

 

The MAP reading with key-on/engine-off is the barometric pressure. The ECU gets that at start-up, and uses MAP values with the engine running relative to that base. If a MAP reading with the engine running is subtracted from the base barometric reading, it should be equal to the intake vacuum, and should agree with the gauge reading (within reason).

 

I created the table below, using the measurements you provided (and my calculator ).

It's in the form {MAP Base} minus {Engine-running MAP} = {Calculated vacuum} versus {Vacuum gauge}.

 

29.2 - 15.6 = 13.6 v 12

29.2 - 18.8 = 10.4 v 10-11

29.2 - 19.7 = 9.5 v 10.5

29.2 - 18.6 = 10.6 v 11

29.2 - 17.7 = 11.5 v 11.5

29.2 - 16.5 = 12.7 v 11.5-12

29.2 - 17.4 = 11.8 v 12.5

29.2 - 14.7 = 14.5 v 14.5

29.2 - 13.2 = 16.0 v 16

29.2 - 12.9 = 16.3 v 17

29.2 - 12.4 = 16.8 v 17

 

Considering the accuracy of a typical vacuum gauge, and the difficulty in reading it precisely, it appears that the MAP sensor is working well -- the calculated intake vacuum is in reasonable agreement with the gauge.

 

So, it looks like the low vacuum readings at cold start are real, and the MAP is just reflecting that situation.

 

The rich mixture may be a result of the low intake vacuum. Engine systems see low vacuum as an indicator of higher load, and respond by providing more fuel -- the FPR receives lowered vacuum and ups the pressure to the injectors. The fuel trim values in the -12 neighborhood indicate that the ECU is trying to correct what it sees as an overly rich mixture. However, it has no control of the fuel pressure, just the injector pulse width (duration), which is what the fuel trims are for.

 

The ignition timing ("Spark Adv") readings ran from 12 to as low as 4 degrees of advance. More typical would be 10 to 15 degrees with low engine load, especially at idle. The retardation from the usual amount of advance will have an impact. It may be that the knock sensor is "hearing" things related to the problem.

 

Let's look at the possible causes of low intake vacuum. We've ruled out leaks, because you couldn't find any, and because when you disconnected the brake booster vacuum line the engine ran better, rather than worse or stalling. Poor general engine condition, such as badly sealing rings or leaky valves, can be a problem, but the high compression readings you previously got indicate otherwise. That leaves mostly "breathing" problems. Tight (insufficiently opening) valves can cause poor breathing, as can excessive carbon buildup on the back side of intake valves. (This is likely why the dealer wanted to pull the heads.) Restricted exhaust can also contribute to low vacuum, but the fact that running the engine at 2000 and 2500 rpm didn't lead to lowered vacuum, but rather an increase, tends to rule that out.

 

However, there's another possible cause -- valve timing being wrong. That can be due to a jumped timing belt, as I mentioned many posts ago. I know that you and DaveT looked into it, but not completely, as per post #50. Apparently the cam alignment (relative to each other) was checked, but not at the crank. Unfortunately, due to the fewer teeth being engaged at the crank sprocket (and other factors) versus at the cams, if a jump occurs it's much more likely at the crank. I previously said "Timing belts wear, and 85,000 miles is getting near the end of life for one. Also, the tensioner and idler pulleys, especially if they weren't replaced the last time the belt was, can develop some play.". In addition, during t-belt replacement some people "forget" to reinstall the timing belt guide found on manual trans engines (it's not used on auto trans ones), which if in place minimizes the chance of jumping at the crank sprocket.

 

I would suggest fully checking the timing belt alignment. (Hey, it's another "no-cost" diagnostic procedure. ) When you and DaveT last did this, you ran out of time to get to the crank mark. I assume that means the left (driver's) side cover was pulled and the other loosened enough to check the cams, but you thought that it would be necessary to remove the lower cover (and therefore accessory belts, crank pulley) to see the crank sprocket. Well, there's another way to check belt alignment that doesn't require all that additional work, but not many are aware of it. It's "quick and dirty", and mostly good for checking "ballpark" t-belt alignment, but that's probably all you need to do for now.

 

There are two sets of alignment marks on the cam and crank sprockets. The ones that are used for belt replacement are the "lines". Using them makes the job easier because it orients things so that the sprockets don't tend to "spring" out of place during the job. The other set of marks, the "arrows", are there as indicators of cylinder #1 TDC. We usually tell people to ignore the arrows, as they confuse t-belt replacement. However, they can be put to good use in this diagnosis.

 

(The following is dependent on the crank pulley not being in terrible shape. You'll need to be able to spot the timing notch at the rearmost of the crank pulley rim. To help visualize where this is, imagine that it would have to be near the timing scale on the engine in order to check ignition timing with a timing light.)

 

1) Remove the left belt cover.

2) Remove screws as needed to loosen the other cover so that the right (passenger) side cam sprocket can be seen.

3) Using a wrench on the crank pulley bolt, turn it clockwise until the arrow alignment marks on the cam sprockets are pointing straight up (12 o'clock position), facing the notches in the rear belt cover.

4) Determine where the timing notch in the crank pulley is pointing.

 

If all is well, the crank pulley notch will be pretty close to pointing at the "0" (zero) degree line on the timing scale. If the belt has jumped a notch at the crank, the pulley will point about 15 degrees from the "0".

 

Note that the above doesn't allow full inspection of the timing belt components. With a manual trans engine, if the t-belt guide is in place, even a loose belt will sometimes stay in place. The looseness can cause timing errors, and noises can be generated that the knock sensor sometimes picks up, causing spark retardation. Since you and DaveT had covers off/loose, I assume you might have noticed if the belt was loose. I'm primarily mentioning this so that anyone reading won't incorrectly assume that not completely pulling the covers still allows for sufficient inspection. Being able to check the idlers and tensioner is important.

 

Soapbox: Checking the t-belt won't necessarily result in finding a problem. Remember, every test result is valuable, if not as verification of a fault, then as a rule-out. Since we're trying to keep expenses down, rather than throwing parts at the problem, I'm concentrating on diagnostics. Dealer and independent shops sometimes don't spend lots of time on diagnosis (often justifiably, because labor costs can outweigh the expense of trying parts). If the labor is yours, depending on how you value your time versus your money, time-consuming diagnosis can be the way to go.

 

Whew! If you think it took a long time to read the above, just imagine how long it took to write.

[2000 Legacy]

Thank you so much for your time OB99W, I can't even imagine how long it took you to do this. It was definately worth reading. I am truely amazed at your knowledge and how well you explain things and how you are able to make these diagnosis. I will have to read it a few more times and get a better understanding of the timing belt and it's parts. Maybe Sunday I'll be able to investigate. Thanks again.

 

2000 Legacy

[Fairtax4me]

This post is long, but I think it's worth reading. (But I'm biased. )

 

It's not necessary to clear the codes, etc. Until the problem is fixed, the misfire (p030x) codes will .....

blah blah blah....

 

Whew! If you think it took a long time to read the above, just imagine how long it took to write.

 

Well, where's the rest of this book?

 

the "arrows", are there as indicators of cylinder #1 TDC

Never knew that. Good thing to remember if you lose the position of the cams and or crank during a belt change.

[OB99W]

Thank you so much for your time OB99W, I can't even imagine how long it took you to do this. It was definately worth reading. I am truely amazed at your knowledge and how well you explain things and how you are able to make these diagnosis. I will have to read it a few more times and get a better understanding of the timing belt and it's parts. Maybe Sunday I'll be able to investigate. Thanks again.

 

2000 Legacy

You're welcome. I enjoy the challenge, especially if the problem is a little unusual. If it wasn't enjoyable, I wouldn't participate in the forum. (Although there are times when it gets frustrating enough so that I'd like to reach through the computer and put my own hands on the car.)

 

There are numerous other forum members who are quite knowledgeable and freely offer advice, so please don't single me out. Some of those members are certainly more experienced than I am in certain areas (it's hard to be expert at everything), but they might not have as much free time available to post as I do.

 

Even though I reread things before posting, some errors still slip through. In my previous post I wrote "If the belt has jumped a notch at the crank, ...". I meant to say "tooth" where I wrote "notch".

Edited October 2, 2010 by OB99W
Proving once more that my fingers don't always follow my brain

[OB99W]

Well, where's the rest of this book?

How do you know I'm not in the process of gathering material for one?

 

 

Never knew that. Good thing to remember if you lose the position of the cams and or crank during a belt change.

Yes, but it's better to not use the arrows during a belt change, since besides the difficulty of holding things in place, there's more chance of interference at TDC. That's why the "lines" are there. The arrows are normally used to obtain correct positioning for valve clearance adjustment on solid adjuster (non-HLA) engines. You set the arrows at 12 o'clock for cyl #1, then rotate at 90 degree intervals, checking/adjusting the valves in firing order.

[2000 Legacy]

Hi everyone,

 

I just spent over an hour writing up my response and got booted out so I hope that I don't end up posting it twice like I've done in the past.

 

First I'd like to say thanks to everyone who has tried to help me in solving my problem. I'd like to say thanks to those who created and manage this forum, it is awesome and you all do a great job. Your time, advice and expertise is really appreciated.

 

I've spent the afternoon reaserching and diagnoising my timing belt. The timing belt was replaced at 117,000 miles at a Subaru dealership and it looks as though they replaced the tensioner at that time, it cost $140.00 for it. I don't see any documentation saying that the Idler Pulley's were replaced. As for the timing belt guide being reinstalled, I'd have to say that they did so. I tried to chek earlier to see if it was in place but could'nt tell.

 

I removed the left (drivers) side cover and as many fasteners as possible on the right (passengers) side. This is exactly how we did the camsprocket alignment in Post #50. At first I could'nt find the "Arrows" then I noticed them on the inner/inside of the camshaft sprockets. I then noticed on the right side cover there was a rubber cover on the t-belt cover, I removed it and with a mirror and flashlight I was able to see the "Arrow" once I figured out how to turn the crankshaft sprocket. That took a while too because I had the car in gear, once I put it in neutral I was able to turn it. One thing I did notice that was when the "Lines" were lined up with the knotch on the t-belt cover left side and the seam on the cylinder head on the right side that the "Arrows" were at about 2:00 o'clock. Once I got the "Arrows" to 12:00 o'clock I think I found the knotch on the "crankshaft pulley" to be about 2-3 degrees to the left (looking at it) on the timing scale. Now I know what was meant by the "crank pulley not being in terrible shape", it was hard to see/find that knotch.

 

As for the belt being loose, it doesn't appear to be. I'm able to push it down about a 1/4 inch on the left (drivers) side at the edge of the right cover. I can squeeze the belt about a 1/4 inch on each side of the left camshaft sprocket. Another thing I noticed was that the camshaft sprocket on the right side didn't have a lip on the back side of it to keep the belt in line or on track wghereas the left one did. I also notice that the belt appeared to be torwards the back or flush with the camshaft sprocket. I was able to carefully slide it forward with a flat blade (regular) screwdriver. I hope that the belt is within spec and is acceptable.

 

Tomorrow I will look into getting the Neutral Switch. I noticed that Subarupartsforyou.com call it a "Neutral Safety Switch" and that it is Part No. 32008AA074 and it's about $29.00. I assume that they are one in the same and that it will come with a new washer and electrical connector/wire. Also while researching the "2000+Legacy FSM" I couldn't find the section on Manual Transmissions. I thought it would be in the "Transmission and Transaxle Section". Could someone please tell where I can find it?

 

Again, thank you to everyone in sticking with me on this. I look forward to your comments, suggestions and recommendations.

 

2000 Legacy

[Fairtax4me]

Also while researching the "2000+Legacy FSM" I couldn't find the section on Manual Transmissions. I thought it would be in the "Transmission and Transaxle Section". Could someone please tell where I can find it?

I noticed that too. There was some site I found that might have that section, but it's in Russian. Kinda hard to read unless you have use a translator. (actually I think google did it pretty well)

 

You could just use the 99 model FSM for reference. http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/subaru_manual_scans/

I got that page bookmarked. (it's in english)

[2000 Legacy]

Thanks Fairtax4me for the link to Manual Transmissions on the FSM. I'll check it tonight when I get home.

 

2000 Legacy

[johnceggleston]

you guys are amazing to keep at this, frustration would have killed me by now if it were my car.

 

what if you jump out the clutch pedal "safety" switch so the car does not know the clutch pedal has been depressed. i did this on my 90 nissan pickup when i had a no-start problem.

 

this will not cure the cause, but if it eliminates the problem it maybe worth it.

cars were made for a lot of years where the only safety switch was in the drivers brain. and of course safety switches were added because they prevent injuries. so if you try this you have to be much more careful. i do this in my pickup by ALWAYS putting on the hand brake when turning the car off.

 

apologies if this has been tried, i've been following this thread, but do not remember all the work done.

 

good luck finding a fix.

Edited October 4, 2010 by johnceggleston

[OB99W]

First I'd like to say thanks to everyone who has tried to help me in solving my problem. I'd like to say thanks to those who created and manage this forum, it is awesome and you all do a great job. Your time, advice and expertise is really appreciated.

Thanks, 2000 Legacy, for recognizing the many people who make USMB what it is.

 

 

[...]The timing belt was replaced at 117,000 miles at a Subaru dealership and it looks as though they replaced the tensioner at that time,[...]

Okay, the belt doesn't have as much mileage on it as I had presumed (based on previous info). That's good.

 

 

[...]I was able to see the "Arrow" once I figured out how to turn the crankshaft sprocket. That took a while too because I had the car in gear, once I put it in neutral I was able to turn it.

Yes, manually turning the engine while in gear could be "difficult". I guess I could have mentioned it being a bit easier when in neutral.

 

 

One thing I did notice that was when the "Lines" were lined up with the knotch on the t-belt cover left side and the seam on the cylinder head on the right side that the "Arrows" were at about 2:00 o'clock.

Not to nitpick (but so that anyone who isn't aware of this has a better understanding) -- under the conditions described, the "arrows" would be positioned at 1:30 o'clock. That's because there's 45 degrees between them and the "lines" on the cam sprockets. By the way, at the crank sprocket the relationship between arrows and lines is 90 degrees.

 

 

Once I got the "Arrows" to 12:00 o'clock I think I found the knotch on the "crankshaft pulley" to be about 2-3 degrees to the left (looking at it) on the timing scale. Now I know what was meant by the "crank pulley not being in terrible shape", it was hard to see/find that knotch.

Unfortunately, the notch isn't very deep, and rust takes its toll. Based on your having determined only a couple of degrees discrepancy between the cam and crank positions, it's fine. (The test isn't precise, it's "ballpark".) If it had existed, a single tooth jump at the crank would have shown up as about 15 degrees off.

 

 

Tomorrow I will look into getting the Neutral Switch. I noticed that Subarupartsforyou.com call it a "Neutral Safety Switch" and that it is Part No. 32008AA074 and it's about $29.00. I assume that they are one in the same [...]

The full correct part name is actually "neutral position switch". On some vehicles, that sort of part is used as a starter lockout, but on your Subaru with manual trans the "safety" lockout is a clutch-operated switch. (Auto trans cars have an "inhibitor switch" which allows starting only in Neutral or Park.) Some folks refer to all such trans-related switches as "safety", even though it's not alway accurate.

 

 

Also while researching the "2000+Legacy FSM" I couldn't find the section on Manual Transmissions. I thought it would be in the "Transmission and Transaxle Section". Could someone please tell where I can find it?

For 2003 Legacy, should apply (hosting site Russian, info in English ):

http://www.subaru-car.ru/leg3/leg3_trans_4-1.pdf

http://www.subaru-car.ru/leg3/leg3_trans_4-2.pdf

http://www.subaru-car.ru/leg3/leg3_trans_5.pdf

 

 

Again, thank you to everyone in sticking with me on this. I look forward to your comments, suggestions and recommendations.

 

2000 Legacy

Personally, I'm willing to stick with anyone who's as dedicated as you've been. I do have further thoughts on your problem, but I'll post them separately.

[OB99W]

Sorry, I finally had an opportunity to mull things over and get back to this.

 

The biggest difficulty in pinning down the cause of the stalling is that of the old "which came first, the chicken or the egg?". The ECU is programmed to deal with changing conditions, as it determines from sensor data, and "corrects" things. Nothing in the OBD-II data stands out as obviously wrong, and we've been able to verify that data from several of the sensors is apparently correct. The parts that were already replaced and inspections that were done have ruled out other things.

 

Although we've been trying to avoid "throwing" parts at the problem, I'm inclined to give replacing the front A/F sensor consideration again. But first I'd run one more diagnostic test, if it's practical for you and can be done safely (it might be best to have a passenger along to help with this). Connect the 3130 scan tool, put it in Live Data mode, and take a short drive with the engine cold. As soon as the engine stalls or bogs, make note if the system is "CL". If this test can be run with the engine cold over a few days, and the system is consistently "CL" when the stalling/bogging occurs, then the A/F sensor becomes a better candidate.

 

The 3130 has a very handy function related to the Live Data Mode. It can record 20 frames of live data. One way of telling it when to do that is described in the manual in the RECORDING (CAPTURING) LIVE DATA section "Record by Manual Trigger". If you have the patience to read that part and can practice how to use it a few times before hitting the road, the test I mentioned in the previous paragraph can be easier to do and even more revealing, and you might not need a passenger/helper.

 

If/when you run the test, let us know the result. Only the system state ("OL" or "CL") is needed for this, unless you see something else that seems worth noting.

 

IMPORTANT EDIT: I almost forgot this -- given the erratic ignition timing (Spark Adv) readings, the knock sensor might be failing. They can be troublesome long before being bad enough to trigger a code. Cracking can lead to generating a signal when engine noise isn't high enough to nomally cause retardation. Sufficient retardation can cause inefficiency leading to low intake vacuum, leading to the FPR increasing the fuel pressure, leading to the ECU trying to control that via fuel trim, ... (chicken or egg? )

 

It would be prudent at a minimum to visually inspect the knock sensor, or consider replacing it even in the absence of a code, perhaps even before further investigating the A/F sensor.

Edited October 7, 2010 by OB99W

[2000 Legacy]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks for taking the opportunity to mull this over and respond.

 

I will read the manual for the 3130, Recording (Capturing) Live Data section "Record by Manual Trigger" and take the car out for short rides when cold over the next few days and record whether the system is "CL" or "OL".

 

I'll also will visually imspect the "Knock Sensor". I did replace it with a NAPA one at about 148,000 miles.

 

I also replaced the "Neutral Switch" the other night. I was like a little kid at Christmas and couldn't wait to install it hoping that it would fix the problem, no such luck.

 

Also, I forgot to respond to Post #131 where the question was asked if "you instead left the clutch engaged but shifted into neutral and braked?" Sometimes this works, but only when you put it into neutral and take the foot off the clutch. If I were to leave my foot on the clutch and keep it in neutral it will sometimes stall.

 

The journey continues, thanks again.

 

2000 Legacy

[OB99W]

[...]I'll also will visually imspect the "Knock Sensor". I did replace it with a NAPA one at about 148,000 miles.

When you replaced the knock sensor, did you follow the torque spec when tightening the mounting bolt? The spec is for relatively low torque -- exceeding the spec significantly can damage the sensor, but that may not be immediately obvious. Also, the rotational angle the sensor is mounted at can affect operation. If you don't have the info, it's in: http://www.subaru-car.ru/leg3/leg3_sec1_1-1.pdf

 

 

I also replaced the "Neutral Switch" the other night. I was like a little kid at Christmas and couldn't wait to install it hoping that it would fix the problem, no such luck.

I'm sure that was somewhat disappointing. The old switch was apparently acting up, but not to the degree that would likely cause what you're experiencing. However, eventually it would probably have gotten bad enough to create problems, so it was prudent to change it anyway.

 

 

Also, I forgot to respond to Post #131 where the question was asked if "you instead left the clutch engaged but shifted into neutral and braked?" Sometimes this works, but only when you put it into neutral and take the foot off the clutch. If I were to leave my foot on the clutch and keep it in neutral it will sometimes stall.

The mass of the clutch is apparently acting as an additional flywheel, helping the engine get past cylinder misfires, bogging, etc. Sometimes people who install a lightweight crank pulley and clutch/flywheel (with the expectation that reducing rotational mass will improve free-revving) run into stalling problems.

[2000 Legacy]

Hi,

 

When I replaced the "Knock Sensor" I did not torque the bolt/fastener since at the time I didn't have a torque wrench and from what I remember I needed a extention on the ratchet. It was while ago when I did it, I'll check out along with the link you posted especially since I was unaware of orientation. From what I remember I used the Haynes book to do it.

 

Thanks

2000 Legacy

[Fairtax4me]

Sufficient retardation can cause inefficiency

It's like you're describing the US Gov't.

Sorry, that just cracked me up for some reason.

 

Anyway, Knock sensor. You should be able to "see" knock sensor readings with the 3130. I'm not sure if it will show that actual values but, with the engine running, you can tap around the sensor with a ratchet extension and watch the 3130 for changes in ignition timing.