Want to switch from regular to synthetic oil & lubes

[go_mo_bryth]

Hi there,

 

Back again after a long hiatus and with a new (to us) Subaru. Now have a 2005 Outback 2.5i XT Limited with auto and most every option under the sun...including that sunroof to feel that sun. Would like to convert it to run on synthetic motor oil, gear lube, and tranny fluid but unsure of how to go about the conversion. So I'd welcome any advice on how to do it. Car is a U.S. model and has 59,000 miles on it. Thanks and it's nice to be back! Gord

[eppoh]

I have been a user of Amsoil pure synthetic for many years on many vehicles, ( gas and diesel) all of which were switched to Amsoil with more years and mileage than yours- including my 2 Legacies. All of them lasted 1/4 million miles with Amsoil, changing it every 15000 miles and changing filters every 3 to 4000 miles. As far as I know the ones I sold are still running.

 

So, to answer your question, Amsoil has an engine flush they recommend when switching over. I did it on one car, but since then, I just switch to Amsoil and make the first change interval shorter- like 7000 miles with a filter at 4000.

 

Some people will claim that changing to synthetic will cause oil leaks. Not my experience- I think it is a wives tale.

 

BTW, I am not an Amsoil dealer, but I can tell you how to buy it a little cheaper from the same guy I do.

 

Maybe there is an Amsoil dealer on this list too.

[GeneralDisorder]

I have used the Amsoil engine flush and so have a few mechanic friends of mine. It does remove a lot of crap. Definitely a good product. I haven't ever used their oil - tried some of their gear oil for crunchy 5 speed I had and it made it worse :-\. Went to Valvoline Synthetic on reccomendation of other's in the Subaru community and it's considerably better.

 

I recently had the pleasure of openeing up a 1990 EJ22 engine with 255k on it. I don't know when it was switched over to synthetic but for sure since about 175k it's had only Mobile 1 synthetic. The owner is an older gentleman - retired Air Force mechanic. He has, among other things, a couple restored vintage Fords, and an '05 Audi S4 Turbo..... he is pretty anal about his cars and his maintenenace. I pulled the engine for a reseal and a clutch replacement (first clutch since he bought it new in '90 ). The inside of the engine was pristene - no oil varnish at all. It runs like new at 255k.

 

He is not one to care about maintenance costs - the Mobile 1 and filter are changed every 5k.

 

Personally I think it's overkill (though it certainly works!). I run regular oil (Chevron is high quality and cheap by the case at places like Costco - around $1.99 a quart) and 5k intervals on my engines and on the older stuff I run Rislone in place of a quart of oil at every change. It works just fine and I've pulled apart engines that never had a drop of synthetic in their lives that were just as clean because the oil was changed religiously at 3k - last one had 258k on it and looked like the day it was built inside (EA82 - little old lady owned).

 

I've mentioned this before, but it needs to be pointed out that Synthtic oil really buys you NOTHING unless you increase the mileage you are putting on it. Right up to the point that regular oil starts to breakdown (usually between 5k to 7k), synthetic really doesn't help you. Synthetic just lasts a lot longer before it breaks down - though when it does it falls off fast and hard - usually turning to a semi-solid or outright roofing tar. If you don't plan to do an oil analysis program at least bi-annually to re-calibrate your change interval for the oil and filter (they may not coincide), you are just throwing away money. The real savings in running synthetics is realized when you find out how far you can push it - usually somewhere in the 15k mile range but you can't tell for sure till you run OA on it and get a feeling for where the viscocity begins to radically change, when the heavy metal content goes way up, and when the additive package breaks down.

 

GD

[nipper]

Hi there,

 

Back again after a long hiatus and with a new (to us) Subaru. Now have a 2005 Outback 2.5i XT Limited with auto and most every option under the sun...including that sunroof to feel that sun. Would like to convert it to run on synthetic motor oil, gear lube, and tranny fluid but unsure of how to go about the conversion. So I'd welcome any advice on how to do it. Car is a U.S. model and has 59,000 miles on it. Thanks and it's nice to be back! Gord

 

 

It's easy, drain the old oil put in synthetic. I would never ever ever recomend an engine flush product of any kind, period. As it is the Syn may knock some gunk loose (not a bad thing).

 

Same with gear lube.

 

I would personally be hesitant to use syn in a tranny, but others have.

 

nipper

[Fairtax4me]

Some people will claim that changing to synthetic will cause oil leaks. Not my experience- I think it is a wives tale./QUOTE]

 

If you already have oil leaks they can get worse with synthetic. The stuff will run out of bad seals/gaskets like water.

 

I've currently switched to Valvoline Maxlife synthetic blend in my Legacy. Running Castrol on the last change and after about 1500 miles one of the lifters started ticking like there was no tomorrow. Switched to the Maxlife and it disappeared within 30 seconds. Has not ticked in three weeks, but I'm keeping an ear out in case it decides to return.

 

When I switched my Lincoln to synthetic (Amsoil) I just went straight to synthetic, however, I had used Motorcraft synthetic blend for 6000 miles (two changes) before that.

What had been used in it before I bough it I have no idea, but I had the valve covers off to replace the gaskets (common leak area on those) and inside was one of the cleanest engines I have ever seen. Granted it only had 60k miles on it at that point, but I've seen engines in far worse shape with half that mileage and half the age.

 

Gear lube is easy to change to synthetic. I wouldn't even bother with changing the drain interval on the diffs.

 

ATF is gonna be the most difficult and expensive one to change, having to drain and refill several times to drain only about 80% of the old fluid out.

[EvilDead]

I run Red Line synth in my tranny, and Royal Purple in the rear diff on my WRX. LOVE IT! As for the engine, I still run dino. I tried Mobil 1 synth a while back, but noticed she burned it more than dino. I will probably try the Royal Purple synth engine oil sooner than later.

 

The RX runs dino as well, but at 154K I am starting to notice a tick on startups. I will try seafoaming her again soon, then run synth to see how well that works.

[211]

...changing it every 15000 miles and changing filters every 3 to 4000 miles.

 

So you change filters three times for every one oil change? Interesting.

 

Is this good practice for conventional oils too? Obviously changing filters is a good thing no matter how often, but I've always just changed the filter when I change oils and call that good.

[eppoh]

So you change filters three times for every one oil change? Interesting.

 

Is this good practice for conventional oils too? Obviously changing filters is a good thing no matter how often, but I've always just changed the filter when I change oils and call that good.

 

 

I don't know. Back when I changed from dino oil about 16 years ago, I did not trust it for more than 3 to 4000 miles, so I did change the oil and filter every time. After I changed to Amsoil, did a few oil samples over the years and became convinced of it's durability, I never looked back and was happy not to crawl under the car to drain it every other month.

[Rooster2]

I once had a conversation with a guy who used dino oil, and never ever changed his oil. He said, that all he would do is change the filter every 3-4K miles, and add oil when low. I thought, and still think, the guy was nuts to leave all that cruddy and sludgy oil in the engine. He said something that "oil never wears out, so why replace it." With that "know it all" attitude, I never even bothered to try to convince him of the advantage of changing oil. I have no idea how long his engines lasted under this crazy care, but I know for sure that I would never buy a car from him, that he had driven for a while.

[nipper]

I once had a conversation with a guy who used dino oil, and never ever changed his oil. He said, that all he would do is change the filter every 3-4K miles, and add oil when low. I thought, and still think, the guy was nuts to leave all that cruddy and sludgy oil in the engine. He said something that "oil never wears out, so why replace it." With that "know it all" attitude, I never even bothered to try to convince him of the advantage of changing oil. I have no idea how long his engines lasted under this crazy care, but I know for sure that I would never buy a car from him, that he had driven for a while.

 

 

Oil when it is pure never goes bad, BUT there is no such thing as pure oil. Oil since day 1 has always had additive in it. Oil keeps dirt and stuff in suspension, and the filter doesnt always get all of that. There are many other additives in it that break down with time (same with synthetic). Engines designed to run synthetis can have real 15K oil changes, but i would NEVER let the life blood of a 20,000 plus dollar car go that long.

This is why there are sludge issues killing engines.

 

I have always said that if you want an eingine to last forever, 5000 miles on dino is perfect, and doing it sooner wont hurt anything. I use synthetic ( not all older cars can use it) becuas of short trips.

 

Now a heads up. Engine requirements for oil are starting to get engine specific (almost as bad as transmission fluid). Not all oils will work in older engines, watch the specs on oil. Same goes for small engines. Don't assume oil is oil.

[lucid_door]

nipper makes a good point about engine specific oils. I hit 170k with my old 3.1 Corsica years ago with conventional, never burned a drop the entire time and it ran like a top when I finally sold it. I've been sold on synthetic for years now though. I had a Corolla with the 3 speed auto, and that thing would hit 4000 rpm on the interstate, and I ran Mobil 1 5-40 (the Delvac stuff they came out with for the Duramax when the 15-40 conventional proved to be too thick up here in Wisconsin winters LOL) in that vehicle for the 5+ years I owned that; really good oil, and it wouldn't burn off nearly as fast as any other oil I tried. I had to run conventional in my Trooper as well, as it had the classic Trooper head gasket leak; got rid of that with 140k on the clock. My Legacy's first engine hit 217k on MaxLife synthetic before one of the timing belt idlers seized and tore a big chunk out of the block; I always wonder how long it would have gone had that not happened.

 

Speaking of vehicle specific, I can't wait until GM's new synthetic requirement comes out and I have to explain to the drivers of these vehicles why their oil change is going to cost 65$ minimum to keep their warranty. Hard enough getting the VW/Audi crowd to believe their owner's manual when I let them know what they should be using LOL

[nipper]

Speaking of vehicle specific, I can't wait until GM's new synthetic requirement comes out and I have to explain to the drivers of these vehicles why their oil change is going to cost 65$ minimum to keep their warranty. Hard enough getting the VW/Audi crowd to believe their owner's manual when I let them know what they should be using LOL

 

Not to mention all the quick-lubes and Jiffy lubes and the lawsuits. How many people do you know that actually opne the owners manual and read the fluid sepcs that cahng ethier own oil.

[rverdoold]

In europe the intervals are longer 7 to 9000 miles for subaru, and VAG group even says that with long-life oil it lasts 20000 miles in their VW and Audis.

I always changed with semi-synthetic 5W40 or 10W40 every 7500 miles as long the oil was rated API-SL.

 

I have seen an interview with an ex-worker of a dutch oil company which had ran a car for twenty years only short distances and they never had replaced the oil. Only the filter every 7500 miles and it ran for 120k miles no problems were found. Still curious about a scientific research for this.

[bulwnkl]

Nipper's right about more manufacturer-specific motor oils coming. The Euros have been using that ludicrously complicated (and lucrative for them!) system for a long time, but now the American labels are going to start. GM is trying to push and require a Dexos certification/spec, which they want an absolute arm and a leg for. If API would stop trying to be a hindrance, maybe GM wouldn't have done it, but the then new GF-5 (& SN) spec is awfully far ahead of the current GF-4 & SM.

 

Personally, I don't have any greater confidence in manufacturer-specific specs anyway. VAG's proprietary specs change like the wind, yet they offer dramatically poor protection in some of their company's own highest-performance engines. There's just nothing special about the proprietary specs, IMO, but if you want your warranty, you'll pay for it!

[mr.radon]

I've got several old ER27 engines nearing 300K. To keep them clean and the lifters quiet I add 1 quart of ATF after every oil change. Engine stays SUPER clean and no ticking. Change the oil every 4-5K. (I had a noisy EA82 tht this worked well on too)

If you have a high mileage engine I suggest running the 1 quart ATF. The additives in ATF work pretty well cleaning out the gunk from the engine and is cheap.

 

I run synthetic Mobile 1 in my newer cars. No issue. Just replace oil and filter.

[nipper]

In europe the intervals are longer 7 to 9000 miles for subaru, and VAG group even says that with long-life oil it lasts 20000 miles in their VW and Audis.

I always changed with semi-synthetic 5W40 or 10W40 every 7500 miles as long the oil was rated API-SL.

 

I have seen an interview with an ex-worker of a dutch oil company which had ran a car for twenty years only short distances and they never had replaced the oil. Only the filter every 7500 miles and it ran for 120k miles no problems were found. Still curious about a scientific research for this.

 

Thats Europe. Driving habits are differnt. Fuel is differnt. Anyone can say anything they want on TV, you need lab results to back it up. Also it seems this smae guy makes the rounds as everyone has heard of him. If this was true every military peice of equipment would do the same.

 

Also VW's have a huge sludge build up problem, as well as many other high mileage interval cars here in the states.

 

Now if somone wnats to throw away thier warrenties on a 25,000 dollar car, they can do whatever they please. I for one wouldnt even advertise some person who goes against common sense. I bet the first people who would badmouth would be subaru if the car threw a ring at 25K.

 

Being an automotive engineer, there is always one nutcase out there that does things like this. He does not say how much oil he adds between filter intervals, and this is where the fibs come in. All cars will use some oil over time, and have to be topped off. Some cars are 1qt ever 5000 miles (normal) some may be every 15, but it does happen. If they saythey never needed to thats BS.

 

Also was he getting a special formular oil is another question.

 

nipper

[GeneralDisorder]

If this was true every military peice of equipment would do the same.

 

Thought I would mention it - the Army (when I was in anyway) runs an oil analysis program (Army Oil Analysis Program, or AOAP for short). We never changed the oil unless the analysis people told us to - usually we heard nothing and when we did we were typically told to get a second sample and then again heard nothing or it was simply determined that he engine was shot and needed to be overhauled :-\ (mind you - many of these trucks were Korean War vintage - 1950's and 1960's). The military is basically the largest domestic consumer of oil and fuel products and as such they do a lot of analysis and run their own analysis programs. It pays off for them and the success of their program is a big indicator of how important oil analysis is if you are going to spend the money on synthetics. At the end of all this discussion, debate, speculation, and anecdotal evidence - if you aren't doing analysis then you really don't know anything.

 

Actually I can't remember a single time when I actually changed oil except one time on a generator engine - changed all 27 quarts in that one - per the AOAP report.

 

In my opinion there is only two viable approaches to engine oil:

 

1. Use regular, quality oil - change it and the filter on a regular basis. 5k is a good number for most engines.

 

2. Use synthetics, do analysis, and change it when indicated by the report.

 

It's really that simple. Those are the two time-tested and accepted methods. Anything else is speculation and gambling.

 

GD

Edited April 28, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Mike104]

...the success of their program is a big indicator of how important oil analysis is if you are going to spend the money on synthetics. At the end of all this discussion, debate, speculation, and anecdotal evidence - if you aren't doing analysis then you really don't know anything.

 

In my opinion there is only two viable approaches to engine oil:

 

1. Use regular, quality oil - change it and the filter on a regular basis. 5k is a good number for most engines.

 

2. Use synthetics, do analysis, and change it when indicated by the report.

 

It's really that simple. Those are the two time-tested and accepted methods. Anything else is speculation and gambling.

 

GD

 

I think that pretty well sums it all up without any hype or marketing spin.

 

As an interesting point of comparison many Jet engined aircraft ($$$$$$ engines) don't change oil either. Some do UOA to determine whether an engine or gearbox should be removed from service but not on when the oil should be changed. Due to the high usage rate of the engine it typically burns enough oil in normal operation (oil consumption rate is calculated and a limit is established) to go through an effective oil change. Again this is a synthetic oil only used on aircraft jet engines/gearboxes, Don't use it in your Piston Engine! (uses neopentyl polyol ester base stocks).

[bulwnkl]

...there is always one nutcase out there that does things like this. He does not say how much oil he adds between filter intervals, and this is where the fibs come in. All cars will use some oil over time, and have to be topped off. Some cars are 1qt ever 5000 miles (normal) some may be every 15, but it does happen...

 

Agreed.

 

Another factor is that European oil pans are often twice or more as capacious as the N. American versions. That alone will make a dramatic difference in required/prudent/specified OCI.

[nipper]

Agreed.

 

Another factor is that European oil pans are often twice or more as capacious as the N. American versions. That alone will make a dramatic difference in required/prudent/specified OCI.

 

Yes they dont seem to build thier cars to the tightest performance and dimmension they can get away with. Also they like tiny engines so they tend to have more room to allow for a bigger sump, i never noticed to tell the truth. I just know with the stupidly small capacity they are causing cludge issues. I dare anyone to do that with any of the engines that have had sludge issues and see how far they get

 

When we used jet turbines to power helicopter towed mine sweepers we had oil change intervals. Maybe it was the fast cycling. We did oil analysis but still had to change the oil. the hydraulic oil we never changed.

[rverdoold]

Agreed.

 

Another factor is that European oil pans are often twice or more as capacious as the N. American versions. That alone will make a dramatic difference in required/prudent/specified OCI.

 

Is it? Never knew that. My EJ161 (1.6) holds 4.5 liters (or 4.75 US quartrs) Which is the same amount here for the 1.8 and the normal soch 2.0.

[GeneralDisorder]

I think he's refering to the micro-car engines - like the 500cc to 1000cc stuff. Though I have no experience with any of these. That's just my guess at what nipper was refering too.

 

Subaru probably uses the same pan as they do here - but an EJ16 is not much smaller than the EJ18 we got in the early impreza..... but isn't that a fairly large engine by most european standards?

 

A "big" engine here in the US doesn't even rate on the scale unless it's 5.0 Liter's or higher. Frankly a 5.0 is only a 302 cubic inch and my old GMC truck has a 350 which in the states here we refer to as a "small block" . The big, bad engines that were availible for towing in my old truck would have been the "big block" 460 cubic inch variant - which is a 7.5 Liter engine. That's what "BIG" means over here. Subaru engines are all small to us, and the engines found in lot of euro mini cars are motorcycle or moped engines to me. I've seen bigger power plants on riding lawn-mowers over here

 

GD

[nipper]

Whats scary is i've seen some V-6's called big engines. Maybe they just mean by HP.

 

Funny how in europe 1.2L and incredibly long 0-60 times (times that would be considered dangerous here) are acceptable.

 

nipper

[bulwnkl]

Is it? Never knew that. My EJ161 (1.6) holds 4.5 liters (or 4.75 US quartrs) Which is the same amount here for the 1.8 and the normal soch 2.0.

 

I don't expect that Subarus, being Japanese, will be terribly different. Most (but not all, perhaps) of the European brands that routinely push for extremely-long drain intervals will have huge sumps. Porsche and M-B are two that come to mind first. It would not be uncommon for an engine of theirs to have a sump capacity of 2 or 3 gallons, vs. a fairly common 1 - 1 1/4 gallons for similar-size American (or Japanese?) cars. Heck, even my 1976-1/2 Alfa Romeo with a not-very-powerful 2-liter held about 3 gallons! No American car of the type or horsepower from that time held nearly that much.

 

Basically, any given oil has a certain amount of useful 'life' available in any given service environment. So let us suppose that in a particular engine and service pattern a gallon of oil will work acceptably for 5,000 miles. If you want to go 10,000 miles, you need 2 gallons. You can either have a sump that holds 1 gallon and change it once during that 10,000 miles, or you can have a sump that holds 2 gallons and not change it during the 10,000 miles.

 

Nipper, that's a great example from the helos, and also a great example of how much damage is done by the combustion process and its by-products. Your engine oil had to be changed, but hydraulic oil (which doesn't deal with combustion by-products) didn't. I'm sure there were other factors, too(?), but combustion is certainly one that affects useful life!