meghpie Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 Hello all! I have a question about my '92 Loyale. I'm just back from a diagnostic check at the mechanic with no answers. It's an automatic, with a new (used) transmission just put in a year ago. About a month ago, I had the radiator replaced, and after leaving the shop, I was driving and when I applied the throttle I heard a low whine just when the gas was applied. Whenever I let up it went away, and the noise stopped entirely after a few seconds. I called the shop immediately and they said it was probably not a big deal, maybe some air in the cooling system, etc. They said to keep an ear out, but just a one time thing was probably nothing. Fast forward to this Tuesday- it made the noise 3 times in one day, and I called again. They said it could be a belt that wasn't tightened properly after the radiator went in, and to bring it in. Well, the belts looked fine, and they tested a fan (I didn't catch which fan, just remember they said it came on very intermittently, maybe a clutch fan?) and said it was fine. They could duplicate the problem at all, so I came away not knowing. So now I'm looking into possible causes myself, and so far I've found two possibilities. Either the front differential, or the alternator bearing. The front diff is terrifying, because I cannot afford to replace the tranny again. The alternator would make sense because I've suspected it's been going out for a while as the voltage just seems low. Although the noise only happening when applying the throttle doesn't seem like it would be the alternator. If anyone has any thoughts as to what this may be, I'd appreciate it. I love this little car and want to keep it going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 Check the voltage from the alternator - the dash gauges are notoriously bad indicators of proper alternator functioning. Use a mechanic's stethescope of the end of a screwdriver handle to listen to the alternator as you rev the engine a bit by hand. Whining as you describe is generally a good indication of issues with bearings - alternator is a possiblility as are other bearings such as timing belt ilder and tensioner bearings, etc. See if you can locate it with a stethescope. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted May 1, 2010 Author Share Posted May 1, 2010 Check the voltage from the alternator - the dash gauges are notoriously bad indicators of proper alternator functioning. Use a mechanic's stethescope of the end of a screwdriver handle to listen to the alternator as you rev the engine a bit by hand. Whining as you describe is generally a good indication of issues with bearings - alternator is a possiblility as are other bearings such as timing belt ilder and tensioner bearings, etc. See if you can locate it with a stethescope. GD I will try that. My only issue is that it's so very intermittent that it might be recreate the noise. Do you think the alternator is making some level of the noise constantly that I may be able to detect? Also, do you think anything about this doesn't fit with the front differential bearing possibility? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 (edited) If the front diff were going out - you would know it and it would happen all the time. The noise would also change with vehicle speed rather than with engine speed. Since your noise seems more related to throttle posistion and therefore engine RPM, I conclude that your noise is probably not transmission related. If it's very intermittant to the point that you can't even locate it..... I'll tell you what I tell everyone about such problems - wait till it get's less intermittant. For now it's not an issue that you can't drown out with the radio. The exception to that is if the alternator is putting out any decent amount of AC current - replace it immediately. A full check of the alternator output is definitely in order. GD Edited May 1, 2010 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted May 1, 2010 Author Share Posted May 1, 2010 If the front diff were going out - you would know it and it would happen all the time. The noise would also change with vehicle speed rather than with engine speed. Since your noise seems more related to throttle posistion and therefore engine RPM, I conclude that your noise is probably not transmission related. If it's very intermittant to the point that you can't even locate it..... I'll tell you what I tell everyone about such problems - wait till it get's less intermittant. For now it's not an issue that you can't drown out with the radio. The exception to that is if the alternator is putting out any decent amount of AC current - replace it immediately. A full check of the alternator output is definitely in order. GD Ahh, I see. Interesting. When I replaced the battery last November they said the output was a little low and to count on replacing it soon. I'm happy I've found this place! Thanks so much for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 No problem - happy to help. That's what this place is all about. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoyale Posted May 2, 2010 Share Posted May 2, 2010 So, whats the word on this noise? One way to see if the Alt is getting old is to drive at night with the lights on and come to a stop and see how dim your lights get at idle in "Drive" the lights will dim a little as its only a 60amp Alternator, but if they dim more then a fraction I would replace the alternator. Also, Volt gauge on the dash should be reading about 12v with the lights on and in drive at idle (500-700rpm) Cheers -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 2, 2010 Share Posted May 2, 2010 My first suspect for this kind of noise would be a worn out bearing in the idler pulley. Loosen the belt and see if the pulley wobbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted May 6, 2010 Author Share Posted May 6, 2010 Interesting ideas. I do think the alternator is on it's way out. A while back the car wouldn't start and I had the alternator tested and they said it had a fairly low output, but the culprit at the time was a bad cell in the battery, so I opted to just replace the battery at that time, and plan on doing the alternator at a future point. I'll try to get over to the battery shop and have it tested again. I'll also call my mechanic and see if he checked the idler pulley when he had it in there. I know for a fact the oil pump is leaking. I'm not sure if this would have anything to do with the noise, and I'm assuming my mechanic would have caught it. I'm truly jealous of all you guys with the know-how to fix your own cars. I am not looking forward to paying the 600 bucks it will take to replace the oil pump. I tell myself (and my husband, lol) that at least I'm not paying a huge payment and full insurance, and, honestly, I prefer my Loyale for winter driving up here in Alaska, but I sure wish I had a garage and tools so I could cut down on some of the maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 6, 2010 Share Posted May 6, 2010 (edited) Oil leaks, headgaskets, timing belts, radiator, and alternator, plus more, are all things you may need to replace or work on with a car that old. In my opinion a person that can't save money on service shop bills by working on an older car themselves may be better off having a newer car that doesn't need a lot of maintenance, even if you need to borrow some money and take on a reasonable monthly payment each month. I think it will save you down time and money over the long run. Add up your service bills over the year and see what you are spending to maintain the vehicle. Edited May 6, 2010 by Cougar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted May 6, 2010 Author Share Posted May 6, 2010 Oil leaks, headgaskets, timing belts, radiator, and alternator, plus more, are all things you may need to replace or work on with a car that old. In my opinion a person that can't save money on service shop bills by working on an older car themselves may be better off having a newer car that doesn't need a lot of maintenance, even if you need to borrow some money and take on a reasonable monthly payment each month. I think it will save you down time and money over the long run. Add up your service bills over the year and see what you are spending to maintain the vehicle. I agree with you, although I feel very comfortable with the amount of money I've put into this car for what I'm getting out of it. I'm definitely "ahead" compared to payments and full coverage insurance, and I have the car I want. I'm saving money for a newer car for when this one implodes, and at that point I'm going to try to fix it myself as a hobby. This car's good points are a fully resealed engine 2 years ago, a new transmission, and a new radiator. When the either the oil pump, water pump, or timing belt fail I think I'm going to try to do it myself in my friend's garage. I figure the cost will be too much to justify paying, and the car isn't worth much to sell (reconstructed title, older car). At that time I'll probably try to buy a newer car as my every day car and have this one to tinker with. Thanks again for the ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 That sounds like a good plan to me also. You have the real expensive fixes taken care of already. Hopefully the rest of the items don't give you any trouble in the meantime. I would say chances are pretty good you will be fine until then. If not you at least can take advantage of the good advice from here at this site. It also looks like we live in in the same neck of the woods so if you really need some help I may be able give a hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted May 7, 2010 Author Share Posted May 7, 2010 That sounds like a good plan to me also. You have the real expensive fixes taken care of already. Hopefully the rest of the items don't give you any trouble in the meantime. I would say chances are pretty good you will be fine until then. If not you at least can take advantage of the good advice from here at this site. It also looks like we live in in the same neck of the woods so if you really need some help I may be able give a hand. Wow, a fellow Anchorage-ite! Very cool! Thanks for the offer. I've looked through the steps for replacing the timing belt and what not and it seems like a lot of this stuff you just have to "do" in order to learn. I'd just rather learn on a car I'm not completely depending on as a daily driver. Anyways, I'm hoping this car is good for a bit too- it has low miles and runs good. That oil pump makes me nervous but there's not a whole lot I can do about it right now and I've heard they can leak for a while before they fail. I just need to remember to check the oil regularly. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 If the oil pump does start to leak it won't leak oil out of the engine. The oil still stays inside it. I wouldn't be real concerned about it. Just make sure to do the oil changes every 3k miles and make sure the other fluids are ok by checking them every so often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted July 20, 2010 Author Share Posted July 20, 2010 Hello all. Car is still going! We were going out of town up a steep grade on a hot day and the noise came back. That seems to be the pattern- when the engine is working hard and it is hot out the noise happens. We've just been keeping it close to home and watching it. Any thoughts? Does is happening when the car is hot mean anything? TIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted July 20, 2010 Author Share Posted July 20, 2010 dp, sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matjes33 Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Do you have A/C? Does it happen only when the A/C is on? If you can answer both questions with "yes" than my guess is that your A/C fan is going out. Matthias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 yes/ no. I rarely use the ac and it hasn't been on most of the times I've heard the noise, but the weather has been hot/ warm each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 When my front differential was on it's way out in my 88 GL, it made a suspicious whinning noise that didn't appear until I hit a higher RPM mark. The whine I heard was similar in (high) pitch to that of a remote control car. At the time I didn't know that the differntial fluid was supposed to be clear. Mine was black. The diff went on me in a short time after hearing the noise - maybe a few hundred KM or so. All of these folks who are helping out here on your post have helped me through a lot so as a vote of confidence - you are in good hands. Good luck! Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted October 10, 2010 Author Share Posted October 10, 2010 Sigh. Well I guess it was bound to happen, but I was getting my oil changed today and they told me my head gaskets were leaking. So sad. I don't have the smarts or the tools for that job so my little Sub is on the slow ride to the junkyard, although she still runs great. They told me she might last a month or she might last a year, there's just no way of knowing. I'm hoping for another year of trouble free driving and absolutely dreading buying another car. Not only can I not afford anything decent, but I just have the worst luck with buying cars that seem great and then have massive problems. The guy at the desk said that head gasket problems are rare for loyales, but this is my second loyale with that issue, and I've had a legacy with the same problem. Anyways, short of fixing the head gasket (1900-2200 bucks) what can I do to make this little car last? Thanks in advance for any advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obk25xt Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 1900-2200 bux!! That's outrageous in my opinion. All the necessary seals/gaskets/fluids involved should cost at most 250 (ballpark), and I think that's bein a little high estimating. Engine removal/install about 4 hours total. Cleaning/disassembly/reassembly add another 4-ish!? I think I'm being somewhat reasonable/generous with my estimations. Ghat would mean the shop is charging over 200 an hour for labor? Seems very unrealistic to me. May be worth your time to do a little more research on the issue. You could buy 2-3 decent running comparable vehicles for that amount of money! Hope it all works out ok for ya. Spencer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 If the headgasket is just leaking externally, you are fine to keep on running it. If it's not losing coolant, making smoke, or overheating, you are fine. I've had EA82s with weeping HGs before, and as long as you keep them full of oil and coolant, they will keep on running. $1800 is WAAAAY too much for the HG job. Ridiculous. I don't even charge that for EJ25s I'd say $1000 tops. $250 parts $200 machining $550 Labor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 10, 2010 Share Posted October 10, 2010 If you are interested in a trip to the NW - I could find you a nice deal on a Legacy. It's what I do these days - find people cars and get them all straightened out. I would question the diagnosis - what indicators are they using to tell them the HG is the culprit? Who are these guys and what is their background in EA engine diagnostics? EA82's do blow head gaskets but it's usually related to an overheat or a serious amount of miles (250k+) causing the heads to chafe against the HG fire ring from a lot of hot/cold cycling. A head gasket job should be no more than $1000. If you find a board member or someone that's familair with these engines to do it then possibly much less. The parts will run about $200 give or take and then the heads will need surfaceing ($60 for the pair) and if the miles are high a valve grind and stem seal job wouldn't be a bad idea ($100 for the pair). If you were near me I would be able to do the whole job for around $750 with labor.... give or take. It's not actually that hard to do it and the only "special" tool you need is a torque wrench and on these engines the $20 special at Harbor Frieght, etc will do the job. You can easily do the head gaskets without pulling the engine although it's a bit more comfortable to pull it - you can rent a cherry picker and borrow a garage.... this doesn't have to be the end of the line for the car. You *can* do the job yourself with the help of the people on this board, maybe some local members in your area, and a garage plus a weekend to do it in. If you do it yourself you could easily come in under $400 - maybe closer to $300 depending on what you opt to replace while you are in there. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meghpie Posted October 11, 2010 Author Share Posted October 11, 2010 Well, they said I was losing coolant. They said to watch the levels. I don't get it because they resealed the engine a few years ago and it hasn't overheated and has low miles. As far as the price, I don't really know why they charge so much- they're the best shop up here from everyone I've asked but I guess I've never asked here. If anyone has a suggestion for a good shop in Anchorage, I'd be glad to know it. As far as doing it myself, I'd be happy to try- especially if it was that or trashing it. I've been wanting to transition into learning how to do this stuff myself but honestly have no idea where to start. I have a heated garage, and could beg or borrow a torque wrench. I'd like to keep this subie going because I prefer it over many newer cars, and because it has a new transmission and radiator. It sounds like if I'm going to fix this I should do it soon since I'm losing coolant- isn't it bad for the seals and whatnot? Also, they said the cold weather was going to hasten the deterioration. Well, if any Anchorage-ites have any pointers or would possibly be interested in helping me out, I'd be eternally grateful. I have access to a heated garage, and I'm very interested in learning! And GD, we have a trip for PDX planned next year, maybe we'll make it one way and drive a GD-approved subie back up. They are so expensive up here, and ridden hard and put away wet, if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 11, 2010 Share Posted October 11, 2010 (edited) Well, they said I was losing coolant. They said to watch the levels. I don't get it because they resealed the engine a few years ago and it hasn't overheated and has low miles. As far as the price, I don't really know why they charge so much- they're the best shop up here from everyone I've asked but I guess I've never asked here. If anyone has a suggestion for a good shop in Anchorage, I'd be glad to know it. As far as doing it myself, I'd be happy to try- especially if it was that or trashing it. I've been wanting to transition into learning how to do this stuff myself but honestly have no idea where to start. I have a heated garage, and could beg or borrow a torque wrench. I'd like to keep this subie going because I prefer it over many newer cars, and because it has a new transmission and radiator. It sounds like if I'm going to fix this I should do it soon since I'm losing coolant- isn't it bad for the seals and whatnot? Also, they said the cold weather was going to hasten the deterioration. Keep it topped off and watch the level closely. There's no telling exactly how long it has if it's losing coolant. Cold weather might indeed increase the deterioration - I haven't a lot of first-hand experience as ~25* F is the coldest we ever see here in the NW but it makes sense - larger gradient between hot/cold. I could see that. Well, if any Anchorage-ites have any pointers or would possibly be interested in helping me out, I'd be eternally grateful. I have access to a heated garage, and I'm very interested in learning! I would start a seperate post asking specifically for people in your area that could help. It's really not that bad of a job. And GD, we have a trip for PDX planned next year, maybe we'll make it one way and drive a GD-approved subie back up. They are so expensive up here, and ridden hard and put away wet, if you know what I mean. Certainly - I can see how that would be the case. I've heard that Subie's are real popular up there and people do almost anything to keep them on the road just a little longer. Just PM me before your trip and let me know your price range etc and I'll get something lined up for you. We have lots to choose from. GD Edited October 11, 2010 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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