odd alignment problem

[hatchsub]

Ive had it into a shop a few times now and they are puzzled now. Heres what it is doing.

 

If i turn left onto the highway on ramp it pulls to the left. If i turn right onto the on ramp it tracks straight and true. The techs thought it was a tire pull since they rotated the front two tires and got the car to pull to the right.....so i rotated the tires completely as in fronts to back and backs to front on both sides and i still have the same issue. Anyone ever heard of this before and can you guide me as to what i should be looking for? The alignment as said by their machines is pretty much dead on and would not account for this problem. There are new parts in the front end of the car that were carried over from the sedan such as

 

lower ball joints

both axles are new

shocks and struts

 

Basically the only part of the coupe that is coupe up front anymore is the radius rods and the steering linkage (inner and outer tie rods and actual power rack). The only thing i can think of is something needs some grease somewhere to allow it to go back to neutral after making a left turn.

[Gloyale]

If i turn left onto the highway on ramp it pulls to the left. If i turn right onto the on ramp it tracks straight and true.

 

 

Basically the only part of the coupe that is coupe up front anymore is the radius rods and the steering linkage (inner and outer tie rods and actual power rack).

 

I think you may have two issues.

 

1. I will bet that the left side radius rod is slightly bent, or the mount is slightly "pushed" back. I had this happen on my Sedan. The fix was to mount a thick washer behind the bushing on the radius rod to push the tire forward just a hair. From there, alignemt was possible and the turning felt balanced.

 

2. You may have a stuck U-joint/rag joint coupler for the steering column. If the car has P/S you can easily replace the rag unit with a double U-joint coupler from a EA82 with P/S

[hatchsub]

The car does have power steering so that might be an option for me. As for the radius rod being bent ill will never say never but this car has 55k miles on it so highly doubt thats the case...even though it very well could be. As i said the alignment techs said the alignment was pretty much dead on so i think number two is most plausible.

[Gloyale]

does it seem to *dart* into left turns, but *drag* itself through rights?

 

That is what I experienced with bad Radius rod bushings and bent/shifted radius rods.

 

It could easily just be the coupler though.

[hatchsub]

yea a bit idk what you mean though. It seems to just pull a bit to the left. I will have to crawl under it and look at the radius rods but i was under the car for a month doing lots of little stuff and i didnt see anything off.

[GeneralDisorder]

Are you sure the strut tops are both facing the same direction? They are marked on top which way they need to be for PS.

 

GD

[Markus56]

you could take a straight edge to your radius rods and tie rods to check for true.

[hatchsub]

Are you sure the strut tops are both facing the same direction? They are marked on top which way they need to be for PS.

 

GD

 

Yup positive on that one. Thanks though.

[hatchsub]

you could take a straight edge to your radius rods and tie rods to check for true.

 

I think ill do this after work today and see what i come up with.

[idosubaru]

if there's a small delay between where you turn and when it actually goes that way, that might point to steering rack bushings too. that's my only experience with those being loose or bad, not sure what else they could cause.

 

it does seem like a bushing would be more plausible given the propensity to have different characteristics left to right.

[hatchsub]

if there's a small delay between where you turn and when it actually goes that way, that might point to steering rack bushings too. that's my only experience with those being loose or bad, not sure what else they could cause.

 

it does seem like a bushing would be more plausible given the propensity to have different characteristics left to right.

 

Steering rack bushings you say? Would those be under the steer rack boots then? Is that something serviceable by me or would i be looking at getting a new rack?

[idosubaru]

Steering rack bushings you say? Would those be under the steer rack boots then?

The rack bushings are what is between the rack and the two brackets that hold the rack in place up under the car. They are not under any boots or anything really. Remove the two brackets and you can easily swap the bushings out yourself, very simple to do. I used whiteline aftermarket performance bushings that they use on Impreza's in XT6's. If they are bad you might be able to see visually or grab the rack and try moving/twisting it.

[mcbrat]

The rack bushings are what is between the rack and the two brackets that hold the rack in place up under the car. They are not under any boots or anything really. Remove the two brackets and you can easily swap the bushings out yourself, very simple to do. I used whiteline aftermarket performance bushings that they use on Impreza's in XT6's. If they are bad you might be able to see visually or grab the rack and try moving/twisting it.

 

yeah, the bushings deteriorate with age, and compress, making the rack loose...

 

I didn't replace mine, but added some strapping to the bracket to make it tighter...

[GeneralDisorder]

EA81 power rack's are bolted to the cross-member on the driver's side. I don't see how it could move if it's a power rack. The non-power rack's can get pretty sloppy though.

 

GD

[Numbchux]

I think I'd start with the rod ends. if you've got a little play in one, it could allow your toe to change a bit on one side.

[hatchsub]

EA81 power rack's are bolted to the cross-member on the driver's side. I don't see how it could move if it's a power rack. The non-power rack's can get pretty sloppy though.

 

GD

 

Yea i just came to that conclusion as well when i was under there. There is zero play in the actual rack to body mounts. The tie rod ends are original to the car though (so 28 years old) but i didnt feel any play in those either. I felt a bit of play in the steering rack when i wiggled the left arm but not enough that it would make this much difference.

 

I was looking at the actual universal joint in the steering linkage and the rubber donut gasket above it and neither looked all that great. There is a ever so slight tear in the donut too. Im talking really small but still...im wondering if some of my issues are coming from this area. The universal looked like the arms were spread a bit wider than they should have been. I went and compared to the sedan thats still sitting enginless in my driveway and that universal and donut gasket looked much better.

Edited May 20, 2010 by hatchsub

[GeneralDisorder]

The steering donut happens to be exactly the same as the old VW Bug one's. For $8 you can get a shiny red urethane one from any EMPI dealer.

 

Yes I'm completely serious about that. I've used half a dozen of them. It is 100% direct bolt-in .

 

The steering u-joints can get pretty weird when the start to freeze up. It's worth it to remove it and inspect. And replace the donut since it's just a no-brainer.

 

GD

[hatchsub]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EMPI-16-5150-VW-BUG-BUGGY-URETHANE-STEERING-COUPLER-/310147960904?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4836425048

 

This the one GD? Ill probably end up buying it on ebay since there is not an EMPI dealer nearby.

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - that's the one. $8 shipping is pretty steep though. I beleive they are $8.99 where I buy them. Check around - you might have a dealer in your area and not know about it. Any performance VW shop (even if it's not a store) probably can buy EMPI parts.

 

GD

[Caboobaroo]

I guess I can chime in with my $.02 since I do bave a little alignment experience:grin:

 

First off, steering rack bushings not only deteriorate with age but also from oil getting onto them. I currently have an issue with the ones in my XT6 sliding around since it does leak some oil... right onto them. Something that I need to fix before WCSS12.

 

Second, check the radius rod BUSHINGS. Sitting on an alignment rack, you're not putting rod force pressure on those million year old bushings so even though the alignment might be dead on, while driving and corning, its not.

 

Steve, sounds like the shop might not have someone that knows what to look for as far as doing alignments. I will ALWAYS check the front end of the car before I try to align it, especially when the customer has a handling issue. Then if they have a handling issue and the 3 main factors in alignments (Camber/Caster/Toe) are in spec, then I'll start checking SAI (Steering Axis Inclination), IA (Included Angle) and Setback. These 3 will also help in figuring out a handling issue.

 

Had a guy come in with a '04 STi a couple weeks ago because it seemed to drive all right but didn't want to handle very well and had massive bumpsteer. Found the Camber and Caster were in spec but SAI was not, causing the overexcessive bumpsteer. Fixed the SAI by adjusting his camber plates back up (more positive camber then it had), then readjusted the factory camber bolts down by the knuckle/strut assembly back to where the camber was. Camber was not effected but SAI was and his bumpsteer dissappeared.

 

So, check ALL the bushings, replace them if needed, realign it and post up ALL the specs. I'm curious if the shop checked everything over on the alignment machine. It takes literally 30 seconds to check everything I listed above.

[hatchsub]

I guess I can chime in with my $.02 since I do bave a little alignment experience:grin:

 

First off, steering rack bushings not only deteriorate with age but also from oil getting onto them. I currently have an issue with the ones in my XT6 sliding around since it does leak some oil... right onto them. Something that I need to fix before WCSS12.

 

Second, check the radius rod BUSHINGS. Sitting on an alignment rack, you're not putting rod force pressure on those million year old bushings so even though the alignment might be dead on, while driving and corning, its not.

 

Steve, sounds like the shop might not have someone that knows what to look for as far as doing alignments. I will ALWAYS check the front end of the car before I try to align it, especially when the customer has a handling issue. Then if they have a handling issue and the 3 main factors in alignments (Camber/Caster/Toe) are in spec, then I'll start checking SAI (Steering Axis Inclination), IA (Included Angle) and Setback. These 3 will also help in figuring out a handling issue.

 

Had a guy come in with a '04 STi a couple weeks ago because it seemed to drive all right but didn't want to handle very well and had massive bumpsteer. Found the Camber and Caster were in spec but SAI was not, causing the overexcessive bumpsteer. Fixed the SAI by adjusting his camber plates back up (more positive camber then it had), then readjusted the factory camber bolts down by the knuckle/strut assembly back to where the camber was. Camber was not effected but SAI was and his bumpsteer dissappeared.

 

So, check ALL the bushings, replace them if needed, realign it and post up ALL the specs. I'm curious if the shop checked everything over on the alignment machine. It takes literally 30 seconds to check everything I listed above.

 

Thanks for the reply RUSS. I know for a fact that caster is within spec but camber is not for the passenger front wheel. Its only off a small margin but they figured it would not cause THIS much of an issue. I think at this point i should start replacing some stuff anyways if everyone on here thinks its a smart move. The lower control arm bushings have over 100k on em and 28 years of use so im sure they are due to be replaced along with the radius rod bushings. I think thats it for bushings other than the steering rack bushings but if what GD says is true about the power rack (not doubting it but havent crawled under to look for myself) then i dont need to do anything about that.

Edited May 26, 2010 by hatchsub

[Gloyale]

The steering donut happens to be exactly the same as the old VW Bug one's. For $8 you can get a shiny red urethane one from any EMPI dealer.

 

Yes I'm completely serious about that. I've used half a dozen of them. It is 100% direct bolt-in .

 

The steering u-joints can get pretty weird when the start to freeze up. It's worth it to remove it and inspect. And replace the donut since it's just a no-brainer.

 

GD

 

But if the U-joint portion of it's trashed, he won't need to replace the rag.

 

I still say get a good used coupler from an EA82 and slap it in there. Eliminate the rag joint.

[Caboobaroo]

Pssssst, Steve...

 

Rob is TurboneX

 

I'm Russ:lol:

[hatchsub]

Pssssst, Steve...

 

Rob is TurboneX

 

I'm Russ:lol:

 

Damnit...there goes me working too much and posting in the morning half asleep. Sorry Russ i knew that I SWEAR