well - its NOT the flexplate

[tricked919]

yanked the motor out yesterday to hopefully find a cracked flexplate. No sush luck - its an internal knock. Its actually gotten a tad bit worse in the past week. Its now heard at idle - hot or cold.

 

So here's my dilemna... I have a 97 OBW in AWESOME condition (149K) with a knocking motor. Everything on the car works perfect, no rust, no body damage, interior is impeccable. We have $3300 in the car as it is. The previous owner just put new HG's, belts and radiator in it. The knock started about 800 miles after we bought it - so apparently the previous owner ran the p!ss out of it hot and did internal damage. Of course I'm now paranoid to buy another junkyard motor. Do I...

A.) take my chances on a junkyard motor

B.) buy an ebay JDM engine

C.) buy a $3000 complete reman motor and drive it for another 100K (optimistically)

D.) dump the car with a knock - take my losses and go pack to new car payments.

 

I really liked the idea of having a paid for car, but if I'm dumping this much cash into one... what's the point. I'm starting to wonder what's so great about these cars if they can't go 150K without blowing head gaskets.

 

...oh, it needs a steering rack too.

Edited May 23, 2010 by tricked919

[Fairtax4me]

E) Swap in a dime a dozen good for 300k+ miles with no head gasket trouble used 2.2 engine.

I pick that one.

 

Search the board here, that's a very well covered topic because people do it ALL the time.

[idosubaru]

Internal bearing issues are not uncommon on EJ25's. No matter what you do you end up with an EJ25 and their inherent headgasket, bearing, and piston slap issues.

 

Do an EJ22 swap. More reliable and if they're not overheated/run out of oil they do not have bearing or headgasket issues. Read about it here, plenty of information already covered just do some studying, it's plug and play!!!

 

EJ22 swaps are also much cheaper.

[hankosolder2]

+1

 

While any used engine can be a crap shoot, the early EJ 22s were so reliable that barring extreme neglect, you can almost bet that any EJ22 equipped car you find in the junkyard will be there for a reason other than a bad engine.

I swapped a used 150K mile one into my car and it has lasted for years and doesn't require any oil top offs between changes!

 

I know you're feeling discouraged, but I think that once you get the engine sorted out you'll be able to truck on for many years with only minor repairs. Remember, there's a 100% change new car payments are going to happen without fail every month. With a used car, you'll take your lumps every now and then, but the average will work out in your favor.

 

Happy motoring!

 

Nathan

[Gloyale]

 

I really liked the idea of having a paid for car, but if I'm dumping this much cash into one... what's the point. I'm starting to wonder what's so great about these cars if they can't go 150K without blowing head gaskets.

 

Because you will still own it after getting the HG's done, and then it will be ready to go for another 5, 10, or 15 years.

 

Compare that to a GM that will explode pistons @100k. Or a Nissan that loses a timing chain(yes it happens) Every car and engine is prone to some type of failure.

 

What makes subaru great is that even the failures are predictable, and relatively easy to fix.

 

You'll pay more in one year of interest on a new car loan the the cost of rebuilding your motor. Not to mention higher insurance.

 

Every mile you put on your car WILL cost you something. Fixing the car you already have is almost always the less expensive option.

[The Dude]

First of all, I'm sorry that you're experiencing car problems. I know how frustrating they can be. Unfortunately, the Subaru 2.5L DOHC engine is a powerplant with well documented, and widely known, serious problems. Personally, I would only buy a Subaru with a 2.5L DOHC engine after deducting the cost of a head gasket replacement, or engine replacement, from a reasonable asking price.

 

I would go with a 2.2L swap. According to one poster, a rebuilt engine may not be risk free. Check the 14 page "Not a Happy Camper" thread for one buyer's alleged experience. If I'm in the same situation, I'll probably take my chances on a 2.5 SOHC from a wreck.

Edited May 23, 2010 by The Dude

[GeneralDisorder]

I'm starting to wonder what's so great about these cars if they can't go 150K without blowing head gaskets.

 

I'm sure anyone would wonder that if their only experience was with the worst EJ series engine produced.

 

Fact of the matter is that the phase I EJ25's like your's have known issues - the most prevalent is HG's. And since their HG failure's typically result in repeated overheating - they also suffer from bottom end failure - something that is almost unheard of in any other Subaru engine. This is due to abusively not changing the head gaskets at the first signs of failure.

 

I'm sorry that you got stuck with a lemon, but it's widely known and frequntly talked about on here. A little research before you buy goes a long way. Your problem is not unexpected and to condemn the entire brand is pretty much ignorance. That's like saying Toyota is junk because you owned an early 3VZE - they had similar problems with head gaskets.

 

Your best bet is to drop in a used EJ22 - they are much more reliable and it's an easy conversion.

 

GD

[tricked919]

I'm sure anyone would wonder that if their only experience was with the worst EJ series engine produced.

 

Fact of the matter is that the phase I EJ25's like your's have known issues - the most prevalent is HG's. And since their HG failure's typically result in repeated overheating - they also suffer from bottom end failure - something that is almost unheard of in any other Subaru engine. This is due to abusively not changing the head gaskets at the first signs of failure.

 

I'm sorry that you got stuck with a lemon, but it's widely known and frequntly talked about on here. A little research before you buy goes a long way. Your problem is not unexpected and to condemn the entire brand is pretty much ignorance. That's like saying Toyota is junk because you owned an early 3VZE - they had similar problems with head gaskets.

 

Your best bet is to drop in a used EJ22 - they are much more reliable and it's an easy conversion.

 

GD

 

I needed this - and you're right - to d@mn the brand is ignorant ...its just frustrating on this end. We did homework before buying this one. The fact that this had just been repaired by a Subie tech before we bough it, I thought I killed the elephant in the room. Everyhting I saw said "if you find a 97 that has new HG's, TB, etc., you might have a winer ... not so much. We got burned.

 

OK, so after a day of mulling this over and reading posts, we have decided to keep the car. The EJ22 swap can't be ignored, so we'll look at that route.

Thanks for the input.

[idosubaru]

Everyhting I saw said "if you find a 97 that has new HG's, TB, etc., you might have a winer ... not so much. We got burned.

sorry, i even recommend that, though I've got dead EJ25's lying around. that's typically a better bet than an unknown one. Legacy GT I recently picked up with a locked up motor had the headgaskets replaced at 34,000. With EJ25's coming in the nicer vehicles and having better options it's harder for folks to get into an EJ22, the late 90's EJ25's are at a common price point now. Hard to come up with a one-size fits all recommendation but sorry you got hosed here.

 

hopefully you can find a nice EJ22 and be done with it.

[bheinen74]

It was a sad day when Subaru introduced the EJ25 headgasket issue.

Long live gen1 ej22

 

I do believe the prices for used cars with EJ25 will become lower priced for selling even than say a beat up 89-94 ej22 legacy. Reliability is worth more when pricing these than newness.

 

So, my suggestion is same as others, good bye to the ej25 and hello ej22 swap.

[Gloyale]

There are Thousands and Thousands of EJ25s driving round every day. Could count 50+, just in my town on a given day.

 

Every one that I've done HG's in is still drivng round 3,4,5 years later. Haven't personally had one come in with rod knock.

 

Maybe I'm just too into having some ponies in the stable, but I would personally rebuild the 2.5

 

It really isn't that hard to clear off a table, split the case, and put some new bearings, rings in it and put it back toghether.

 

That being said......2.2 is an INCREDIBLY good motor. Very durable. You won't be making a mistake with a swap. You might miss some horsepower though.

[idosubaru]

Haven't personally had one come in with rod knock.

That's surprising given you're in it every day. Davebugs and I have seen quite a few..probably subaru360 as well? But we're *looking* for that kind of car too.

 

Wouldn't a full on rebuild need to be mic'ed and plastigauged or is that overkill?

[davebugs]

Yea - rod knock is very common to the cars I see. Not piston slap - rod knock.

 

But as GG said I'm typically buying broken cars (HG's typically). So I rarely fix the HG's unless I can talk to the PO and confirm it doesn't have many overheating cycles on it. If someone has played with it enough that it has a new WP, rad cap, etc. I figure it's been overheated too many times and just 2.2 it.

 

I'd just reseal a 2.2 and drop it in.

 

 

If you find someone that will do the bearing correctly and cheapely I've got 6-8 complete 2.5's here that need HG's and bearings.

 

I'm not currently doing much car stuff but if I could get 2.5's done well and reasonably I would seriousely consider that option.

[tricked919]

Not sure if you guys saw my latest post, but I landed an EJ22 out of a 96 Legacy Sedan today. Its got 161K and runs good. I got the motor for $650 and I paid $200 for all new seals and belts (all OEM stuff). I'm dropping in myself.

 

So $850 for a sealed EJ22 vs rebuilding a proven P.O.S. EJ25 seemed like a no-brainer. Barring that the bad rod doesn't get spit out of the block on the way to the shop, I plan on taking the EJ25 apart to see if I can get it back in useable condition.

 

Along with yanking this EJ25 out to check the flexplate, my wrenching background has consisted of bolt-on stuff (like timing belts, brakes, radiators, VC and OP gaskets, and a couple VW and Jeep clutches). I did headers on my 350Z which was probably the hardest thing I've ever done (effort-wise). I've never broken down a motor - which is clearly requires more skill than muscle and dexterity. Its a little intimidating but I'm curious to see if I can get anywhere with it. Gotta start somewhere. The killer for me is not having more than standard bench tools.

 

I don't want to dump the EJ25 - but am I biting off more than I can chew?

[davebugs]

The 2.2 swap is very easy. I didn't believe it the first time I did one.

 

Usually the only engine swap issue that needs some playing with are the charcoal canister lines and sometimes vacuum lines - but it can all be figured out. Every swap seems just a little bit different.

 

And no bracket for the PS lines - but who cares.

 

If you've already got loose that lower drivers side nut in the bellhousing and had the enigne seperated (when looking for a flexplate issue) the hard part is already done. You will need a single port Y-pipe though.

 

Good luck.

[GeneralDisorder]

Wouldn't a full on rebuild need to be mic'ed and plastigauged or is that overkill?

 

Mostly overkill. I wouldn't bother with the plasti-gauge unless I had the crank ground and was using undersized bearing inserts, etc..... that said - the fact that is has a rod knock might very well mean that the rod journals are scored. But plasti-guaging a rod journal is a lot easier than a main journal since you don't have to assemble and re-split the case.

 

Definitely Mic. the crank and check for scoring, etc. Replace main and rod inserts, break up the glazing on the cylinders with a brush-hone so the new rings will seat..... slap it back together.

 

GD

[tricked919]

Mostly overkill. I wouldn't bother with the plasti-gauge unless I had the crank ground and was using undersized bearing inserts, etc..... that said - the fact that is has a rod knock might very well mean that the rod journals are scored. But plasti-guaging a rod journal is a lot easier than a main journal since you don't have to assemble and re-split the case.

 

Definitely Mic. the crank and check for scoring, etc. Replace main and rod inserts, break up the glazing on the cylinders with a brush-hone so the new rings will seat..... slap it back together.

 

GD

 

Here's to showing how little I know about this and that I probably shouldn't mess with this...

 

If the crank is OK, can I just get new OEM main and rod inserts (bearings), or do I need to spec exact sizes for each and buy them specific? For example, might they all be a few thousandths off from each other? What about rings?