Need advice for minor Torque Bind issue.

[tforce]

My sister's 95 Legacy LSi, 165K, had the Auto tranny crapped out. The dealer told her they thought the bands were falling apart and the particles were plugging the filter, hence slowing the flow of fluid once the car had driven a few miles and causing the tranny to slip.

 

I picked up a used tranny with 150k and put it in. All is well except for some minor torque bind. Seems to occur even when the the fuse is in the FWD slot. NO AT Oil Temp or warning lights of any kind are showing any signs of problems. I've read several threads on torque bind and am pretty convinced I need to do some work in the rear extension housing. I still have the old tranny so I can rob parts off of it. I'm also going to take the car into a shop and have the tranny flushed/serviced.

 

My question is...should I take the car in for the service before or after working on the rear ext? Maybe I get lucky and the flush will cure the problem?

 

Thanks.

Tyler

[msmithmmx]

No guarantees here but it worked for me. Get to a parking lot with no cars. Complete several tight figure eights. Try it out

[idosubaru]

there's a number of different things you can try. driving it for a bit might free it up. or not. that's also bad on components to drive it too much binding.

 

sometimes a fluid change helps, sometimes it doesn't. it's not a 100% thing either way and depends on what's causing the issue exactly.

 

do a drain and refill or two yourself of the ATF?

[tforce]

I'm concerned that some of the gunk that broke free from the old tranny is still in the system. I just drained the old tranny and swapped the new one in so there could still have been stuff sitting in the cooling lines, etc. Maybe that could be causing the problem?

 

The guy I bought the tranny from said he didn't notice anything when he drove the car home. But it was in a rear end wreck and he bought it for parts. So he only drove just enough to get it home and wasn't paying too much attention to detail.

 

So far completing tight turns hasn't done anything to help but I haven't gone out and done several of them on purpose all in a row. I'll try that when I have a chance.

Edited May 30, 2010 by tforce

[johnceggleston]

I'm concerned that some of the gunk that broke free from the old tranny is still in the system. I just drained the old tranny and swapped the new one in so there could still have been stuff sitting in the cooling lines, etc. Maybe that could be causing the problem?

 

The guy I bought the tranny from said he didn't notice anything when he drove the car home. But it was in a rear end wreck and he bought it for parts. So he only drove just enough to get it home and wasn't paying too much attention to detail.

 

So far completing tight turns hasn't done anything to help but I haven't gone out and done several of them on purpose all in a row. I'll try that when I have a chance.

 

there is a pretty good chance that changing the fluid will help. if you can change your oil you can do the drain and fill several times and save 100$. but either way new clean fluid may help.

 

if it doesn't you can always swap in the rear extension housing from the bad trans.

 

i doubt the fluid in the cooler or lines would cause any problems, most of it should have drained out when the trans was pulled.

 

do all 4 tires match??

[tforce]

there is a pretty good chance that changing the fluid will help. if you can change your oil you can do the drain and fill several times and save 100$. but either way new clean fluid may help.

 

if it doesn't you can always swap in the rear extension housing from the bad trans.

 

i doubt the fluid in the cooler or lines would cause any problems, most of it should have drained out when the trans was pulled.

 

do all 4 tires match??

 

Ya, the tires are good. I checked the air, evened them all out and it didn't help. The car never had this issue when my sister was driving it. I could do the drain and fill myself but I figure with a used tranny and the problems with the original tranny it would be wise to have a full pro service and flush done regardless of wheher I swap out ext housings or not.

 

6/02/2010- Went out last night and did a bunch of figure 8's. Didn't help at all.

Edited June 2, 2010 by tforce

[tforce]

OK. The latest......

Originally I had Torque Bind in AWD and FWD. The FWD light came on when the fuse was in. I had NO flashing AT Oil Temp light indications of any kind.

 

I had a full service/flush done by a shop. They said everything looked normal. Torque Bind is still there in AWD but not in FWD and the FWD light is on when the fuse is in. When I switched from AWD to FWD last night, the FWD light came on but the bind was still there. So I started to drive in a figure 8 and I felt something pop/clunk/release....bind went away and she turns like a dream....in FWD.

 

From what I've read in other threads, this leaves me to believe that the Duty C is working properly and that I need to look at the rear extension housing. Any thoughts on that? Should I try doing a few more fluid changes? Just stick with FWD till I can swap out the rear extension with the one off my old tranny, which had NO torque bind (and should I replace the Duty C too while I'm in there)?

 

Thanks,

Tyler

[CNY_Dave]

Sounds like the transfer clutch basket is grooved.

 

Dave

[mdjdc]

The clunk you heard could very well have been the transfer clutch basket shearing off the shaft. I had a car do that and since there was no power to the rear wheels, there was no torque bind. If I were you, I would dig into the extension housing and look at the parts. I would want to know what I was dealing with, just so as not to damage a good tranny. The entire process tokk me 2.5 hours and that was on jack stands with manual tools.

 

Good Luck

[tforce]

I guess I'll put back into AWD and see if the bind comes back to make sure I didn't break anything and then put it back in FWD. Am I ok to keep driving it in FWD till I can work on the extension housing? Should I replace the Duty C while I've got the extension housing off just to be safe?

[mdjdc]

Just swap in the parts off your old tranny. If th AWD was working fine then you won't have any issues. A quick and simple fix. A few hours and you are done.

 

You should be fine driving the car for a few days. The onw I fixed had been broken for a good while when I got into it and it is still running fine today over a year later.

[tforce]

Just swap in the parts off your old tranny. If th AWD was working fine then you won't have any issues. A quick and simple fix. A few hours and you are done.

 

You should be fine driving the car for a few days. The onw I fixed had been broken for a good while when I got into it and it is still running fine today over a year later.

 

Was that one driven for awhile with the problems before you fixed it? I only ask because the fiance wants to drive the car to the beach in a week, several hundred miles. I won't be able to do any work to it by then cuz I'm layed up from knee surgery...which also means it's my only driver right now because I'm not allowed to drive a stick. If I keep it in FWD shouldn't I be fine for awhile?

[mdjdc]

The one I fixed was broken for some time before I was able to fix it. I didn't realize what the problem was until I actually got into it. Several hundred miles won't be a problem.

[tforce]

The one I fixed was broken for some time before I was able to fix it. I didn't realize what the problem was until I actually got into it. Several hundred miles won't be a problem.

 

Nice. Thanks for the help. Can't wait to be done with this project so I can move on. Still need to yank the engine one of these days and take care of all the oil leaks. Maybe finish my EJ swap sometime this decade too.

[tforce]

Refer to next post....accidentally double posted.

Edited November 8, 2010 by tforce
accidentally double posted.

[tforce]

Pulled the rear ext housing and drive shaft/hub off the old tranny and smoothed out all the grooves. I pulled the same stuff off the tranny in the car and took it's duty C and put that into the housing from the old tranny. Swapped in the shaft/hub and housing from the old tranny. For the most part I think things are good but I think I may still have a slight "tensing" in tight turns. Just drove it home from the shop after finishing the repairs last night so I'm not sure yet....never dealt with this before so still learning what to look for.

 

I'm wondering if the Duty C is going bad (even though the FWD light stayed on solid with the fuse in) The reason is that the grooves on the Drive Hub from the tranny that was binding were different than the grooves in the tranny that didn't have any bind. They were single narrow grooves and the front most groove (closest to the front of the car) was 2-3 times deeper than the other grooves. The tranny that was wasn't binding had grooves that were pretty even in depth and they were more like 2 grooves side by side...so the driven rings were moving.

 

Also, I had been driving the car in FWD for awhile and it felt like it was starting to bind a little again right before I did the work.

 

There's one other issue that was there before and still happens. Once in awhile when I shift to park, the car stays in place....like the effect of a hill holder on a manual. Then when I turn the car off it releases. I read another thread about this but still am unsure as to the cause. I've adjusted the shift cable twice now so I know that isn't what's causing it. FWD vs AWD doesn't seem to make a difference. No blinking AT Oil Temp light at start up. Putting in neutral before park usually takes care of it...but not always.

Edited November 8, 2010 by tforce
forgot to mention something

[tforce]

Anyone? Ideas? Thoughts?

[johnceggleston]

Pulled the rear ext housing and drive shaft/hub off the old tranny and smoothed out all the grooves. I pulled the same stuff off the tranny in the car and took it's duty C and put that into the housing from the old tranny. Swapped in the shaft/hub and housing from the old tranny. For the most part I think things are good but I think I may still have a slight "tensing" in tight turns. Just drove it home from the shop after finishing the repairs last night so I'm not sure yet....never dealt with this before so still learning what to look for.

 

I'm wondering if the Duty C is going bad (even though the FWD light stayed on solid with the fuse in) The reason is that the grooves on the Drive Hub from the tranny that was binding were different than the grooves in the tranny that didn't have any bind. They were single narrow grooves and the front most groove (closest to the front of the car) was 2-3 times deeper than the other grooves. The tranny that was wasn't binding had grooves that were pretty even in depth and they were more like 2 grooves side by side...so the driven rings were moving.

 

Also, I had been driving the car in FWD for awhile and it felt like it was starting to bind a little again right before I did the work.

 

There's one other issue that was there before and still happens. Once in awhile when I shift to park, the car stays in place....like the effect of a hill holder on a manual. Then when I turn the car off it releases. I read another thread about this but still am unsure as to the cause. I've adjusted the shift cable twice now so I know that isn't what's causing it. FWD vs AWD doesn't seem to make a difference. No blinking AT Oil Temp light at start up. Putting in neutral before park usually takes care of it...but not always.

 

i dont know about grooves so good luck with that. but it sounds like you have some binding. especially if it releases in neutral or when you turn the car off. did you try changing the fluid before you did the rear extension housing?? my first experience with this was due to GUNK in the trans housing. specifically in the rear extension housing clogging up the duty c fluid passage ways.

 

so if it is gunk i would change the fluid again. (at some point this becomes redundant and wasteful, but i can't hurt .)

[tforce]

i dont know about grooves so good luck with that. but it sounds like you have some binding. especially if it releases in neutral or when you turn the car off. did you try changing the fluid before you did the rear extension housing?? my first experience with this was due to GUNK in the trans housing. specifically in the rear extension housing clogging up the duty c fluid passage ways.

 

so if it is gunk i would change the fluid again. (at some point this becomes redundant and wasteful, but i can't hurt .)

 

It doesn't do it all the time and sometimes putting in neutral 1st will solve it, but not always. I put the tranny in the car in early summer..used tranny...so it got some new fluid then. Then, I had it flushed/serviced by a shop shortly after. Then it got about 5 qts of new fluid with the housing swap. The shop said everything looked good and I didn't see any signs of gunk in the tranny when I was swapping the housing. If it's fluid/gunk related then I've just got back luck....might have that anyhow.

 

The reason I wonder about the condition of the Duty C is that the grooves on the drum I pulled out were really bad...one in particular is probably too deep to grind out. And I had the car in FWD since I discovered the bind. I haven't driven it a lot, less than 3k, but the solenoid was getting used that whole time. But it was working properly as far as I could tell and the FWD light was on the whole time.

[mdjdc]

Does your trans light come on at all at start up? I'm thinking that the light isn't working and that you may, infact, be having a Duty C problem. I have a friend that had a very similar situation and it turned out that the PO had removed several of the dash bulbs to hide problems when he sold the car.

[tforce]

Does your trans light come on at all at start up? I'm thinking that the light isn't working and that you may, infact, be having a Duty C problem. I have a friend that had a very similar situation and it turned out that the PO had removed several of the dash bulbs to hide problems when he sold the car.

 

Ya, the light comes on momentarily at start up just like normal. I'm getting no visual indications of a Duty C problem. Maybe I should put the scan tool on there to see if anything pops up.

 

Is there anything else in an automatic that could go bad and cause this? Like something causing fluid pressure when it shouldn't?

[tforce]

It seems to do it more/worse in FWD than AWD. And the drivetrain still tenses just a little bit in tight corners....worse in reverse. I'm really at a loss here. All I can think of is that the Duty C is going bad and not showing any signs via the AT Oil Temp and FWD lights.

[mdjdc]

Just get in there and replace the duty C and fix the drums and you should be done. Your other option is to do a flush of the tranny and see if that fixes the problem.

[tforce]

Just get in there and replace the duty C and fix the drums and you should be done. Your other option is to do a flush of the tranny and see if that fixes the problem.

 

I just fixed the drum about 2 weeks ago. That's why I'm a little confused. Everything I've read pointed to my tranny having a bad drum but a good Duty C. So I had the tranny serviced/flushed and then I repaired the drum.

 

You said Drums. Should I have done something to the driven drum as well? I pulled the drive drum and rear housing out of my old tranny, ground the grooves out of the teeth and put them into my current tranny. I reused the Duty C from my current tranny since it seemed to be working fine. I still have NO visual indications of a Duty C problem.

 

I just don't want to dive back until I'm sure that it's the Duty C and not something else. Can the Duty start failing and causing problems before you start seeing indications from the FWD or AT Oil Temp light?

[johnceggleston]

Can the Duty start failing and causing problems before you start seeing indications from the FWD or AT Oil Temp light?

 

anything is possible. does the fwd light come on when you put in the fuse? my son's 95 has an intermittent duty c. the fuse in all the time and some times it cures the problem and lights up the FWD and some times it doesn't. so i pulled the rear section of the drive shaft.

 

i don't see how the duty c could cause torque bind just a little with the fuse in and the fwd lit. either it disengages the rear wheels or it doesn't, but who knows. if there is gunk in there limiting or slowing the bleed off of the fluid pressure then maybe it could cause some binding with the fuse in. how did the fluid look?

 

there are 2 more likely possibilities in my opinion: something else is causing what ever it is that you are feeling or you are overly sensitive to the issue.

 

maybe let someone else, another subie owner, test drive it.

 

but sometimes you have to let a problem get worse so it can be diagnosed. i'd drive it and fix it when it needs it & change the atf more often.