96 Legacy engine codes and running issues

[Sternrulez]

OK, first let me state that I have LESS than zero knowledge of car mechanics, so the info that I'm providing is based strictly on the car's behavior and the results of when we hooked it up to "the machine" at the local Advance Auto Parts store:

 

For quite a while now, our 96 Legacy LS has had a very difficult time starting, and must be run for quite a while before we can drive it...otherwise it will hesitate like crazy and more often than not stall completely. The "check engine" light has been on this entire time. We rarely drive the vehicle, as I am disabled and don't drive often at all. Yesterday, we finally got it to Advance Auto for them to check out the codes resulting in the CE light being on, and the following codes were returned: P 0301, P 0302, and P 0115.

 

I'll save any of you kind enough to reply to this the trouble of telling me what they are: I looked them up and found out that they are misfiring of plugs 1 and 2, as well as a engine temp sensor failure. I've also researched the symptoms that we have, and I've found that it's possibly the ignition coil that is bad...OH, I forgot a symptom...occasionally, the car refuses to start (it did yesterday after we left Advance Auto) as if the battery were dead. We put a new battery in last year, so I doubt that is the issue. Once the battery is jumped however, the car starts. I say this because I read somewhere that the ignition coil could overheat and shut down which would ALSO cause the car to refuse to start.

 

We don't have a lot of cash to pour into this car, so my wife and I need to find the cheapest solution possible to get it running at least halfway normally again. If it's TOO expensive, we'll probably end up selling it...we're really on the fence about keeping it, as we're paying more car insurance on this car every month than we are on our 2008 Caliber, and since it's barely used we need to make some hard decisions soon....keep it or let it go.

 

Thank you in advance for any help and insight you can provide for us!

[Durania]

Throw this out as a start: When were the plugs and wires last changed?

[Sternrulez]

Throw this out as a start: When were the plugs and wires last changed?

 

We're pretty sure that it was sometime in 2009. I know for a fact that we haven't put 60K miles on it since they were, which is what I read is the average life of wires..

 

One thing I forgot to add is that in the past 6 months, we've barely put 1000 miles on the car.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Sternrulez
new information

[Mike104]

The Engine Coolant Temp Sensor (P0115) can make it hard to start and run bad until its warmed up. Its about $20 from Rock Auto.

 

Plugs and wires can cause the Misfire codes. Should use Subaru OEM wires or NGK wires and for sure use NGK plugs.

 

Guess you have to balance the cost of repairs/insurance vs car payments.

[Sternrulez]

The Engine Coolant Temp Sensor (P0115) can make it hard to start and run bad until its warmed up. Its about $20 from Rock Auto.

 

Plugs and wires can cause the Misfire codes. Should use Subaru OEM wires or NGK wires and for sure use NGK plugs.

 

Guess you have to balance the cost of repairs/insurance vs car payments.

 

Thanks for the info, Mike! Actually, we were thinking of going down to only 1 car, so it's more an issue of repairs/insurance vs having an extra car, but no matter.

 

Any idea how hard it would be to replace the temp sensor? If they have to tear major sections of the car out to get to it, the labor will be what kills us...lol!

[heartless]

Thanks for the info, Mike! Actually, we were thinking of going down to only 1 car, so it's more an issue of repairs/insurance vs having an extra car, but no matter.

 

Any idea how hard it would be to replace the temp sensor? If they have to tear major sections of the car out to get to it, the labor will be what kills us...lol!

 

Actually, the coolant temp sensor should be VERY easy to get to.

 

Where exactly are you?? Hudson, where?? I am sure there is probably a USMB member near enough to you that could help you out and save you the crazy labor costs of a shop for something so simple. I understand that being disabled may/may not preclude you from it doing it yourself, but it really is a pretty simple job.

[Sternrulez]

Actually, the coolant temp sensor should be VERY easy to get to.

 

Where exactly are you?? Hudson, where?? I am sure there is probably a USMB member near enough to you that could help you out and save you the crazy labor costs of a shop for something so simple. I understand that being disabled may/may not preclude you from it doing it yourself, but it really is a pretty simple job.

 

We live in Hudson PA...near Wilkes-Barre and about a half hour south of Scranton. That would be AWESOME if we could find someone to do it cheaply for us...THANK YOU!

[Olnick]

Definitely replace the ECTS (Engine Coolant Temp Sensor)--it's a relatively cheap fix and will most likely solve a lot of your problems. Not hard to do . . . once you find it and figure out how to get a wrench on it! Get the sensor and see if you can find an independent shop or backyard mechanic to swap it in for you.

 

Also agree with changing the plugs (NGK coppers, they're cheap) and plug wires (Subaru OEM, a bit pricey but worth it).

 

What happens when the car "refuses to start?" Does it not crank over or does it crank but not fire off? If it's the latter a new ECTS might solve the problem.

 

It's worth the effort to get the car running well even if you decide to sell it--it'll sell better!

 

Anyway, good luck and don't hesitate to ask questions here.

[Sternrulez]

Definitely replace the ECTS (Engine Coolant Temp Sensor)--it's a relatively cheap fix and will most likely solve a lot of your problems. Not hard to do . . . once you find it and figure out how to get a wrench on it! Get the sensor and see if you can find an independent shop or backyard mechanic to swap it in for you.

 

Also agree with changing the plugs (NGK coppers, they're cheap) and plug wires (Subaru OEM, a bit pricey but worth it).

 

What happens when the car "refuses to start?" Does it not crank over or does it crank but not fire off? If it's the latter a new ECTS might solve the problem.

 

It's worth the effort to get the car running well even if you decide to sell it--it'll sell better!

 

Anyway, good luck and don't hesitate to ask questions here.

 

What, you mean you're not going to fly in from Hawaii to help us? LMAO!!!

 

Sorry, I should have clarified the 2 different starting situations...the first one is when it tries to crank over but has a really tough time of it. In yesterday's case, you don't even get a clicking noise when you turn the key...it's like the battery is totally dead, even though the other electrical devices work in the car. Perhaps I need multiple items to fix the problems? Thanks for the info!

 

 

OH, I don't mean to doubt anyone here, but in my first post I mentioned that I read the ignition coil could cause it to not start...I say that because in most cases when the "battery dead" issue happens, the car has been run for some time, and it usually happens when it's warmer outside...again, going back to what I read, if the coil overheats, it will shut down and prevent the car from starting. No one has mentioned anything about this yet, so I was just wondering if that's something we should consider or not...thanks!

Edited June 3, 2010 by Sternrulez
addition info

[Olnick]

I'm so sorry my friend--called the airport earlier to book a flight but no one answered (it was a nice day, guess everyone went to the beach!)

 

But in my absence would suggest you try the ECTS and new plugs/wires. I have a feeling that might clear up a lot of your problems. By the way, make sure you get the sensor that talks to the ECU (it usually has a brick red head) and NOT the one that controls the Temp Gauge. There are pics in this thread:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=75009&highlight=ects+coolant+temp+sensor&page=2

 

Then if there's still a starting problem we'll have to deal with it later! I've never had a problem with coils so can't offer any help there. As far as I know they rarely fail.

 

Good luck.

[Fairtax4me]

The ECTS will cause the plugs to foul (too much fuel) and will result in the P030X misfire codes. Definitely get that changed and put some new plugs in it.

 

The staring issue sounds like the contacts inside the starter solenoid. This is a common problem and can be easily remedied by a DIYer with a few basic tools. There are write ups here on the site about how to remove and replace the contacts, and they can usually be bought for less than $15.

 

Of course, I can't seem to find any info about the starters to post right now. I'm sure someone else will in short order.

 

Another idea is corrosion on the battery posts/terminals or a loose connection on the battery or starter. It could also be a poor engine ground cable connection. Standard check for cleanliness and tightness applies here.

[Olnick]

FYI re starter contacts, there are some good pix in here:

 

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41495

 

And if you search starter contacts here on USMB there are a number of threads over the years.

[heartless]

as Olnick already said - start with the ECTS, plugs and wires - ie: the cheap/easy stuff first. Also check the battery cable ends, and ground contacts (known issues on these cars) I had some corrosion buildup on my car's pos cable that caused some starting issues - cleaned it all up (took off that little cover on the pos cable) coated everything with a film of dielectric grease and have had no problems since.

 

Then if you are still having starting problems we can dig a little deeper.

 

Hudson PA is a little far for me too - Hudson WI, on the other hand, would have been easy - only a couple of hours.

 

as for the coil pack - yeah, they dont fail very often, but it does happen. My suggestion for that, if you are bound and determined to change it, would be a used pack from a junkyard (cheap)

[johnceggleston]

it sounds like you have at least 2 problems, starter contacts and the temp sensor, maybe more. if you have the ability to do the repairs yourself, even if you are going to sell the car it makes sense to do them. but if you have to pay retail to have the repairs done you need to weigh that against what the cars is worth repaired and what it is worth as-is. and then subtract the repair cost from the repaired price.

 

if the extra money is worth it then you have your decision.

 

neither of these are major repairs. hopefully you can get it repaired cheap enough so you get some real money out of it or drive it for years to come.

 

good luck.

[Cougar]

Like others have stated already changing out the CTS sensor may fix the trouble causing the P0115 code but then again it may not. The code states it is a circuit problem so the wiring to the sensor needs to be checked for a problem. There may be a bad connection on the contacts for the sensor itself. That is the first place to start the check. Just cleaning the connections may clear the code. Hopefully when the the CTS sensor code is cleared the other codes will clear also but that remains to be seen.

 

The starting issue you are having trouble with has nothing to do with the ignition system. You stated that the starter isn't working at all when this trouble happens so my first suggestion to you for that issue is to remove the battery connections and clean them up using a battery post cleaning brush. So many people overlook this simple area to keep clean and it causes so many problems when neglected. If you still have problems after doing that then the solenoid contacts in the starter may need to be replaced or just get a rebuilt starter since it is getting fairly old now. There is another area that can cause trouble which is the inhibit switch. It is a safety switch for the automatic transmission when starting the engine. The ignition switch provides power to the starter solenoid through the inhibit switch in the START mode. Sometimes the inhibit switch contacts get dirty and cause the kind of trouble you are having at times. Try starting the car in neutral to see if that changes things. Before you do anything with the starter you need to make sure the ignition power is getting to it in the START mode.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Cougar

[Sternrulez]

I'm so sorry my friend--called the airport earlier to book a flight but no one answered (it was a nice day, guess everyone went to the beach!)

 

But in my absence would suggest you try the ECTS and new plugs/wires. I have a feeling that might clear up a lot of your problems. By the way, make sure you get the sensor that talks to the ECU (it usually has a brick red head) and NOT the one that controls the Temp Gauge. There are pics in this thread:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=75009&highlight=ects+coolant+temp+sensor&page=2

 

Then if there's still a starting problem we'll have to deal with it later! I've never had a problem with coils so can't offer any help there. As far as I know they rarely fail.

 

Good luck.

 

great...thanks for the info...AGAIN! We'll start on getting the parts this weekend, so I'll let you know what happens...