John Newton Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 New here, but have been reading posts related to my problem below. I bought a 97 OB Wagon about 3 years ago and it served faithfully until last month when an idler pulley blew. My uncle and I replaced the timing kit but failed on compression tests for all cylinders. As you know with these engines, it's most likely valve damage. A shop quoted me $4400 hundred for a used engine with 80k on it (includes labor, new plugs, wires, hoses). No history on it though or if the HGs have been upgraded. I'm at the point to decide if I should invest in this. I don't have that cash on hand and can manage without wheels with a bike and good bus system. I'd hate to give it up since I love the car. But I don't know what I can get for my car as a non-run from a private buyer. The body's in great shape (few scratches/dings), got a new clutch, everything works (A/C, cruise, power doors/windows etc). Just needs a new engine, since getting a valve job on it (had 115k) would be risky for the money. Any advice on what to ask for it? I may part out the new water pump and timing kit to recoup some cash, then sell as a non-run. But I'd like to ask for a fair price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 New here, but have been reading posts related to my problem below. I bought a 97 OB Wagon about 3 years ago and it served faithfully until last month when an idler pulley blew. My uncle and I replaced the timing kit but failed on compression tests for all cylinders. As you know with these engines, it's most likely valve damage. A shop quoted me $4400 hundred for a used engine with 80k on it (includes labor, new plugs, wires, hoses). No history on it though or if the HGs have been upgraded. I'm at the point to decide if I should invest in this. I don't have that cash on hand and can manage without wheels with a bike and good bus system. I'd hate to give it up since I love the car. But I don't know what I can get for my car as a non-run from a private buyer. The body's in great shape (few scratches/dings), got a new clutch, everything works (A/C, cruise, power doors/windows etc). Just needs a new engine, since getting a valve job on it (had 115k) would be risky for the money. Any advice on what to ask for it? I may part out the new water pump and timing kit to recoup some cash, then sell as a non-run. But I'd like to ask for a fair price. except for the fact that you don't have any money, a valve job on a 115k 2.5L outback is not a bad investment, and probably 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the quoted engine. even less if you and your dad do it together. plus, the only draw back to this engine is the potential for the head gaskets to fail, so doing the valves will eliminate that potential and you will have a car that will go 100k if not 150 or more. pull the engine, remove the heads and send them out to the machine shop, put it back together with all new timing belt parts and stick it back in the car. the machine shop will cost and the timing belt kit and head gaskets will cost but your labor is free. if you can do the timing belt you can probably do the head gaskets. your other option is to install a used 2.2L engine, but the shop will charge about the same as the 2.5L engine. you can do it your self, it's not hard, but you will still want to do a new timing belt kit so that adds to the cost. lots of folks here will give you 800$ for your car as is if you want rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 i'd definitely repair it. they only bend valves, they don't actually damage anything in the engine. i would avoid a used EJ25 like the plague, that's a horrible option, particularly for a horrendous price tag like that. the car is hardly worth it and you'd be paying top dollar to keep it running with a risky motor. bad option. two options i can think of - buy a set of known good used heads or just repair the valves that are in there. if you did the timing belt yourself you could *consider* doing the headgasket yourself. if that's the case, source a set of used heads with good valves and go to town. i even have a set if you were interested. unfortunately that motor, while possible, is annoying to do headgasket on while in the car. do it right and you got a good chance at another 105,000 out of that motor before it needs the next timing belt. new Subaru ONLY headgaskets (they redesigned them, don't use aftermarket), and an ebay timing belt kit with all new pulleys and tensioner and water pump. or - ask the mechanic to do the head job for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Thanks for the advice guys. I've been torn on what to do. I wouldn't be able to pull the engine and do hg's myself, even with the help I had. I'd have to have the shop do it and was considering the cost of that vs. the new engine vs. future expenses down the road. It's got the new t-belt, tensioner, pulleys, and water pump already. It would just need the heads and the cost of the labor involved. Sounds like that's the way to go though. I'll pass on the replacement engine. I've never had to replace heads on a car before, and this was my first timing belt. What's an estimated cost on replacing all of them and labor involved? The timing kits all new already. Just don't know about hg costs... Really appreciate the assist gentlemen. Just love the car and if I can find the cash I'd like to keep it on the road longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobcob Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 The HG's can be done with the engine in the car. A few of the dealership techs I know prefer to do them in the car rather than pulling the engine. A bit tight on the driver's side but it's workable. You can get more clearance by undoing the engine mount on one side and jacking the motor up a little. Reinstall that mount when you're done with that side and then repeat for the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 4400 dollars for an engine with 80k on it going into a old dinosaur that is what, 14 years old now, a 97 has a manufacturer date of 96......thats insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Typical head gasket jobs run $1,000-$1,500. Yours having already had the timing and water pump addressed should run on the low end. Dealer charges roughly $1,000 for head gaskets only. Add to that cost any machine work - if you have the valves repaired that's going to cost additional in parts/labor to install/seat the valves. Or cost for used heads to drop in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 That includes all labor costs, plus the labor for re-doing the timing belt and compression tests, and new hoses, plugs, wires. It's not just 4400 for the engine itself. Nonetheless, there's no background on it, if the hg's have been updated, and what those 80k miles consist of. Either way, didn't really think I'd go that route. I'm shopping around for genuine parts to redo the heads/valves. I see OEM parts distributers and some who say genuine but are out of stock. Harder than I thought it would be... Who's a trusted distributor to get the proper hg's from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 the ONLY supplier to get HG's from is Subaru, directly. you can search this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 http://www.subarupartsforyou.com or http://www.subaruonlineparts.com Are two that I have used and they are genuine Subaru OE parts (online parts sales from dealers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Thanks for the links! I'm at work and haven't been able to search more sites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 3 online subaru parts suppliers. https://www.chaplinssubarugenuineparts.com/oe_parts_cat.html http://www.subarupartsforyou.com/ http://www.1stsubaruparts.com/ suggestion: there are tons of bad 2.5L engines around with bad head gaskets. usually the heads off of these only need to be checked for flatness and re-installed. some need to be machined. having the heads checked and milled may be cheaper than replacing valves. but until you know which and how many cylinders need valves you will not have anything to compare. call a machine shop and see what it takes to have a head checked. one shop that does a fair number of these told me that these heads are so short that they almost never warp, but i do not know if this is true. 2 questions for the rest of the board: how often do overheated 2.5L engines need to have the heads milled? is it a good or bad idea to use "used" valves as replacements, just wondering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 is it a good or bad idea to use "used" valves as replacements, just wondering? As long as they're not bent I don't see why not. Just regrind the seat with a little valve compound. Chuck it in an electric drill and let 'er rip. I'd also be tempted to pull the heads and probably just replace them with good used ones. You can sell the old ones and get a few bucks back. Raise the engine with a jack and it's entirely doable in the car. Do some research on changing a head gasket to get the nitty gritty on what needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 I found online $539 each side for cylinder heads (w/valves, springs, seals, guides). Guessing 6-8 hours work, getting to about $2k for that job. Head Gasket separate? I'll replace the plugs and wires too. Still beats putting in an engine for $4400 that may need that job later on. Wish I could do this myself but I'm not experienced enough and my timing belt helper said the same. Think I'll pull the trigger and ask the shop to get started today. You guys have been a great help with my decision. I really didn't want to let this car go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 Oh, a side note: he had said that there was no compression in ALL cylinders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 (edited) You probably know this, but just in case. Any machine shop can rebuild your heads. Been awhile since i've had a complete head job but it's usually only $200 or less, being DOHC yours might run $300 total for both heads to be resurfaced, valve job, and pressure tested. Probably save at least $500, if not a good bit more. i'm not surprised there's no compression in all cylinders. the valves are at an angle and interfere with each other, not the pistons. so they run into each other, it's not surprising both get tweaked. doesn't take much to keep the valve from seating and sealing compression. that's what makes this an easy repair - the valves just get bent with no major damage like pistons, cylinder side walls, etc that happen on piston-to-valve interference engines. Edited June 4, 2010 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 I'll have them resurface the existing heads and valve job with new hg. I'm glad to know there wouldn't be much of a chance for other damage (pistons, etc). Since the timing kit is all new, and I'll put new plugs/wires (OEM), I'll feel good about this old engine's condition afterward. After all this, then I need to find out where the oil leak is coming from...sigh. Could be oil pan I've heard. I've thought about doing engine gaskets while all this other work is being done at the same time...just more dough though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobcob Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Where are you seeing the oil? If it's at the front on or around the timing belt cover then I'd suspect your crank seal. If it's on the heads then I'd suspect your cam seals or HG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 I don't see it in front or on the heads, but the bottom of the engine is pretty covered. I'll need to spray wash/degrease the bottom to find out where it's coming from, but i started to notice a little bit on the ground and also have had to add a quart every few months right before the timing pulley blew. I was going to clean the engine and take it in right before that happened. Needless to say, the priority changed... I was told it could be as simple as the oil pan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobcob Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 could be oil pan, sump plug, or a loose oil filter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 (edited) I was told it could be as simple as the oil pan... i guess it could be but usually they do not leak. it could be the oil pump / o-ring, crank seal, cam seals, cam cap o-rings, and /or the oil seperator plate on the rear of the engine behind the flex plate. all of these leak over time. forgot to include the valve cover gaskets. when the timing covers come off look for oil stains. when the engine comes out replace all of the above. if it is dripping on the ground, i vote for the oil pump, but do them all anyway. by the way, does any one know the direction of flow for the oil?? does the oil suck up from the pan through the o-ring or does it pump out to the engine through the o-ring?? Edited June 4, 2010 by johnceggleston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Newton Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 The oil filter wasn't loose and I didn't see oil stains when I removed the timing belt covers. I read somewhere else on here about the separator plate as well and thought that could be it. I really wanted to clean the engine though to see if it would have been easy to detect. But since I'm getting the engine pulled for the heads, I might as well replace the engine seals/gaskets. Man, this is adding up. But if I can get a second life on this car it will feel worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 . But since I'm getting the engine pulled for the heads, I might as well replace the engine seals/gaskets. Man, this is adding up. But if I can get a second life on this car it will feel worth it. If the engine is coming out definitely worth doing it now as opposed trying to save a couple $100 to have to take it all apart later and spend even more to change that $15 seal you tried to save money on. Seals/HGs/Timing Belt/Waterpump with repaired heads means another 100k miles without many other issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Good luck, should be easy to tell where the leak is coming from. A leaking seal is going to be obvious when taking the motor apart. An oil pump, cam seal, or headgasket will show obvious signs of leaking at the leakage point while tearing it down. If those are all clean - reseal the oil pan - basically just labor, not too expensive but they dont' leak often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 If the engine is coming out get them to replace the separator plate while they have easy access to it. The plate and all hardware is only $40 or so from a dealer, and almost always in stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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