Ej22 head bolts

[Markus56]

So i have been told several things about replacing the headbolts on an ej22. yes you should, no you dont have to, and i need to know which it is. Someone on here said they are not TTY bolts, but i know that they are. So which is it? replace or no?

 

thanks

[Markus56]

been searching, and it was said that you could reuse the bolts once? I need this car to last another 230000 miles

[johnceggleston]

i too will need to know. and from what i have read ... they are tightened in a similar manner as torque to yield bolts, but apparently the aluminum threads in the block will give up before you can over-torque them. nobody who knows replaces them, every one reuses them.

 

this is the latest understanding that i have read and it sound reasonable to me so i'm going to go with it ..... you can reuse them.

 

how many times have the head gaskets been done before on your engine?

 

when i do mine i plan on only doing them once. if the gaskets fail again, i'm swapping the engine out, or scrapping the car..

[idosubaru]

simple, reuse the head bolts.

 

let us know where you're hearing "don't reuse them" since you're having a hard time deciphering the large amount of experience laden support to reuse them and the limited info to not use them. i don't think it's on any of the subaru boards is it?

 

is this from a friend who knows his stuff and is no doubt the man at poker and racing too! :lol::lol: pure joking there.

 

the masses of Subaru experts reuse headbolts. Subaru does it, Subaru specialty shops do it and those of us (some on here work for Subaru) very well versed in Subaru's with thousands of engines and decades of collective experience on here do it.

 

of course you *can* so if you feel better about it and don't mind the cash, then do it, it's not a big deal. at least you won't have to clean the old ones off. cleaning is my least favorite part of engine work.

Edited June 24, 2010 by grossgary

[johnceggleston]

+1, what he said.

Edited June 24, 2010 by johnceggleston

[Markus56]

It said on the head gasket package, to get new bolts. What they told me in my automotive tech class was to never re-use TTY bolts, which IS what the EJ22 has. So my training is clashing with what a bunch of people on the internet said.

 

 

I trust you guys, but I NEED this car to be right the first time

 

PS, i bought new bolts, but they were 100 DOLLARS! and i pay cost prices, not list! So i am ready to return them if i can

[Olnick]

It said on the head gasket package, to get new bolts.

 

Is that a Subaru OEM package? You might try contacting a dealership service department and ask them what they do.

 

Good luck.

[Markus56]

no. fel-pro gaskets and altrom bolts

[Markus56]

simple, reuse the head bolts.

 

let us know where you're hearing "don't reuse them" since you're having a hard time deciphering the large amount of experience laden support to reuse them and the limited info to not use them. i don't think it's on any of the subaru boards is it?

 

is this from a friend who knows his stuff and is no doubt the man at poker and racing too! :lol::lol: pure joking there.

 

the masses of Subaru experts never reuse headbolts. Subaru doesn't do it, Subaru specialty shops don't do it and those of us (some on here work for Subaru) very well versed in Subaru's with thousands of engines and decades of collective experience on here don't do it.

 

of course you *can* so if you feel better about it and don't mind the cash, then do it, it's not a big deal. at least you won't have to clean the old ones off. cleaning is my least favorite part of engine work.

 

 

wait. what? you're giving mixed messages!

[idosubaru]

ha, nice catch JCE, what a sweet typo, thanks. i edited it...i think!?

 

oh good, more information was exactly what we needed, this is making sense now. return the fel-pro gaskets and get Subaru gaskets, that's the problem.

 

torquing procedures are gasket-dependent. it wouldn't surprise me if they stamp that on every headgasket they make as a CYA. makes me wonder, i have a few fel-pro's for older engines that i know aren't to have head bolts replaced i might look at in the morning if i remember.

 

what the automotive classes don't tell you, because they can't cover that much material or specialize, is the idiosyncrasies of various manufacturers, parts, or specific engines. this is where boards like this are very helpful.

 

Subaru EJ engines are not forgiving of headgaskets so this is one case (pun intended? ) where I would use Subaru OEM headgaskets. It's the EJ25 that's problematic but since Fel-Pro headgaskets are known to fail on EJ25's, I would not want them on any EJ engine.

 

which begs the question - why are they being replaced? EJ22's don't blow headgaskets unless they've been beat - overheated, run out of coolant, etc. hopefully just a project for class or for fun?

 

Just to confuse you - Fel-Pro HG's are actually the gasket of choice for EA and ER series Subaru engines for various reasons that don't matter here. so it's not a one-size-fits all idea nor black-and-white...kind of like life you know!

 

the point remains that Subaru's (and likely each manufacturer) have some parts that should be OEM due to lower quality. look up the thread on thermostats showing the picture of a Subaru t-stat and an aftermarket. one looks like a robust piece of industrial machinery, the other looks like my 2 year old might break it (and at times they're known to cause issues).

 

of course it depends how you work and your preference. if you like quick, cheap, and don't care then do whatever you want. if you want quality work, reliability, etc, then this knowledge helps with repeatability and value. i guess maybe American cars little of this matters since they're not going to make it much longer after a repair anyway.

Edited June 24, 2010 by grossgary

[Olnick]

no. fel-pro gaskets and altrom bolts

 

Could be that Felpro says that on all their head gasket packages, I really don't know. Still think you oughta' ask a dealership what standard practice is. Try calling Jason (Parts Manager at Mike Scarff in Auburn) 866-528-5282--he might know.

[idosubaru]

Still think you oughta' ask a dealership what standard practice is. Try calling Jason (Parts Manager at Mike Scarff in Auburn) 866-528-5282--he might know.

i mentioned that Subaru reuses head bolts.

 

that point is probably gasket dependent or at least it is in other instances. follow the directions of the gasket manufacturer.

 

it seems odd for Fel-Pro to say replace them...except as a CYA which may be why you and I both suggest they just sort of "put it on the package".

 

if you have to replace bolts then subaru becomes cheaper anyway, right?

Edited June 24, 2010 by grossgary

[ShawnW]

But if I had to spend money which I do about once a month at a minimum I would buy Genuine Subaru Head gaskets and let them keep their $100 bolts.

 

I re-use the bolts on every engine from the 70's to present and the factory manuals have never stated to replace them.

[Olnick]

i mentioned that Subaru reuses head bolts.

 

Sorry, we were posting replies at the same time so I wasn't aware of what you said.

 

 

that point is probably gasket dependent or at least it is in other instances.

 

That strikes me as odd. I would think that the engine designer/manufacturer determines torque sequence and values and that aftermarket suppliers are expected to meet those specs (but obviously some don't!)

 

At any rate, I agree with you and Shawn W--stick with Genuine Subaru gaskets and reuse the bolts.

 

Good luck, Markus. You were wise to ask.

[idosubaru]

no need to apologize, we're discussing.

That strikes me as odd.

yeah me too, i've wondered about that before as well. Subaru calls for a retorque of EA82 heads but you don't do it with the Fel-Pro permatorques, hence their value in that application. Maybe that's just due to the older material design and sealing improvements in head gasket technology since EA82's came out, dunno but i'm with you and have wondered how they determine all that.

[Markus56]

reused the bolts, but used the gaskets i had. They were sold by fel-pro, but they had the FHI emblem embossed on them. this needs to be researched if fel-pro repackages FHI gaskets

 

next question for the board:

 

torque specs say to torque bolts 1 & 2 to 21 ft lbs and 3-6 to 11 ft lbs. did that. then to torque bolts 80-90 degrees. is that done by guessing? i know there is a degree spec torque wrench, but i dont have one.

 

What should i do? eyeball it?

Edited June 24, 2010 by Markus56

[GeneralDisorder]

Eyeball it. It's just not that critical. If it were it would say 90* and to use a special tool to insure accuracy. It says "80 to 90" specifically because it's an estimate, not a specific number that has to be measured accurately.

 

These are NOT torque to yeild bolts - in fact there are alternate methods used by many seasoned Subaru mechanics that use real torque values rather than the degree method. The bolts do not stretch - they are threaded into an aluminium block and would rip the threads out of the block long before the steel bolts "yeilded" from torque.

 

GD

[Markus56]

Thank you for the clarification for the torque process.

 

 

All my confusion about the TTY bolts came from this:

 

 

Do I still need to back off the bolts or is there another procedure i should be following? I'm at a standstill because i do not want to screw this up

[idosubaru]

follow the directions you're talking about, that's correct. 80-90 degrees, back off, then final torque, compare it to the torque procedures quoted on here often.

 

that's funny they print TTY on their packaging where have they been?

[eppoh]

Just mark the outside of the socket in 90 degree increments so you can see how far you have turned them.