97 OBW Misfiring! Uhgg.. Hate this car.

[SuBrat84]

So... This 97 Outback 2.5l DOHC has been misfiring again. 1&3. At first it only did it traveling to higher elevations.. then it went away for a long time. (BG Fuel Injection Cleaning Kit?) Then it was VERY intermittent and mostly only did it when starting the car with the AC on.. then it would go away right away. Today it started doing it pretty consistently even with the AC off. I did a lot of searching and there is a LOT of possibilities of what it can be. This joke of a shop that I stupidly let work on my car (Thanks CCR for choosing a CRAP shop for me, you suck, BTW.) Put BKR5E's instead of PFR5B's. And generic plug wires instead of my OEM wires So they could make an extra 80 bux off of me and make sure their work was "covered under their warranty." What a joke. So clearly I need to get OEM plugs and wires on there again. Does anyone have any thoughts why the AC would make the problem worse? Should I get another new knock sensor?(~25k) I'm going to change the fuel filter again as well. I am scared as hell it's the injectors/coil pack/something worse. The timing belts are fairly new and all the pulleys/tensioner were replaced together.

By the way this is a CCR rebuilt engine (3 times) with under 30k on it. Almost everything was replaced. (Not the coil pack, Not the injectors, Not the MAF/MAP(?)) I will go after my "warranty" as a last resort / worst case scenario. If I never have to deal with CCR again I will die a happy man.

Thanks for your time everyone.. I hope I'm not beating the proverbial dead horse with this topic.

[Rooster2]

Since your misfire is both 1 & 3, I would suspect a bad coil pack. A used one from a wrecking yard, won't cost much. It is not difficult to install. I would install the replacement coil in the parking lot of the wrecking yard.

 

Can you read what brand of plug wires they put on your car? Sometimes the brand name is printed on the wire insulation. If it is a brand that you have never heard of before, then I wouldn't be happy either. I am with you on using OEM wires, however I have found Bosch wires to work well.

[johnceggleston]

Since your misfire is both 1 & 3, I would suspect a bad coil pack. A used one from a wrecking yard, won't cost much. It is not difficult to install. I would install the replacement coil in the parking lot of the wrecking yard.

 

 

i thought the coil was split front and rear, 1-2 together and 3-4 together. if this is right, i would not suspect the coil, but i'm not 100%, just pretty sure.

 

1 and 3 could be a slipped timing belt, but with it being intermittent and only 30k miles i doubt it.

 

if elevation is a good symptom..... how is the wiring for the injectors split up, side to side or front and rear?? could you get a fuel delivery problem on just one side?

[Rooster2]

i thought the coil was split front and rear, 1-2 together and 3-4 together. if this is right, i would not suspect the coil, but i'm not 100%, just pretty sure.

 

1 and 3 could be a slipped timing belt, but with it being intermittent and only 30k miles i doubt it.

 

if elevation is a good symptom..... how is the wiring for the injectors split up, side to side or front and rear?? could you get a fuel delivery problem on just one side?

 

You may be right that the coil split is front and rear, not left and right, as I implied. I guessed at the coil pack, since two plugs are misfiring. I still think it is worth replacing the coil pack. Do you know someone that drives a Subie, that you could borrow their coil pack to try on your car? It would be a cheap test.

 

Suggest you wait until after dark, then open your hood, run the motor, and see if you can see any sparking (shorting) from the plug wires.

[SuBrat84]

The wires are "Super Mag" as far as I can tell. They came apart in pieces. Rubber boots got stuck on the plugs.. It literally took me 6 hours to get all 4 plugs out. For three of them I could shove a 13mm socket in there and somehow manage to pull the rubbers out.. for Cyl #2 i was actually able to get a pair of needle nose pliers in there to grab it. The socket wouldn't "grab" that one. (The "rubber boot" sat all the way down on the plug and only stuck about half way up the plug.. not past it!)

I am worried that it is an injector/injector wiring problem since it is on one side of the engine. Also, since elevation / temperature seems to effect it.

Coil pack is 1/2 3/4 front/back and the resistance is the same across both. Although I'm not sure what spec is.

Basically I'm going to replace the plugs (with oem PFR5B-11's) and the wires with Genuine Subaru. I will also be doing the fuel filter, pcv valve, and knock sensor since I'm in there anyway. If none of that helps the next thing I will be doing is pulling the timing covers to check the belts and inspecting the injector wiring. Does anyone know if you can clean injectors or if you just have to replace them?

 

Also, if anyone has any thoughts on why it would make a high pitch whistle that gets louder (starts around 3800 rpm) the higher the engine revs? (Louder under load too.) It is most audible out the tail pipe. But, it is definitely being generated in the engine somewhere.. I thought it was an exhaust leak.. but I dropped the header pipes.. and amazingly I could still barely hear it over the open headers! Anyone who worked on this engine adamantly denied it being a problem and professed that it was an exhaust leak.. even though I told them it still did it with NO EXHAUST HOOKED UP.

Edited June 25, 2010 by SuBrat84

[idosubaru]

A/C just adds load making any current problem seem worse, it's not likely causing anything.

 

Don't replace the knock sensor unless you're getting a code. If you just replaced it, it should be fine. At most check the angle of installation and torque setting - Subaru has a very specific installation for these that most people say to adhere to.

 

I'd save the fuel injectors for after all this work, maybe it'll run perfect afterwards?

 

Fuel injectors can be cleaned - there are companies you mail them too. RC Engineering is who I use but they're probably on the high end as far as cost. A friend of mine uses a cheaper company...witchdoctor...or witch something or another. You mail them the injectors, they pre-test, clean, rebuild if necessary, and post test them. The sets I've sent have all shown improvements when returned, but I can't say whether it makes a difference at all since I was doing it as part of rebuilds, not to solve any issues and the injectors worked before hand just had lots of age/mileage on them. RC Engineering used to run $20-$30 per injector I think, other places do it for half that I think.

[Rooster2]

The wires are "Super Mag" as far as I can tell. They came apart in pieces. Rubber boots got stuck on the plugs.. It literally took me 6 hours to get all 4 plugs out. For three of them I could shove a 13mm socket in there and somehow manage to pull the rubbers out.. for Cyl #2 i was actually able to get a pair of needle nose pliers in there to grab it. The socket wouldn't "grab" that one. (The "rubber boot" sat all the way down on the plug and only stuck about half way up the plug.. not past it!)

I am worried that it is an injector/injector wiring problem since it is on one side of the engine. Also, since elevation / temperature seems to effect it.

Coil pack is 1/2 3/4 front/back and the resistance is the same across both. Although I'm not sure what spec is.

Basically I'm going to replace the plugs (with oem PFR5B-11's) and the wires with Genuine Subaru. I will also be doing the fuel filter, pcv valve, and knock sensor since I'm in there anyway. If none of that helps the next thing I will be doing is pulling the timing covers to check the belts and inspecting the injector wiring. Does anyone know if you can clean injectors or if you just have to replace them?

 

Also, if anyone has any thoughts on why it would make a high pitch whistle that gets louder (starts around 3800 rpm) the higher the engine revs? (Louder under load too.) It is most audible out the tail pipe. But, it is definitely being generated in the engine somewhere.. I thought it was an exhaust leak.. but I dropped the header pipes.. and amazingly I could still barely hear it over the open headers! Anyone who worked on this engine adamantly denied it being a problem and professed that it was an exhaust leak.. even though I told them it still did it with NO EXHAUST HOOKED UP.

 

As far as that high pitch whistle noise, have you looked really hard, and even felt around, to see if you have a vacuum hose disconnected, or an old vacuum hose with a split in it? That could cause both the whistle noise, and poor driveability. Check all vac lines with the engine running and not running. It is worth a shot to see if this is causing the trouble.

[hankosolder2]

Re: whistling noise at high rpm/ wide throttle openings. My 98 OBW does that as well. Pretty sure the '95 Legacy also does it! Neither have any misfiring issues. It almost sounds as if it's coming from the MAF sensor in the '98. I don't think it's related to your missing issue.

 

If you had funky plug wires, it could have caused the insulation in the coil pack to break down. Since there are so few parts in the ign. system, like the others said- if you do plugs, wires and coil pack you'll have pretty much "wiped out" the whole system and can turn your diagnosis in another direction if that doesn't solve the issue.

 

I have had injectors open up electrically when hot (i.e. no continuity) but I've never experienced that with a Subaru.

 

Nathan

[SuBrat84]

Can't afford the knock sensor right now anyway. I'll check the torque.. does anyone know the spec?

I ordered Plugs, Wires, Fuel Filter, and PCV Valve.. But, I have to wait for them because they were over $60 more expensive locally.. I guess we can live without a car for a few days.

I have looked very extensively for vacuum leaks.. as near as I can tell the whistling sounds like it's coming from inside the heads or block. Like I said, it is most audible coming from the exhaust. So, I don't think it's a vacuum leak. It doesn't SEEM to cause any performance issues.. it's just annoying.

The weird thing is the car was running PERFECTLY 90% of the time.. just the occasional annoying misfire at idle that would go away right away and wouldn't even throw a code or anything.. until yesterday it just became undriveable.

We have our fingers very very crossed that the "wrong" plugs/wires is the culprit. and it is just time for the filter and pcv.

If this doesn't fix it the plan is:

Checking Timing Belts

"Test" coil pack (swap with someone elses, hopefully)

"Fix" injectors

Replace knock sensor

and if none of that works:

Set Car on Fire. Subaru bonfire anyone?

[SuBrat84]

Genuine Subaru - Plugs, Wires, Fuel Filter, "Air Control" (PCV) Valve - Installed.

Car started - with the AC On - Seems fine.

Drove about 20-30 miles today without a problem.

I still want to re-torque the knock sensor as soon as I can find out what the torque value is.

Peanut Butter Jelly Time! :banana::banana::banana:

[lmdew]

If you want a spare intake complete with injector, coil... I have one I just pulled of a 98 2.5 DOHC. $40 and shipping and it's yours.

 

Larry

[1-3-2-4]

Re: whistling noise at high rpm/ wide throttle openings. My 98 OBW does that as well. Pretty sure the '95 Legacy also does it!

My 95 Legacy does not whistle at WOT

[SuBrat84]

Larry - I may take you up on that.

 

New development: The problem came back. It died. It would not start. Codes for misfire 1&3. I could not hear the fuel pump turning. I took the pump out of the tank and turned it on. I could hear it turning. But, it sounded weak. I put it back in. Primed the fuel. It started first try and drove home ~5 miles with the AC on with no problems except it seemed to lack a little power (Maybe because I erased the codes?) Yes, I tried priming the fuel several times before I pulled the pump.. I couldn't get the fuel system to depressurize either.. it had a LOT of pressure when I pulled the line off the pump.. even after cranking the car for a minute with the pump unplugged.

 

Maybe the injectors were stuck shut and depressurizing the system allowed them to open back up?

 

Is it possible that A dying fuel pump would cause 1&3 misfire.. and be dying for the last 20k miles? Maybe it just had something clogged in the impeller?

 

Fuel Pressure Regulator? Fuel Relay? FML?

 

Thoughts, Suggestions, Tip, Tricks, Has anything like this happened to you? I'm at such a loss here...

 

If I won the powerball tomorrow I guarantee I would set this car on fire after pumping it full of ammo from assault rifles.